stuntflyr

I agree that having cut wood for a Tiporare is never a waste. Personally I dig the BPA designs better than the older SPA stuff but enjoy both. The jet style, pipe equipped, retractable geared designs just suit my asthetics.
I just started my 70's Kaos (ARF, shouldn't take long) and should fly my 60's P-63 King Cobra SPA legal job this month. My proficiency level meets the performance of these airplanes right now. Should be fun to fly these designs.

I can't wait to fly my Tiporare, it's ready but I'm not to that level yet. Installed recently since it's purchase; a RX, two independent batts, cleaned up the retract links and reinstalled the pipe. I got some 2 and 3 bladed Bolly props to try once I get to testing the pipe. It has a 61 FSR, I'm curious as to the performance at it's 8lbs 8oz with this engine, pipe set-up. I would hate to lose it to something dumb, it is a very nicely built model from a GP kit that I was lucky enough to buy from it's original owner. I'll wait until after summer once I get another 200 flights or so. Here are some pics.
Good luck on yours, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
Chris...

stg61abc

Hi Chris, your plane is just gorgeous. The color scheme is also wonderful, congratulations and the nicests flights to you !

stuntflyr

Thanks stg61abc ,
The model was built by the original owner's father. It was finished last year by the original owner in the color and scheme seen here. I can't take credit for that.
I am adding the Tiporare name, my AMA number, some logos, changing the canopy shape to the original, and having it pinstriped to finish the model. I'll post photos when I complete the project.
Here is a picture of when we went to Arizona to pick up the Tipo, in it's conveyance to it's new home, a Staggerwing Beech. You can see the tail and wingtip behind me, the model went from there all the way to the aft end of the baggage compartment bulkhead, it barely fit. Brother-in-law was so gracious to provide the ride, but I bought the gas!
Chris...

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Hey Chris,

nice set of MK wheels and retracts I gather. Would you be able to post some pictures of that installation and setup?

I'm building a Tipo now and although I'll be using Kraft electric retracts, it's interesting to see how things were done by others.

Cheers, David.

stuntflyr

David,
Just purchased a new camera and should have some along next week. Would like to see pics of yours, as well.
Chris...

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Thanks guys, I'll get back on it this weekend.
I might look for some retracts too, if it's not legal I'll just build it to suit (as well as move the wing up...I guess I just need to draw the upper most surface equal distance from the CL that the stabilizer is).

I did get the new Phoenix V plans printed but I think I'll redraw them first. The originals were drawn by hand and aren't symetric...I guess that's were the fun it though, LOL.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Chris,

I look forward to the pics when you get a chance.

I might do an "assembly thread" post build of the Tipo as I'm a little short on time at the moment. Since there isn't anything too novel about Tipo build's, I might just focus on the details that might differentiate it from others.

Tim,

If you're going to build a Tipo (or an Illusion), you should definitely consider retracts - these BPA ships just aren't right without them. You'll find many on this forum who subscribe to this view.

Oh, one more thing..., make sure you make it a trike lest you want to ignite a few souls in this neck of the woods!

David.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Yuck, no tail draggers here for BPA.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

That's the spirit!

You'll also want one of these... (well, a slightly longer one).

A little off topic, but I can't help it so I'll just go ahead and say it. Of all places, looking up high on the top shelves of my LHS, which is a marvel of dust, disorganization and confusion, I found this little gem - a NIB Hatori #401 tuned pipe (Y00015) for my soon to be put into action pumped YS 45's. Asked how much, he says... how about $35, it's worth $80. Ch-ching... add it to my bill please!

There was also another little gem; a Hatori TP for YS 1.20 FS engines. Though I've never owned a four stroke, I looked at this pipe and thought it would just be fantastic on something like a ST X11 - the primary chamber and length are practically identical to a Mac's 2.5cc!

After a little hydro-carbon inhalation, I'm happy to finally have gotten those pesky aileron servo boxes done - all four of them. Those coreless now have some nice little coats to keep em cozy. [8D]

Happy Easter to all.

David.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Ok, I already need some help[:@]
Here is my build so far

How do I get the front of the plane to curve that sharp without building it up out of separate pieces?

I found some 85* retracts from Robart that might work but I don't know if it would look good at a 5* angle, that would save me about $100. All I would need to do is order the spring/air nose gear from Robart...ideas?

Tim

8178

My Feedback: (17)

I glue the block to the fuse sides with rubber glue and then rough shape the outside with my razor plane and then sand it out. After I have it shaped pretty well I pull the block off and carve out the inside. You can see the detail steps on my Blue Angel thread.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

Mike seems to understand what you're referring to but I didn't.

Before attempting a suggestion, a couple of questions come to mind. First, congratulations on finding triangle stock that looks like that (true to the plans). What I don't understand is that your fuse sides seem to come up flush with the top of the stock rearward of F3 but fall short of it forward of F3. If you're building per plans, the FW (F1) should protrude from the top of the fuse sides. In your picture, the sides appear to be flush with the top of the FW.

Another important detail I noticed is that as pulled, your fuse is skewed. I like to draw centerlines on the formers to align them on the top view and then pull the sides in keeping the formers aligned. It helps to use windex (or dilute ammonia solution) or even warm water on the outsides when pulling thick balsa together like that. It prevents it from being stressed at the F2 location and it molds to the desired curvature. Wet, clamp and leave the balsa to dry. You might want to repeat two or three times before epoxying in your FW.

I'm not sure if your question refers to the fuse sides or fuse top. However, your fuse sides should taper to a narrow width at the nose ring location as shown in the attached file (save it and rename with .pdf extension). Then the fuse top rear ends right around where your stock ends and the front part is built up with three sheets of balsa slanting forward at quite an angle.

Maybe you've decided to build in a different way but your fuse sides seem to be too wide at the nose ring - both above where the three-ply balsa planking is built and below where the fuse chin occurs. If you are following plans and you accidentally made a mistake, it should be too hard to correct at this point. Draw the new outline on the fuse sides by laying the attached file drawing over them and cut the excess wood away. You might also need to build up your fuse sides flush with the top of the stock forward of F3 up to the end of the triangle stock.

Note that the third top forward sheet is the one that produces the "canopy" forward curve; the bottom two sheets should be flat on top. It might also be desirable to produce the two tuck lines along the fuse sides starting from the third balsa sheet canopy level rearward before shaping the nose section to contour - it might be easier to verify symmetry.

The 85* retracts should be just fine. Aside from the fact that toe in and slightly angled in retracts look cool on classics, the wing dihedral will remove most (if not all) of that 5* angle leaving your struts perpendicular to the ground. If you're picking up Robart mains, I would stick to a Robart nose.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

just something else to watch out for - make sure you build the correct amount of down and side thrust into the fuse when installing the FW. If you install it square to the fuse, you could also always add the required angles by shimming your engine mount and/or engine with spacers. The front fuse balsa ring should be installed at the correct angle if you want a concentric spinner. Note that this requires the fuse right side to be slightly shorter at the nose ring.

The order in which to build up the nose (to my mind) would be bottom block followed by fuse chin. I would then tack glue the nose rings onto the spinner backplate and install on to the engine. You'll want a third spacer ring of 1/16" to 3/32" balsa between the ply nose ring and backplate which will be tacked onto the backplate. If you use a mount with symmetric screw locations (e.g. BHE), you can then clamp the engine onto the mount (typically as far back as possible) and slide the mount/engine/rings/backplate combination into the bay area with the cylinder vertical. This should show you whether your mount is flush with the FW when your balsa ring is flush with the fuse sides. Adjust engine on mount as required to obtain this. You can then mark and install your mount, engine and glue the ring assembly to the fuse front. Remove backplate and spacer ring, engine and mount. You can then re-install the mount rotated CCW 90* so the cylinder exits the side (from a cutout made after completing the fuse) and complete the fuse top. You might have to build the top without the mount installed as the top engine mount arm might interfere with the first fuse top balsa sheet.

Be careful to only tack glue the first sheet as the fuse top will then be popped off to carve the interior to provide space for that engine mount arm and to eliminate unwanted material. The attached picture might provide some insight.

If all this was clear beforehand, please just disregard it.

David.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

First, thanks for the congrats on the triangle stock. I have never seen it in what looks like a 30* 60* 90* so I cut my own on the band saw.
You must understand that I didn't know where my wife put the standard lense so I had to use my 105 macro from about 10' away just to get this shot and the whole photo is an optical illusion; however, you were close, the rear triangle stock drops half way below the sides because I had a buddy cut a template on the laser machine and he followed the wrong line when he got to the back. So when I make the other side pieces they will have to be angled in the back. The triangle stock was installed while the plane was upside down on a perfectly level work table with a 1/2" sheet of glass on top.

Again, an optical illusion. If you look to the right of the fuselage there is a black center line drawn on the table. The fuselage was centered over that and is within a 1mm difference front to back (if any at all). The bulkeads were glued to the glass and the sides assembled around them (except the fire wall). Then it was cut loose and flipped over for the triangle stock. Great tip for the firewall. I'll wet it tomorrow and put it back in the clamps. I'm not in a hurry for the FW because I still haven't decided on an engine. I'm hoping someone will take me up on a trade for a new 91 FX...we'll see.

That's what I was wondering. It just seems that it tapers quite a bit in front to be 1 piece of balsa. I was thinking of glueing up some more balsa on the inside before I shape it but you're saying once it's damp for a few days in a row it should bend?

I think this may be an optical illusion too. I set the fuse over the plans and it lines up exactly. In the photo above you can see a red tick mark on the bulkhead that was aligned with the mark on the table. Also the triagle stock has only been tacked in place till the rest of the side pieces are put on.

I was wondering about doing that now. Which also brings up another question, what do you use to as a reference when setting the incidences? I was thinking of drawing a line or gluing a small strip of balsa that can be taken off after the tail, wings, and engine are set.

Ya, I'll stick with the same ones. I may have a problem though. It looks like the ones I have were made for struts so I'll have to get a friend to turn some adapters.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Here are some new photos.
This is a better view of the fuse with the correct lense. If you notice the left section looks a little longer at the tail because I sanded too much on the right to get more mating surface but using a laser and the lines I've layed out they line up fine.
Also you'll see one of the wing panels my wife and I cut today with the Robart spring/air retract. I agree, having a little cant might make it look more like the jet look they emulated.



I'm glad you mentioned dihedral David, because I didn't know there was any...yet.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Here's a better side view



and the landing gear.



This week I'll make the templates for the horizontals and vertical. I've got some feelers out for an engine and I'll work on getting the nose gear and fuel tank. Works heating up so I may not post for a while.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

If I understand correctly, the fuse sides are not cut to the proper size and shape? If so, I don't follow how the stock could be installed upside down - how are the fuse sides leveling if they don't fall flush with the table top?

Several American classics are fairly similar in their construction design. Typically, you would glue the triangle stock to two identical fuse sides laying down flat on the table. The stock is usually flush with the top or bottom fuse sides. With the Tipo, there are two different sizes of stock used on bottom and top. Producing curvature out of the fuse sides when pulling the sides up beside the formers is usually not a problem even with the stock installed on a flat table. Again, moisture (ammonia is better yet) on the outside while pulling, aligning and clamping aids the process. However, note that the Tipo sides are essentially parallel from the FW back to F3 (the section from F2 to FW is slightly curved inward as the FW is just a little narrower than F2) so this shouldn't be much of an issue in the area of the ply doublers. As already mentioned, the section between the FW and the nose rings is the most arced so this is where care must be taken.

Excellent - it sounds like you have a straight fuse although I don't quite follow how the stock was installed without fuse sides flush with the bottom for reference. Are your fuse sides perhaps not complete because of balsa sheet width sizes (e.g., 4 in)? You'll see the template for the fuse sides in the file I attached earlier show that only a section in the bottom tank area is needed to complete them. Completing the sides at the top is not a problem however but usually it is easier to do this before assembling the fuse, this way you can ensure that both sides are identical by cutting/sanding them while held flat together.

I don't follow you here. Where do you want to glue more balsa on the inside? On looking at the fuse sides on the new pictures it looks like the front is cut to proper shape. You then build up as discussed previously. Install your FW at the correct angle. Then, tack glue the bottom block followed by the chin block. You're right in that it might help to pull the bottom nose fuse sides in a bit at the chin to produce a "thinner chin" without removing too much material from the sides when shaping but you should be OK if you tack the bottom block on while clamping the fuse side nose ring area in a bit over the plans. This should give you the right width. The top part should be easier as there is plenty of material there to shape.

The engine can then be used to check for sizing of the nose rings as discussed above. If in doubt, use a thicker balsa ring that can be sanded down a bit until mount/engine/rings/backplate assembly fall flush with the FW and the fuse front simultaneously. Note that the chin block is sanded flat with the fuse side front as are the two top sheets. When you attach the ring assembly, you should see a little balsa all around it which allows you to taper the fuse nose into the rings.

I understand better now. I would complete the fuse sides before proceeding further. You want your side/stock/bulkhead assembly to be gap free and well glued together.

I wouldn't do any shaping until your basic frame is complete. You can't produce tuck lines without having a complete fuse including the nose front top. The incidences are not really related to any of this other than the fact that tuck line marks the 0* incidence for the stab. Note that the tuck line ends short of the stab LE location by about 10" (see plans). The 0* thrust line and tuck line are parallel although the final thrust line is actually angled down 2* (via the FW) to produce down thrust (see note beside spinner). The plans show a positive incidence on the wing but I would install it, like the stab, at 0*. This is actually the design and recommended setup in the latter Great Planes produced glass kits (I'm building a pair of those). If you've already cut out the wing saddle per plans, you'll end up with the positive incidence.

Yea, it looks like the ones you have are made for Robart robostruts. You'll want to use either 5/32" or 3/16" wire struts which are available from Robart or other sources. Make sure you get the coils which turn in the right direction (i.e., one left, one right and one front. The front is often identical to the right if they use spring coils). Of course, you'll also need axles (probably 5/32 in) and collars for mounting the wheels to the struts.

I hope this is of some use, David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Ok,

I get it now. Your sides were cut along the dotted line marking the doubler/triangle stock junction. Mmm... this is not ideal but to remedy this, I would mark the doubler template on to the fuse side template and then use this to cut the fuse side strips that you'll need above the doubler which mates to the triangle stock. Once corrected, lay the fuse on the side view and make sure it matches along the fuse top line.

Before proceeding with the fuse front, I'd install the fuse top rear block with the fuse inverted on your glass table. Check with a spirit level in several places on the fuse bottom (once inverted) to verify symmetry and levelness.

Also, before proceeding with the front, you really want to have your engine, mount and the nose rings already cut and mounted on to the engine. This is particularly important if your engine is "long". If it's a shorter engine, then you can always slide the engine forward on the mount rails to exit the thrust washer from the nose rings the amount required.

BTW, what engine do you want to use? If you have a 91FX, you could actually use it! A little overpowered but similar in size and weight to the 61 FX and 61 SF. A 5% larger Tipo would have been cool with the 91 FX.

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

I see that your plans were downloaded from my Tipo scaling thread - good stuff!

At the risk of sounding "annoyous" (as my daughter would say), I'd strongly recommend keeping your cores in their shucks when working on them. White foam has a nice way of "dimpling" otherwise which would wreck your nice cores and airfoil.

I think I find mains retract installation in foam wings the most laborious and least gratifying part of a pattern build. Once finished though, it does feel and look good! Akin to a raptor tucking in their talons on a dive!

David.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

I'm not doing anything with the nose for now, just trying to figure out how to bend it...like I said, it would be easier to build up some balsa inside the engine compartment (on the sides) just behind the nose ring.
I definitely want to get the engine first because I want to mount it on the firewall and get a distance to the prop to set the right offset on the FW. A longer engine, as you well know, means more offset from the centerline of the FW in order to get the prop to be on centerline after the incidence is set.

I had planed to use the template to cut the top part of the sides since he followed the dashed lines up. I thought about cutting it off but I think I can work around it.

I've heard the engine is not that different in weight. I was thinking of switching the Saito 91 I have in another plane but the engine is inverted and I don't want to install a 2 stroke inverted. I've only ran 4 strokes and gas so I'm not sure about the power of the 2 strokes but it seems to be a bit big. I'm not sure what engine I want but I'm aiming for a 61. I'll look at the OS 91 but I think it's too big (I won it at a swap meet).

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

I see where you want to add the wood now. It's not a bad idea - you could make some balsa doublers in the engine compartment providing some meat for the rings to bond to and then just fair the sides into the rings.

As a crude rule of thumb, the two strokes tend to be about 20-30% more powerful than an equivalent displacement 4 stroke but produce less torque at the same RPM (that would be rabbits per minute today ). Of course, the 2c rev much higher. A 2c 91 would be comparable to a 4c 110-120. I think you're right in that the 91 might be a tad big for the engine compartment. What's interesting is that it actually weighs less than a 61 FX because of the amount and type of materials in the engine (thinner walls and liners). Someone recently built a Curare with a Jett 91 - ballistic power. The engine is however built into a 60 size case. Unfortunately, the Curare met an untimely end due to an elevator linkage problem.

The OS link below briefly compares the engine specs:

http://www.osengines.com/engines/fx.html

Mounting a 2c inverted is not a problem (especially if it's pumped) but the Tipo really wants its engine side mounted. If you're going to run a pipe, it will tuck in under the wing nicely. The 4.5" of stab anhedral are mandatory if using a pipe. Actually I find that available pipes and especially headers tend to guide and limit the choice of 2c 60's for classic pattern designs. OS 61 SF's and YS 61's (all kinds) show up on the auction site from time to time. Webra 61's are also still available.

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

speaking of Webra's, you might be interested in checking this out: 350189926514. You know where.

Also, I have an identical Webra with two carbs (TN and Dynamix) and header which you might be interested in - either trade or purchase.

David.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Wow, check this out http://www.osengines.com/engines/dimension-std.html
The 61 and 91 seem to have the same case just a larger prop 'plate' (can't remember the term right now...work, blah).
I'll check those out.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Made some progress on the LE & TE on the wings. The LE is much thinner than the TE. The landing gear rails go in next then the skin and finally the rounded LE.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

David, I think you've convinced me to use the 91. I'll just have to practice throttle management. I got this prop so I could shave an inch off but I'm still worried about ground clearance and a goofy look. I could go with some 2.5" tires to offset it but we'll see. Anyway, take a look and give me your opinnion.



Tim