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Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

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Old 09-13-2008, 12:32 PM
  #1  
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Default Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Gents,
Our thread about the Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus is long. Started on 25 June by RCDent it is nearly on the third place on the hits counter.
Many of you do have read that I am reconstructing the Taurus that’s visible in the crate that was used by Ed during the trip to Africa in April 1962 together with the other standard Taurus.
On that moment already it was the “back up” for Ed, no equipment was in the fuse, no antenna.

I do have a “high resolution” picture of this crate. And I am lucky.
With only this picture I nearly can reconstruct the complete original fuselage of the oldest Taurus ever exists.
Other pictures I mostly use I also show, black and white from Les Fruh and Ed Kazmirski after the first modifications of this first Oldest Taurus on Earth.
Paint scheme but also some distances I did check with the pictures and a fuse of the e-bay auctions.
Ed must have used the Taurus, from which we see the fuselage on the right side in the crate, in 1961, in the period we heard the first time about the Taurus.
Maybe this original was also the eye catcher for Top Flite to kit the plane later.

What can be the thread?
The complete reconstruction process with pictures of the drawings I already show some of in the other Thread, simple calculations (mainly CG check) and construction pictures of the this Taurus.
Next year, Report of the first flights with data logger and measurements.
Proving of the flight characteristics of the first contest Taurus from Ed.

To give the Taurus in this period a recognizable name :

WESTER TAURUS.

If there are members interested let me know and I’ll make the show.
If not? No problem, I will continue the process back stage.
To make you enthusiastic, already some pictures.
Cees
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:04 PM
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WEDJ
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Cees, I was hoping you would do a separate thread to document this plane. Carry on!

Nic

PS - photo of me in about 1971 with a Top Flight kit Taurus
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Nic,

With that beautiful picture of you, Taurus pilot of 1971, about 37 years back in history, I only can say:

"Your wish is my command!"

Cees
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:15 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Yeah Cees, go ahead. The Taurus started it all. Then came everything else. What is the radio in that picture ? TX has the same color as the Pro-Line.

Crank
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:57 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Hi,

That Taurus had an Enya .45 and an MRC radio. Linear servos, 5-wire connections. Silk and dope finish.
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:52 AM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Gents

Construction drawings with feasibility study of the CG.

The construction drawings are nearly complete, so it is possible to make a first calculation and see if the normal position of a CG is possible without any balast.
From every piece of material I did calculate the weight and measured the distance to the CG.

To keep the calculations simple we can assume the cg is not influenced by the wings.
De weight of the main gear on the wings behind the CG, makes the wings neutral, I did check this with my own wings of the (TF) Taurus

Calculation of the sum of weight *distance (torque?) of every part of the tail section has to be the same value as the sum of torques of the nose components.
The sheet calculates the ballast that had to add in the nose (positive), or in the tail (negative) to get a CG on the right position.

First impression is, it is possible with light building techniques of the tail to get the CG on the right position. The yellow values I already manipulated to get this right CG. This will be a continuing process during the building of the prototype.
All the parts that are not in the calculation listed are located around the CG so neutral.
Calculation is with empty tank.

After the fuselage is completed, the new set of wings also will be calculated to reduce also the weight of the wings. I thinks it’s possible to reduce the weight of the spars and ribs, so the new wing get “spare ribs on the spars”!

Cees
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:38 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

To bring others up to speed, (and avoid having to read the whole 31 page Taurus thread), Cees feels strongly that the fuselage on the Taurus on the right in the crate from Ed Kazmirski's estate was the oldest Taurus constructed, and is the same fuselage as the one recently auctioned as the Taurus-2. Later according to Cees, Ed changed the stab and made it much thicker. Ed also designed a very thick wing with a straight trailing edge for this fuselage known as the "carrier wing", (note picture from the aircraft carrier). Even later, Ed went back to a traditional Taurus airfoil...still with a straight trailing edge, and changed the fuselage again to allow proper fit. I have the Taurus II fuselage, (the one Cees feels is from the oldest Taurus). There is evidence the fuselage has been modified for different wing shapes, but to me, it appears the thick wing was the original wing, and the thinner traditional airfoil wing with the straight trailing edge came later. This wing fits the fuselage now, as the pictures show. This wing had a different striped paint scheme. He flew this Taurus II from approximately 1964 on. There are many pictures of it. I'll include a few of the pictures so you can follow the history.

The Wester Taurus has the same look as the Taurus II fuselage, (which is slimmer, trimmer, and 1/2" narrower), but with the original stab the fuse in the crate had. If you look closely, the vertical fin shape and rake of the Taurus II is different from the fin on the Taurus kit. I don't know which of the fins Cees uses on his Wester Taurus. A traditional wing goes with this fuselage rather than the taper wing with straight trailing edge.

So the Wester Taurus is a slimmer, trimmer, Taurus with a traditional wing that as closely as possible approximates the Taurus on the right side of the crate.

I hope I have accurately reflected the gist of Cees's arguement. According to Cee's theory, this is the very first Taurus designed and flown, but it is his theory...it was not proven conclusively to all of us. Some still feel a version of the Taurus on the cover of the January 1963 MAN, and the Taurus of the kit was the first Taurus design.

Cees may be right, but people need to know that not everybody agrees with all his conclusions from the other thread. It is not my intent to say he is not correct, just to inform others that there are other ideas out there.

The Wester Taurus is a handsome aircraft, with a slimmer, trimmer body that will likely be lighter than a standard commonly known Taurus from a kit. I believe Cees referred to it sometimes as Ed's "contest Taurus". It is certainly worth building and flying, but is it "the oldest Taurus on Earth"....I think "the jury is still out".

Duane
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:24 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Nicely summarized.
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Old 09-15-2008, 05:23 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Duane - Is the Taurus being kitted now ?

Crank
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Old 09-15-2008, 07:25 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Yes http://www.homeandhobbysolutions.com...%20Details.htm
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Old 09-15-2008, 10:39 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth


ORIGINAL: crankpin

Duane - Is the Taurus being kitted now ?

Crank
The traditional Taurus has been re-engineered and is being kitted by Jeff at the website listed.

The "Wester Taurus" he is talking about here is a product of Cee's theory, putting his theory down on paper and building it. He wants to create and build what he feels was the VERY FIRST TAURUS created. Some people agree with Cee's idea of the Wester Taurus, (named after him), and some people, (like me) are not so convinced. You'll have to "plow" through the other thread to have the theory explained.

Duane
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:32 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Gents,

It is true, Duane wrote, it is a product of my theory, but we can talk a lot about it and on the end of time we still are not sure and have nothing.
That’s the reason I make a model. Because I am a model airplane builder.

So, this time my project is a scale model! Scale 1:1, just the original plane was 69/70” span.
On the end of the process I can make a picture and see the differences with the plane in the crate.
My reward will be a nice plane that I can call a Taurus, because all the separate parts are all from Taurusses.
Maybe on one moment in the past all these parts really were a Taurus all together, the Taurus that did make his first flight on Thursday, the twenty-third day of November of 1961. Who knows?

A last word:
There is a remarkable and visible detail on the fuselage on the right side in the crate, and that’s the lower thrust line of the K & B engine on the right.
Second detail is that the fuselage on the right side looks “longer”.
That are my motives, so, no more debate, designing and building, that’s my hobby.

SOME DESIGN WORK, THE WING.
My way of construction with pictures of a wing I did make in the past.
1 Picture of the excel program I do calculate the profiles.
2 A picture of the total sheet to calculate all the details of one profile.
3,4 and 5 Printed profiles, glued on plywood, a picture of the Taurus wing in the past.
For the Wester Taurus I want to use balsa plywood for the ribs so calculation of the weight I have to do now and making examples of a several ribs to weight.
Just for who is interested, and it is what KLXMASTER 14 did write in his post about the Vertico II:
“It is fun and interesting to introduce technologies that did not exist back when this aircraft was originally conceived”

Cees
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Old 09-19-2008, 08:07 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Your building techniques are first-rate.

I believe your Wester Taurus will come out lighter than the "traditional" Taurus of the kit with that thin fuselage. I was looking at it the other day...that fuselage is 3-1/4" across, the inside must have look very "crammed " with that huge receiver and 4/5 servos. It would be a narrow area to have to work in NOW.

Duane
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:44 AM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

How did they ever get the model to balance properly?

I realize that the batteries for the old reed sets were much, much larger than what we are used to today, but with that much battery, how did you find room for an 8 ounce fuel tank?


Ed Cregger
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:17 AM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Hello Ed, nice to have your post in my thread,

When Ed did built his first Taurus he just has to calculate the wanted location of the CG just like I did.
His configuration was clear after his first fiasco in 1961. No more up-side-down motor but back to the Orion and one big step to a tricycle gear with short nose and long tailmoment..

There is only one configuration for a short nose with vertical mounted motor I think!
Battery beneath the tank and motor/carb level on centre of the fuel tank. See picture 2
So motor in lowest possible position and tank in highest possible position.

Maybe he did first calculate the complete tail and then the needed length of the nose to get the balance (sum of {distance to CG * weight} of every part) . What he could do to reduce the weight of the relative long tail was laying the bottom line of the tail cone as high as possible. Much higher than the bottom line of the nose, battery compartment.

What I did explain in the thread of Ed Kazmirski's Taurus is the wing of a tricycle plane can be mounted on "no" angle in the fuselage so a higher bottomline of the tailcone is simple possible.

When you design your own airplane the balance is not the problem, problem is the accuracy of calculation and estimate from uncertain factors like materials, covering and painting.
We must remember Ed did design the Orion before so every detail of the weight and moment calculations he already did know.

Biggest problem he could have is tail heavy of the Taurus during or after building because than you have to ad too much weight in the (short) nose .
A pro of his design is the accessibility of the battery which is possible because of the lack/absence of dowels inside the fuse near the wing LE.
And the 8 oz tank? Maybe he did use a 6 oz for his 0.40! And maybe also there was more “bulkhead” in the front before!.
The tank we see in the fuselage of Duane is nearly as wide as the fuselage inside, I can use some more length and keep the formers because of the modern radio equipment.

Duane:
>>
Your building techniques are first-rate
>>

Not all, look at the picture, after the computer did his work, all handicraft.
Cees

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Old 09-26-2008, 03:57 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Gents,
For who is interested!

Some work on the crate picture.

To reconstruct the Wester Taurus I must know the position the picture of the crate is taken.
First action is rotating the picture in his normal view position.
Second, I did rebuild the crate, so we can see the complete crate again.
Third action, draw the raster on the top surface so we do have an impression of the distances of the Taurus in the crate.

(I do also use a raster on the bottom of the crate.)

We see the picture is taken nearly over the diagonal of the crate.
The diagonal is normally divided in two identical lengths by the other diagonal.
On the picture we see these two lengths of the first diagonal in the ratio 35 % and 65 %.
With goniometry we can simple reconstruct angles from the point of view; the point the picture can be taken. I combine this method with other methods to reconstruct the right one for every part of the plane.
On the drawing board I do this action with a much better resolution and this action is still a part of the total drawing actions and control of the dimensions and location of components of the fuselage.

So, for myself I do not have to wait until the plane is finished to know how the picture of my Taurus will look like. I can check the dimensions and positions from the same point of view as the picture is taken and make them identical. Dimensions and distances I cannot reconstruct, I mostly can redesign from dimensions of the wings (root for example,), cylinder head dimensions and so on.

Yes, this is a kit that needs some action before I can start building the plane

Cees
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Old 09-28-2008, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Gents,

Some research work on the taurusses.

In the last post I did show you the angle of the position the picture of the crate probably was taken.
This angle is different for every point in the crate.

I did check my construction drawing now in a 1 : 1 situation on the floor.
With a line and the measurement on the crate picture I reconstruct the distance and point of view from several details from the front side of the fuselage on my construction drawing.

The right angle I calculate and adjust with the ratios of the distances between these” lines of view” from my markers which are right in only one position (of rotating) of the drawing on the floor. This is also because the fuse lays with some nose up position in the crate.

The “Ruler” represents the picture to indicate me de distances on the crate picture.

The backside of the engine compartment and the backside of the cockpit are my markers.

Picture 1 the line fixed on the floor.
Picture 2 the overview from the measurement
Picture 3 top view of the drawing on the floor with, as example, one line of view to the front dowel near the LE of the wing.

Extra note:
Some extra measurement and calculation I have to do because the point of view is not exact in the side surface of the fuselage of the Taurus in crate (some 3D effect), but the results are interesting already to see.
I do not think this will change the conclusions, only the corrections I have to make.

Results:
See picture 4.
Blue markings are the results. Green circles do mark the distances to check. Red so it was, blue the positions it has to be when compare with the crate picture.
To get this result I had to change the drawing of the fuselage near the leading edge of the Wing. I did make a former near the LE of the wing and also a other position of the dowel , lower in the fuse. So the front dowel I already did give a lower position, but we see on the measurement, not yet enough.
(When compare this with Taurus II, we also did find remarks of something like a former on the same location!)

Before I really change the drawing I do check all the values again and measure the distances of the crate picture with higher accuracy and more calculation also with the rasters.

Of course I also check my results with other drawings so also with the Top Flite Taurus. Because it is always possible to find another result but!
Look at picture 4, my drawing pencil gives the line of view of the dowel near the TE of a Top Flite Taurus in this situation when compared with my markers!

Picture 5 I did draw the lines of view with the backside motor compartment and dowels as markers on the drawing of the Top Flite Taurus and compare the drawing directly with a part of the crate picture.
I only can find the right ratio of distances between them on a angle of around 60 degrees!! So this is not a reel situation and I also cannot find back the canopy.
So nothing is really proved yet, but it seems impossible the fuse on the right side in the crate looks like a Top Flite Taurus fuselage.

Last remark is, all the measurement is going within small tolerances and my opinion is already the K & B probably has no down thrust when I recalculate the point of view of the cylinder head ( I have no degrees left for the engine!). Probably that will also be my experience when flying the plane in the future

So, you all have to know I am always still prepared on a disappointing result, and also then I will let you know, but, I still can go on with my study with a positive result. When somebody sees a mistake please give me a sign to check and I hope I can correct.

And if I cannot? My Wester Taurus will crash!!!!!!

I can tell you also this is as exciting as building and flying a Taurus because it really seems to be possible to create this Taurus. Construction starts this week most of materials are present.

Cees
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Old 09-29-2008, 04:39 AM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Cees - This is great. All the details, measuring, etc. I am following with great interest.

Crank
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Old 09-29-2008, 01:48 PM
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Hello Crankpin,

It is good to read your reaction, otherswise it feels like a acrobatic show without a safety net.

Like to do the job, but also every solution gives new challenges and insights how to lose the next problem or how to enlarge the accuracy.

After the changes on the construction drawing I consider to do the final measurements again. But in that situation I probably place the construction drawing under the small angle, about 7 degrees, we see the side surface of the fuselage in the crate. I also can copy the curvature of the side surface.
The way to calculate the angle I show you on the picture. These extra corrections gives no complications to do.
I also consider to use my little laser beam and maybe a mask with holes to replace the crate picture.(or holes in the picture himself if I can get a big print-out.)
Another possibility is also probably using a slide projector.
So still a lot of possibilities to enlarge the accuracy.


Second picture is a rev B of the picture of last post.
When I do the job well, I have to project every point in the same/side surface of the fuselage. It also makes the principle more clear.
This does not make the result better, but worse. So this does not change the conclusion!
Cees
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:20 PM
  #20  
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Gents

Control measurements with Italian equipment.

As I often said, the Taurus is “as old as the way to Rome”. Also we know the last engine was Italian.
So, why not use Italian equipment to do another check of the drawing.

PIZZA box cover marker masking plate laser check.

I did perforate the characteristic points in the Pizza box cover (picture 1) and with the laser beam check the characteristic points of the drawing. With this measurement it is also possible to measure the angle of the side view of the fuselage and de angle the picture is taken.
This is a final check before making the last corrections on the drawing.

Pictures and values.

Picture 2, measurement, Pizza Box Cover distance to the laser 1,14 meter. Beam is an animation!!!!
Picture 3, laser beam support, my little Emco lathe. Beam is an animation!!!!

Distance from the Pizza Box Cover to the drawing, CG of the Taurus, 1,35 m
Distance from the beam to the ground 28 cm so 6,5 degrees side view of the fuselage in the crate.

Total distance the picture is taken to the CG of the fuselage on the right side in the crate, 2,49 m.
The angle the picture is taken in the past is 38 degrees, at point of CG of the right side Taurus.

Last picture are real action pictures. The beam illuminates the “markers” through the PBC.
(Pizza Box Cover)

Results are oké, and there is no noticeable difference with the last method with the yarn, only we can see the locations are illuminated with this method.
So I can start building the Wester Taurus after the last corrections of the drawing.

Cees
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:35 PM
  #21  
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Very Interesting!! Good luck in your endeavors!!
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:50 PM
  #22  
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Thanks Atlanta 60,

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Old 10-02-2008, 06:06 AM
  #23  
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

This build is going to be a book - hey, maybe you can get movie rights!

Seriously, I like the methodology very much. Sound engineering and geometric principles
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Old 10-02-2008, 10:42 AM
  #24  
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

WEDJ,

It is all for you, read post 2 and 3!

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Old 10-04-2008, 12:58 AM
  #25  
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Default RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth

Gents

For who was curious how the Wester Taurus would look like after the first corrections, I did make an animation picture in style, “black and white”.
When working on the crate picture I already mentioned the angle of the rudder would be far backwards (we look to de front side of the hanging of the rudder from a point of view on a distance of about 190 cm and 152 cm height!). After the measurement it was 45 degrees. But>>>>>>>>>>>.

Also the fuse was a lot shorter than I did expect, and these are the right proportions of the fuselage for this moment after measurements with the thread.

I think the last point is interesting, because we always talk about the Taurus with the long tail because of the reeds radio, but this crate Taurus does not have a long tail!!!!. The total length is 2 inch shorter than the Top Flite Taurus and de distance between wing TE and stab LE is about 3 inch less!

Another interesting point is, my Orion is an up-scaled Orion with wing and stab dimensions of the Taurus, and what is the distance between wing TE and stab LE?............... 1 inch shorter than the Wester Taurus of this moment so nearly the same.

So the Taurus on the right side of the crate has nearly the same dimensions as the Orion (enlarged) and so we recognizes Ed again, he did not take great risks, when designing his first tricycle planes.

Only he first build his “flop”, we later discover in post 599 page 24 of Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus. It wasn’t a success because that was a tail dragger with a tricycle undercarriage!

And the next probably was? The Wester Taurus.

Of course you are going to read the post :417(page 17), in Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus, and about the taildragger posts 430 (18) and 452 (19).
Maybe you like a funny explanation, then go to: 627 on page 26!


I am working on the construction drawings for some time because these important new elements I have to import in the drawings and then check the complete drawing with the laser.

Another important aspect, the question of Duane is answered now, his question of post : 7, “I don't know which of the fins Cees uses on his Wester Taurus.”

The fin I use we did not see before from this angle and the only place we could see it was on the picture of the crate.
So, for this fin there was no example, it was the example for all the other fins we see later on all the Taurusses!
A REEDS FIN FOR A SPIN !!!!!!!!!!

Warning: All the findings will get a fundament when I can make the picture of my WesterTaurus in the future to compare with the crate Taurus. Until then it is only my theory!!

And am I afraid the Wester Taurus would not fly?
I do not think so, my Orion has a 30 years old Enya 60 4C and the weight is, 9,92 lbs, she flies like a Red and white Angle with Homesickness and even after a dead stick she doesnot refuse to come back to me!

Cees
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