Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I just acquired one of these kits NIB.

How do they fly?

The wings are foam sheeted. Is there a spar or CF tape that I should bury in the wing? There's no dihedral brace. Sheet them and glass the center section?

Also, the plan shows retracts, but the wing cores are not cut out for the retracts. How do I cut the holes? Where would I purchase retracts for this plane? ANY 60 size retracts? Or is there a SPECIFIC set for this particular plane?

Specs:
Wingspan 64"
Wing Area 730 sq. in.
Length 56.75"
Flying weight 8.5lbs
Power .60

Thanks for any comments. [8D]

dhal22

without a doubt there will be plenty of expert opinions on the classic pattern forum.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I'll ask another moderator to move this to Classic Pattern forum. Thanks.

dhal22

i recommend spring air retracts, if the wings are sheeted then would a 2 3/4"- 3" hole saw work for the servo hole? you could use a hot tube to core your air line, servo wire passageways. the more i think about it crankpin is the one to talk to or rather his thread.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Now there's a classic pattern kit... a glass fuse and belly pan and a set of foam cores.

Lucky they are sheeted!

The rest is a labor of love...

David.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

They aren't sheeted yet. I've done plenty of foam sheeting though. Gonna have to sheet the stabs too. I ain't skeered!!

I downloaded a set of build instructions from Aztec. Maybe not 100% accurate for this particular old kit, but it should help.

Deadstik

My Feedback: (8)

RC,

Great flying plane.. no need for any bracing... just epoxy the sheeted wing halves together. I used Kraft electrics in both of mine... and still have both sets... don't ask what happened... mine were victims of the infamous Green 512 PCM receiver....so sad.. buried so far in the ground...

I used YS power.... truly a Ballistic Pattern plane. The plane is mine taken in 1984 at Fentress NAS, VA. Beach...I was a member of Tidewater Radio Control then...back when pattern was EVERYTHING!!!




Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft

jlkonn

My Feedback: (1)

The Futaba "Green Label" 8SGAP was 256 not 512. The red labels were 512.
I bought my "Green Label" in 1984 from Steve right after they became available.
The price was the same no matter where you bought them. They were what they called
"fair traded". I had absolutely no problems with mine in a Phoenix 6 and later a Hanson Dalotel.
Although I don't fly it anymore I still have the radio.
Sorry to hear you had problems.
JLK

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

That makes more sense. They didn't look sheeted and if they had been, someone must have gotten into the kit before selling it!

Dan,

did you ever have any issues using the Kraft nose gear (I assume mounted inside its foam lined box) behind a firewall with an engine such as piped YS 60? I've heard of issues with excessive vibration causing the gear to fail. The wings of course were not an issue. I'm close to putting two sets of Krafts behind glass Tipo firewalls.

Thanks, David.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Found a label glassed to the inside of the fuse. The label is glassed right up under the canopy.

1976 Aero Composites

I was born in 1971. This darn kit might be almost as old as me!!

What would you guys recommend for power? Current options are Magnum .52 or a TH .75

I might put a header and tuned pipe on either of these motors. Might not.

I'm not really interested in flying pattern with this plane. I hope I don't get tarred and feathered for admitting that in this forum. I really just wanted a "go-fast" airplane that was streamlined and would go like nuts if I put enough HP on the firewall. The fact that this thing is a classic pattern ship is pretty darn cool IMHO, but I don't really care to enter the local pattern contests and compete with it. Just wanted something that looks cool and goes fast.

Retracts are a must. Been looking at retracts on SpringAir website and also looking at Robarts through Tower Hobbies. Pneumatic or mechanical? Seams like mechanical would be a pain unless individual servos were mounted in the wing panels. I'd need 3 servos to work the retracts if I went with mechanical. Thats a lot of weight. But I've never done a plane with retracts, so I might be totally wrong in my thinking. Seams to me a couple airlines hanging out of the center of the wing could be hooked to a tank in the fuse a lot simpler. And 1 servo could be used to work the whole system. How am I doing? [sm=bananahead.gif]

Will this system work?
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJZE3&P=0

It needs these struts:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXES65&P=V

Is that overkill? I'm VERY concerned about weight.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

RCP,

always fascinating to build planes of the same vintage as the builder!

Engine:

The M52 will fly it but not as you want it to. The 75 is probably overkill but better than the 52. Check out Crankpins threads for retract and engine installation photos and commentary. The Phoenix has a relatively skinny fuse and its engine will stick out the side considerably. If the TH is as light as a 61 then I'd say go for it otherwise I'd look for a nice 61 (such as OS SF or a YS FS). You can easily end up with a load of weight off the side (if you include header and pipe as well as cylinder) which needs to be counterbalanced.

Retracts:

Those look like the new lower cost Robarts - nice. I'd just watch out for the robostrut thing - make sure you can get some non scale regular 5/32" struts in there. Otherwise the Spring-Air's are also nice. Mechanicals can be lighter because one additional retract servo (for the nose gear) and linkages can weight less than the accessories for pneumatics but on a 60 size trike gear model - especially with a composite fuse - pneumatic is the way to go. It's just less hassle. Note though that one typically does not use one servo for each main mechanical gear but rather a single servo in the wing center with two pushrods going to the pull tabs of the gear. In fact, in the old days, the same wing servo was used to also actuate the nose gear but it's rather tedious and convoluted. Today it is more sensible to use two servos for mechanicals (mains and nose). Also note that you can use a good micro servo to actuate the valve for pneumatics. In brief, a nice setup would be two aileron outboard servos (one in each panel) and four fuse servos (2 standard for rudder and elevator and 2 micro for throttle and gear).

The Robarts below are probably what you are looking for:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJZE2&P=7

The 520 is the rail/plate belly mount version while the 521 is the firewall mount version. Check the design for which one might work best. In a glass fuse, typically it's easier to get belly mounted nose gear installed but if a recall correctly the Phoenix requires a notch to be made into the wing into which the gear retracts since the nose moment is sorter than needed by the gear. If this is so, then you might be able to get a FW mount nose gear installed more easily - some research is required. Crankpins threads will be very helpful.

Finally, for pneumatics, you might want a quick disconnect for the wing hose T joined to the mains. I don't think it comes with the TH kit.

David.

dhal22

spring airs are available in firewall mount or tank floor mount. i also purchase the restrictor to slow the movement down. i bought the wing disconnects from Tower.

airbusdrvr

I would watch that auction site and the classifieds here. You will come across a NIB YS 61R or AR in a month or two. Then as Deadstik says, you will have a very nice reliable powerful engine. Some will disparage the YS 61 and say that the pump diaphragm may be bad or go bad. Were that to happpen, the diaphragm is still available from YS for about $5.

Free Bird

RCpilot, check out the below thread, it'll answer a lot of your questions.

FB

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6496478/tm.htm

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

FreeBird:
EXCELENT tutorial on getting the retracts in the foam wing. Thanks for the link!!

Doxilia:
Thanks for the heads up and info on the retracts. I might go mechanical, since it is lighter. I see what you mean about using a single servo in the wing and anoother for the nose gear.

The TH .75 weighs almost the same as an OS 61FX. Might be an ounce or two heavier. I plan to mount it upside down and use a Cline regulator. That puts the exhaust out the left side of the plane. I'm thinking a pipe would fit over the top of the wing on the left side of the fuselage. If I can just get the guy at Macs to build the stupid header. Tried to order a header from him last year and he sat on his thumbs for almost 10 weeks. I finally canceled the order. []

I'll cut a hole in the chin area of the fuse to bring in cooling air for the cylinder head.

pitstop000

My Feedback: (26)

You can try Karl Mueller Custom Headers ([email protected]) He can build you anything you want.
I once waited for a header from MACS for over a year, and it wasn't until I talked to them face to face at a trade show that I got my header the following week.
I just recently acquired a Phoenix 8 and I'm considering the different engine/pipe configurations. I always prefer to use RE engines.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

RCP,

TH 75 it is then. If you're going to go with a non standard engine installation (out the right side on the P8), I'd follow Paul's advice and ask Karl to make you a custom header. This would allow you to drop the exhaust and route it back down the centerline of the fuse. Karl's site has some photos of just such a configuration - sweet!

However, If your engine is inverted (not all engines work that well that way - pumped ones tend to work better), you might be able to use a standard side exhaust OS 61FX header (clearance to be established) as I understand Tower made their engines compatible with OS's exhaust bolt spacing - maybe this is only for the 61 and the 75 is compatible with the 75 AX although they might all have the same bolt spacing. With a standard header, you would wind up with the pipe slung under the left wing panel - a nicer configuration in my opinion than the pipe along the fuse side over the wing. Also, having the pipe under the fuse tends to increase the side area improving knife edge flight and leaves a clean slipstream for air over the wing beside the fuse and back to the stab and elevator. Of course, all configuration fly though!

Aside from a round hole in the fuse bottom for the cylinder head I would also make a triangular cutout in the chin for the carb and cylinder fins.

More ideas... David.

Roary m

My Feedback: (67)

If you are going to use a regulator, then maybe crank pressure? You would have a monster.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I have a fairly low time TH 75 thats already been set up to run on the Cline regulator. The backplate is already tapped. Got the Cline sitting here. I would just need the header and tuned pipe. I guess it would look better with the pipe under the wing, but then removal of the wing is going to be a problem. How ya gona get the wing on and off with a pipe running down the bottom of the fuselage? I really don't know for sure where the exhaust port will lay out in relationship to the wing height. Just guessing it will be higher than the top of the wing and thats what led me to thinking I would run the pipe down the side of the fuselage.

I like the idea of a rear exhaust engine, but wouldn't that get in the way of my nose wheel?

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Just talked to the man at Macs. He said he will have a pipe and header out to me in 2 weeks. Apparently when I ordered one last year, his computer was giving him troubles and he couldn't find the program to make the headers. I guess he must use a software program to make or design the parts. Oh well, he said he found the software program and can make the parts now. I'm giggly. He talked me through how to tune the system and was very friendly.

The anticipation is gonna kill me for the next couple weeks.

Looking at other retracts based on you guys' advice. Mechanicals are looking lighter. Complicated is no big deal to me. I don't usually mind engineering linkages and odd stuff. I guess I like the challenge of doing weird or unconventional stuff. Can't be that hard to put mechanical retracts in this plane. Other guys have done it.

pitstop000

My Feedback: (26)

I've seen RE in upright position with pipe exiting in the back of the canopy; a platform was made in the fuse coming off the back of the firewall isolating the pipe from the internals of the plane.
An inverted RE is what I'm hoping to install with the pipe exiting the top of the plane around the back of the canopy area all enclosed in the fuse. A header formed like an S with an offset for the gear/tank area.
I've been giving this some thought but haven't started it yet. Until I have everything together retracts, tank, pipe etc to dry fit everything. I've done this years ago in another plane, just don't know if the p-8
Has enough room

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

If you like engineering feats, then mechanical retracts will definitely give you something to work on. Dave Brown makes some nice mechanicals and of course there are also the venerable MK units - a little harder to find but possible. Hanno Prettner used to run his linkages on mechanical mains straight through the wheel wells (on his Magic for example), instead of above, using a nice little gadget linkage from MK. They are half moon/crescent shaped linkages intended to wrap around the retract servo wheel and connect at the opposite end. This provides a nice way to connect the main pushrods. Hanno used these linkages in the well area as well attaching them to the pull tabs in this way having the pushrods clear the wheel axles when retracted.

For the nose gear, one possibility (if there's enough space) is to use a flat servo installed just rearward of the linkage on the tank plate bottom and use a short 2-3" pushrod. This is very effective but requires the right space.

A RE engine will be a PITA on the P8 - I wouldn't go there. Shorter nose moment makes things tricky in that area of the fuse. You might be right in that the exhaust level might be at or above wing level when the engine is mounted inverted. For such cases, a custom header can be made to drop the exhaust level and pass the pipe under the wing. Macs makes such headers too. Pipes under wings are very standard. Removing/mounting the wing is simply a matter of disconnecting the pipe at both ends - easy to accomplish with soft mounts in the rear and quick disconnect clamps around the header/pipe coupler (e.g. Aerotrend). Many classic pattern models used such a configuration.

David.

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Here is a few picture's of a P-6, just completed. Should do the maiden soon. Rossi 60, Spring-Aire's, 2.4 radio gear. Servo's mounted in wing, but not necessary. I have a picture somewhere, cannot find it now, Phoenix 6 or 8, engine upright, pipe run straight back and angled up thru canopy, nice exit at the top.

Crank

Deadstik

My Feedback: (8)

I've only seen I P8 that had rear exhaust and that was built by Eric Baugher in the early 80s. I remember our conversation in that he said it was a bear to get balanced and get the gear in place. I recall he put in a hatch behind the TE of the wing saddle to get to the receiver and some of the radio gear. The great part of this hobby is anything can be done.. but some of it just takes a LOT longer. Personally, I'd forget the RE engine in a Phoenix... just isn't worth the effort.. especially since it flies so well in a side exhaust configuration.

Have fun with the kit..


Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

[link]http://www.trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/DonLowePhoenix8.jpg[/link]
inverted engine! no big deal


gary