Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

I've decided to build the Tipo. I'm going to go to a buddy's and cut the wings. We're going to use blue foam and glass straight to the foam.

I've noticed in the plans the horizontals are anhedral but the plan I got from Trenton RC doesn't show anything about it. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Thanks, Tim

impactiq

My Feedback: (57)

IF you can.... get 1lb dense foam for your build.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

try this:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=7871718

BTW, note that GP and DH give slightly different measurements for anhedral and this, in turn, depends on the location of the pipe (if there is one) or whether it is just a muffled installation. Impactiq's figure is out of the GP manual.

David.

Stripes

My Feedback: (19)

I'm going to second what impactiq said. Try to use 1 lb virgin beadboard if you can. It's lighter. Also, I once cut a wing from blue and it warped badly when removed from the shucks.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Yep, when we cut the top the foam board tried to twist. We got them cut and it looks like they are fine but I'll have to put a meter on them and find out.
I thought we were going to glass right over the foam on the blues but he was saying we still need to sheet...uh, not good. So my wife and I will be cutting some white ones here at the house. We've got a 3/8" thick sheet of glass on the building table (which is also level) so there shouldn't be an excuse for warped wings there.
I lost my book on foam, virgin just means it's not recycled, right?

What about cutting lightening holes in the blue foam?

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

We aren't allowed to run pipes. Is 2" enough? Will it hurt to go with the GP manual...I like the coolness factor

impactiq

My Feedback: (57)

The image I posted is from a original fiberglass WK Hobbies Tiporare. I have tried the above different anhedrals mentioned..... on both glass fuses and wood built.... and the gain was very little. Both with pipe, without pipe, etc.... I'm not saying that there is not any gain to changing the angle.... but there has been many tiporares that were built with the 4 3/8" and have been great fliers..... with pipes and without. In my opinion, the time would be better spent on matching the fuse sides (the reverse curve that goes from nose to tail on each side) and building the plane as straight as you can. Those two reverse curves on each side of the fuse will have more of an effect on the plane flying habits then stab anhedral. WK was the first to produce the production Tipo with Mr Hanson's OK.

As far as your wings/stabs cores go. 1lb virgin (not recycled) dense foam is the only way to go. Put a 2nd flat surface on top of the wing blanks with a little weight before cutting your cores. This will assure the the cores are cut straight. Sheet the wings/stabs with contest grade balsa sheeting. IT adds a ton of rigidness to the cores plus gives a solid foundation to what ever finishing/covering you will be doing later in your project. As far as lightening holes in the cores .... once again personal opinion. I would personally not due it on this style of plane due to the chances of weak areas in the wing. I have had wings done with this style of building... one literally snaped in a high "G" pass and 2nd one had a semi hard landing. Both wings were toast. The weight saved is once again nominal.... but the weight (and time) could be saved and applied somewhere else such as your covering or glassing/painting or choosing your building materals. Just my 2 cents.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

I'd recommend that you read Hanson's Tipo article available for download from the Trenton RC pattern page. If you're set on building a plane for coolness factor, the decision is made. You should know however that Dick Hanson and Dave Brown modified the Tipo (after flying many of them) several times over the years to eventually lead to a design with a higher wing location and reduced anhedral. This model (among others) was known as the Illusion.

Although I haven't built an Illusion (eventually I will), I'd bet that those two changes alone produced a better rolling model with less knife edge coupling. If you're building from scratch, it might be something to consider - modify the fuse to bring the wing max thickness up to the thrust line level. If you do so, reduce the stab anhedral to have the tips barely touch the wing tops when viewed end on from the rear. This should be just about 2". Note that this change puts the wing and stab center lines at the fuse side equidistant from the thust line.

Lightening a 1lb foam core wing which contains retracts is in my opinion the last place to save weight and the best place to produce a wing that will snap (as testified above). Good wood selection and light building will go much further toward a light plane. I'd also consider building ailerons from two ply balsa laminate with CF sandwiched in between. These can then be drilled out along their length to reduce weight. Better yet, produce a wing with ailerons cut out from the sheeted core. Both these methods will yield light, warp free, very stiff ailerons.

Smaller Tipo versions will be built later this year with some of these ideas here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8070218/tm.htm

Have fun! David.

RonMcCormick

My Feedback: (4)

Where is info on the Illusion? Kits, plans, articles, pictures any thing I would love to build one.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Thanks, David. I am not interested and sacrificing performance for what looks good but I need to abide by SPA rules if I want to participate.
Is there another model that was built during this era that has these performance adjustments made?

We can't use retracts, which I might put some in anyway and just keep them locked down. What should I look for in retracts. I guess a plastic framed, light set?

I'm going to wait to build anything else till I discuss this a little more (disappointed my wife, she was ready to cut some more foam).

Tim

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Ron,

yea, that makes two of us!

My understanding is that the Illusion, like the Tipo, was molded and produced by WK Hobbies and probably only ever released as a kit by GP in the early 80's (GP bought the rights to the Tipo and Illusion among other FG fuse designs from WK). No plans that I'm aware of exist (unless DB has some) as the design was essentially a modified Tipo (as described above). The only plans that exist are "shrunken" plans that came with the GP kits (both Tipo and Illusion) showing the essentials. My Tipo kit was one of the earliest and as such didn't even contain the shrunken plans.

I also have never come across any articles on the Illusion but contacting DH or DB might confirm whether one was ever published. Finally, I have also come across very few pictures of finished Illusions and as far as my search on RC forums shows, there isn't a build thread on one - only a few exchanges. In fact, I recently started a thread to see if anyone had any interest or information on the model and it came up short. I did post some pictures of an un-built Illusion on the thread:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8597089/tm.htm

I guess I have further information on that question and will update the one post thread.

With that said, building an Illusion from scratch shouldn't prove to be much more difficult than a Tipo as it would essentially require modifying the wing location and stab anhedral as described above. It is also possible that the wing and stab planform might have changed slightly but I would be surprised. In a nutshell, use the Tipo plans, build the wing and stab, modify the fuse sides and build a belly pan on to the wing. Note that this belly pan could be built as a tunnel to tuck the tuned pipe away as DB did (see photo).

I expect to build two small 25 sized "Illusions" from a short kit I'm working on (one electric, one glow). This short kit might eventually be available as a scaled up 60 size version.

David.

P.S. I consider myself lucky to have come into ownership of an original GP Illusion kit [8D] - it still isn't in my hands though...

P.S.2 Ron & Tim if you need some Tipo/Illusion wing & stab cores, I have sets cut sitting on the shelf. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

I've never built anything around SPA rules so I'm not up to speed on all the details. I understand that a model containing retracts is allowed provided they are not used. As for "alterations" such as stab anhedral I can't say. I haven't checked but Illusions probably should be on the SPA list.

As for retracts, everyone has their preference. The options are primarily mechanical or pneumatic although there are also electric retracts on the market. If I were to purchase a set for a 60 sized glow powered American classic, I would probably go with pneumatic Spring-Air's or Robart's. You will find many modelers on this forum who use these.

Oh... I guess we can't all have wives like yours... "honey, could you please come down and give me a hand with these cores - they are for your plane after all..."

David.

RonMcCormick

My Feedback: (4)

Thanks for the info and photos, now I really want one of these. I have a Curare about 75% complete, I started construction on it in winter of 1978 I quit the hobby by spring. I saw Dave at the 79 Nats (the first year I did not fly or enter any contest) and took a picture of him with what I think is a Tipo so these are the first photos of the Illusion I have seen. These photos are very provocative, lots of subtle changes along with very obvious changes. Im going to finish my Curare and work hard at getting the ingredients to build an Illusion.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Ron, that's a good photo. Have you submitted it to Trenton RC Flyers yet? http://trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/patternt.htm


David, the rules state that it must have been produced before 1975. If DB actually flew the Illusion before 1975 I might be able to get it accepted by requesting the SPA to add the Illusion to the list. The list does not include the Illusion at this time though so I'll work on the wings till I find out what will be accepted. Thanks.

ChiefK

David,

Since the Tipo is NOT considered SPA legal.... (I went round and round with them on this issue), there's no way the Illusion could be SPA legal.

Greg

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Ron,

glad to be of help and inspiration. And great picture of DB at the 79 nats!

That is definitely a Tipo by virtue of the wing location and also the fact that Hanson's Tipo article wasn't published until 1980. I would have been surprised that the Illusion existed by then. On the other hand, I purchased my Tipo from GP in '82 and I believe they first released the kit in '81 although they presumably were available from WK beforehand (1980 time frame). I would venture that DH and DB were testing the Illusion in the '80-'82 time frame with GP releasing the kit in '82.

Attached is a scan of a '82 GP brochure showing both the Tipo and the Illusion. The other photo shows we know who with Tipo in BG (note anhedral) and Illusion in FG (again, note anhedral). This photo also leads one to believe that the stab on the Illusion was larger and that the dihedral was diminished but it's hard to confirm. Further, it's possible that the Illusion had less pronounced and shorter tuck lines at the canopy level.

Later this summer, I should be able to confirm whether the stab is any different from the Tipo and if so, produce cores of it.

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

well that answers that question. Thanks Greg. I assumed the cutoff date was 1980 and that the Tipo was considered SPA. So I guess no Tipo for SPA and certainly no Illusion for it either. BPA is another story...

I should have known given that JK's Deception was first flown in 1975 and published in '78. I'm aware that it was only recently entered into the SPA "Hall of Fame"...

In any case, these models are at the helm of the '80 classic pattern evolution and history themselves (especially in the US).

David.

impactiq

My Feedback: (57)

Dave Brown did the Illusion himself and was a modified Tiporare, which is why the name of the plane is Illusion. WK never kitted the Illusion and GP was the first to due so. Bill Elliott that owned WK Hobbies (for one reason or another) turn the rights over to Great Planes for the Tiporare. Dave Brown modified the Illusion to match what was coming out of the MK kit camp as a effort to meet the changing flying style of pattern flying that was taking place for the time era.

Dick Hanson did his own thing with the Tiporare line and came out with the Tipo 750, Tipo +, Hipo Tipo and Tipo surpass just to name a few. Some of the changes that Hanson made to the Tipo line were longer fuses, different wing tapers, more wing area, optional straight stab vs. anhedral (which required raising the stab, and if you have a fiberglass fuse, there were 2 guide marks molded into the side to determine the stab placement) to more fuse side area. The only Tiporare that did not resemble the classic Tipo lines was the Tipo Surpass. The Surpass looks like a early modern 2 meter plane. I have been lucky enough to have had all of these planes with the exception of the Hipo Tipo which had a funky indent in the side of fuse for the tuned pipe.

I am a firm believer in when you choose a classic design.... stay true to it. It is easy to loose sight of what these planes really are. Part of the fun is if you stay true to the design... you get the true feeling of what its like to be "Back in the day". The Tiporare was a top dog for the time it was designed for, that being the "pattern" being flown at that time (in stock forum.) Dave Brown along with others proved it at the Nats. When the times changed... so did the planes. The funny thing about the Tiporare is it is just a modified Curare.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

Amen, amen brother!

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

In general, I'd agree with these comments. It is nice to build a model such as a Tiporare, call it a Tiporare and have it look like one.

However, if one strictly adheres to this principle, one could also argue that the Illusion ought not to be built, because it is simply an altered Tipo. Hence, in building an Illusion, one wouldn't be staying true to the Tipo design. In fact, we probably shouldn't be building Tipo's at all because they are a North American version of an even older classic Austrian design... Should we think that Dick Hanson was not being true to the Tipo 720 because he coined and built several other variations?

Indeed, models such as the XLT maybe ought not to be built if it is essentially the evolution of an Escape and that in turn was inspired from other earlier American and some Japanese designs. Finally, the UFO, being the evolution of a Dirty Birdy perhaps is also not true to the original and so on and so forth.

Without wanting to sound cynical, the point I'm trying to get at is that all these designs are, in my view, considered classics and whether one builds a Curare a Tipo or an Illusion, one is being true to that particular period of the evolution - it's just a matter of which one is chosen. I wouldn't consider the building of an Illusion as being unfaithful to the Curare. Further, taking any given classic design or combination of them, to inspire a "new" design is part of the creative process and more than acceptable in my view. In fact, this is at the heart of how this hobby evolves.

As scratch builders, part of the fun and curiosity of building a model is also to be able to take license and allow oneself to integrate the things we learn from our experience into a different kind of aircraft. If we do so, I think the important thing is to recognize and credit the inspiration and give the design a different original name. None of this will change the history - it will simply mark the progression of it.

My 2c. David.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Well that was a waste of wood...I might finish building it anyway but now I need to find a legal aircraft.

David, what were their reasons for not allowing it, did it just not go into production soon enough?

Thanks, Tim

ChiefK

Tim,

SPA "Legal" is any pattern plane produced/published prior to 1 Jan 1976. The Tipo came along a few years later and the Illusion later than that. I'm, however, continuing my Tiporare build of an original W-K Hobbies kit (with retracts). As a "novice class" flyer, SPA will let me fly anything I want. I understand that my flights would be scored, but the points would not count toward a "win". I was hoping it would be ready to fly at Greensboro but Ashville is probably more realistic. Yes.... I'll plan to build a SPA legal plane for next year.

Greg
SPA 444

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

SPA or not, I'd think of wood purchased toward a Tipo build as a "good life investment"!

However, Greg has a nice solution if it applies to you. Otherwise, if you absolutely need to build an SPA aircraft from this wood, it shouldn't be too hard to re-purpose it - unless of course, you've already made headway. If you're at the stage of cutting cores, you might like to consider another aircraft that could be built that is SPA legal. Having just built a little Deception, I would think that much of the wood used in a Tipo would actually be similar in a Deception. Of course, your cores would be different.

David.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

I agree, it would be good practice anyway. Thanks for the encouragement, I don't think 1 week would be enough time to build one anyway. LOL.

Gregg G

My Feedback: (7)

Is there anywhere to look to see the underside of Dave's Airplanes?
Thanks
Greg