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Mystic Plans

Old 04-04-2013, 06:25 AM
  #26  
ehsanmorshedi
 
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

I believe you may be right but I don't think using a low res triple view instead of a detailed original plan and askin some experienced guys may be braking the laws. especially in the situation which you can not access AMA or othersoursec any way while your banks are restricted and u can not use your credit card. Its just my point of view. If I could surely I would use an original plan.
Old 04-04-2013, 06:43 AM
  #27  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans


ORIGINAL: doxilia


ORIGINAL: rgburrill

AMA has plans for a 63 inch Mystic. Yuo might call them to see if it is the right one.
Taking photos of someone's plan is likely a copyright violation. [:@]
I doubt the AMA has a copy of Hanno's Mystic 60. If they do, we've hit the jackpot! Apparently Hanno's latest WC 60 size design was never published as a plan. Select ARF's and a 30 size kit was however made of his design.

I also doubt taking photo's presents a copyright violation. Photo's are pretty useless when it comes to factors that would affect copyright unless they represent the equivalent of a scan. That said, Hanno would likely be nothing but honored if a small handful of folks were making an effort to re-create his last classic.

Nothing personal rgburrill (Roger?), just my view on things.

David
There is a "Mystic" on the AMA plans list:
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:51 AM
  #28  
doxilia
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Default RE: Mystic Plans


ORIGINAL: ehsanmorshedi

David,

I use 5% and sometimes 10 % nitro fuel so the scaling factor would be 9. But the problem still exist: the airfoil and the thrust angle and wing incidence. Thanks for your mention.

Ehsan
Ehsan,

I had a chance to look at the Mystic airfoil and incidence issues. As you mention, we don't have a reliable source to determine or know exactly what airfoil was used by Hanno in his WC '93 Mystic 60. Barring an email exchange with Hanno himself (which might be a possibility), the choice of airfoil is something that can be decided somewhat independently. So your model wouldn't be an exact replica (which it wouldn't be anyway since Greg's 3-view you'd be building from is based on a photograph) but a reasonably faithful reproduction.

Airfoils

We recently had a chance to do a little research on aerobatic symmetric foils in order to assess what airfoil was being used by the Japanese in a number of their classic aerobats including their semi-scale 120 size FAI classics (Chipmunk, Zlin, Akromaster and Laser). After comparing several designs and their airfoils we determined that they were, by enlarge, using a slight variation on the Helmut Quabeck 14% aerobatic airfoil known as HQ/A-0-14. Basically what Kato (MK) did was to pronounce the LE slightly in all likelihood to improve on the snap entry maneuvers. While I personally haven't flown this airfoil yet, many others have and it is well proven (both in competition and for sport flying) and apparently very good at least for classic pattern designs. It is also more modern than some of the older airfoils such as NACA 0014 (and thicker) and Selig S8035-14 so in a sense well suited to a late AMA/early FAI turn-around design such as Hanno's Mystic. In short, if I were to scratch build a Mystic 60 (or 45 as in your case), I would use the modified HQ MK airfoil. I have posted a picture of the different airfoils I was comparing when doing the research for an MK Super Chipmunk S that we developed. The bottom airfoil is the MK airfoil in question and the one I would use and suggest for the Mystic.

Incidence

As far as wing/stab incidence goes, again, there is no indication of what he might have used. Judging from his previous designs such as the Calypso, Supra Fly and Supra Star though, he likely had a smidgen of positive incidence on the wing and 0 degrees on the stab. Hanno notoriously tweaked this sort of thing extensively even during competition including engine thrust angles which is the reason why many of his competition models didn't have spinners on them. He said it was too inconvenient as it would wind up interfering with the fuse as he changed thrust at will. He recently went through he same sort of exercise in setting up the re-created Austrian Curare ARF and provided extensive details on the best power and radio setup for the new lighter model. In any case, what I would suggest is to build the model with 0.5 degrees of positive wing incidence and 0 degrees of stab incidence. Ideally, with a 60 size (or larger) model, the wing would be built with plug-in panels and incidence adjustors so it could be fine tuned. The Mystic is particularly well suited to this as it basically has a mid-wing fuselage configuration. The fact the wing goes right through the middle of the fuse also makes the plug-in approach more convenient as it provides more room in the fuse for radio gear. I built a pair of Mystic 30's with one piece wings and I wanted to design a CAD version to allow me to scale the design as well as fine tune it to my liking. The first thing that I wanted to do with the design was to take out the one piece wing and build it with plug-in panels. Whether the model is built with a once piece wing or plug-in panels, I would build the fuse as if it had plug-in panels and then, when it came time to fit the one piece wing, cut away the fuse portion that would become a belly pan on the wing.

Thrust

Thrust is much less of an issue especially with the Mystic since it is a fully cowled design. Adjusting thrust is something that can be done as part of the trimming process. I'd design the fuse to allow the use of a standard glass mount (or whatever you have available for the MVVS) with the engine mounted squarely on to it as it should. The down and side thrust can then be set by shimming the engine mount. If you wanted to build-in some thrust into the firewall, I would build in down thrust but not side thrust. I find it much easier to design and build a model with only one thrust angle built into the model and down thrust is generally easier as it allows you to build a symmetric fuse. With built-in side thrust, your fuse ends up being asymmetric in top view (at least from a former perspective). With a cowled design, it is much easier to produce the asymmetry in the glass cowl portion of the model - basically thrust angles in the front "spinner ring" area. I would start with 1 degree of down and right thrust. The 1 degree down thrust can be built in to the FW and any further changes (whether increasing or decreasing) can be done by shimming the engine mount. Side thrust would be produced entirely by shimming the left side of the mount. How much shimming is needed can be determined with a CAD drawn front end.

So in summary my suggestions would be:
[*] MK modified HQ 14% wing airfoil. (Stab I'm still thinking about.)[*] 0.5 degrees positive wing/0 degrees stab.[*] 1 degree down/right engine thrust to start. Down thrust built-in, right thrust adjusted through trimming process.

As far as fuse formers go, you should decide whether you want to build the model with foam decks or all wood. There is a good thread of a Supra Fly 60 build here using foam decks that you might find of interest:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9607575/tm.htm

There is also another SF2500 (the large demo version) scratch build somewhere here that would be interesting to check out. I'll look for the link.

I hope this helps and might provide a starting point for your Mystic build.

David

PS If you send me a PM with your email address, I can send you the airfoil suggested that I drew up in CAD. By the way, the airfoils shown all have 1/32" skins as they were to be used with foam core wings. Naturally, a built-up balsa wing would use thicker sheeting either 1/16" or 2mm.
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:01 AM
  #29  
doxilia
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

ORIGINAL: AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken

There is a ''Mystic'' on the AMA plans list:
Jeff,

no doubt.

What I do doubt is that it's Hanno's Mystic. Maybe someone who has access to that AMA info can shed a little more light on who designed that Mystic and what kind of model it is. I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't even a pattern design.

There are a bunch of designs named Mystic, Illusion, Tsunami, Vortex and the like. Not all of them are classic pattern designs. In fact, there is no copyright on model names as far as I can tell. It appears that there is little copyright on just about anything RC model related come to think of it.

The re-creation of Hanno's Mystic (to whatever extent it can) would be a tribute in my view rather than a copyright violation. The latter concept is more akin to throwing fuel on to a non existent fire. Were there a factory in Asia pumping out Hanno Mystics by the container full, well, that would be a little different.

David

PS BTW, most of the above is not a reply to your post - just further general thoughts on the subject. I didn't intend it to come across as a "skeptical post" on my part.
Old 04-04-2013, 08:05 AM
  #30  
doxilia
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

Ehsan,

PM replied to. Email also sent.

David
Old 04-04-2013, 08:14 AM
  #31  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

This picture was sent to me by a fellow forum member. It seemed appropriate to post it as there are hardly any photos on this thread of Hanno's model.

David
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:10 AM
  #32  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

What I do doubt is that it's Hanno's Mystic.
So do I

Design is credited to "Teuwen" This is probably Chris Teuwen, well known Belgium F3A competitor. He placed 2nd at the 1965 WCs with a model called Trouble. Perhaps this Mystic is a later design.

Ray
Old 04-04-2013, 11:25 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

So I rest my case.

Ray is the maximum authority when it comes to plans, model designs and their history.

But, maybe this AMA Mystic is a classic pattern design after all, just not Hanno's.

David
Old 04-12-2013, 12:23 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

Hi Doxilia
Very interested in your comments on aerofoils - would like to try HQ/A - 0 - 14 on my next classic pattern but can only find 0 - 10 on Profili. Any clue as to where I can get the co-ordinates? A Google search doesn't come up with anything. Thanks, John
Old 04-12-2013, 05:37 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

Ripon,

As with many foil designations, HQ/A-0-14 stands for Helmut Quabeck/Aerobatic-0(camber)-14(% thickness). I'm not very familiar with under cambered airfoils often used in gliders but the 0 is either an index or also a percentage of under camber or asymmetry in the foil (it would be a matter of checking). In our case, the 0 just means "no asymmetry" or put another way, a symmetric airfoil. The 14 is simply the percentage aspect ratio of the airfoil (thickness/chord).

If you have the HQ/A-0 airfoil coordinates available, producing an 8%, 12%, 14% or any other thickness is just a matter of scaling the foil in thickness. Profili can do this easily. That's how I produced my 14% airfoils above.

As a point of interest, Masahiro Kato (of MK kit fame), used a variation on the HQ/A-0 airfoil for ALL of his semi-scale FAI designs. I suspect many of the classic pattern designs might have used the same foil as well. Evidently, there was something special about this foil to him. Come to think of it, HQ might be younger than MK so who knows how things came about.

I hope this helps.

David

Old 04-12-2013, 07:38 AM
  #36  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

Thanks David, didn't realise I could modify them until I went a bit deeper into Profili. Modified HQ 0 - 10 to 0 - 14 and it looks good. Saved it okay but now seem to have lost all my aerofoils database! Wish I had some instructions.
Regards, John
Old 04-12-2013, 09:21 AM
  #37  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

John,

glad to be of help.

What's the model design going to be? Is it just a gut feeling or are you offering kits of the planes you are designing/building? I seem to recall reading a thread on a UK forum regarding a classic you re-created. I might be mistaken.

David
Old 04-13-2013, 03:38 AM
  #38  
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Default RE: Mystic Plans

David
Just finishing Wolfgang Matt's Super Star and a Magnum 80, both with NACA0014 but intend to try HQ A - 0 - 14 on the next model which could be Tiger Tail, Curare or Tiporare 46. Gone off thread here but appreciate your info.
John
Old 04-03-2015, 07:31 AM
  #39  
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Hi every body
A plan of mystic 30 has just been uploaded at outerzone
This is the link
www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=6502

Ehsan
Old 04-03-2015, 11:09 AM
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David will recognise the name of the submitter. Pics of the kit to follow.

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