Old time pattern pictures
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
ORIGINAL: proptop
I've got a fiberglass fuselage version of the Troublemaker...made in the early 70's...I think it was made by Airborne Associates? (or was it Sky Glass? )
IIRC there was the original Troublemaker in 1970 then the Double Trouble a few years later...then I think (pretty sure ) there was a Triple Trouble that later bacame the Intrepid?
I'm almost positive there was a "Triple Trouble" and it must have been around '76 or '77? I saw him fly it at Endicott N.Y. It was red/white/blue with an anhedral stab.
The Intrepid came along after that...sometime in the early 80's wasn't it?
I've got a fiberglass fuselage version of the Troublemaker...made in the early 70's...I think it was made by Airborne Associates? (or was it Sky Glass? )
IIRC there was the original Troublemaker in 1970 then the Double Trouble a few years later...then I think (pretty sure ) there was a Triple Trouble that later bacame the Intrepid?
I'm almost positive there was a "Triple Trouble" and it must have been around '76 or '77? I saw him fly it at Endicott N.Y. It was red/white/blue with an anhedral stab.
The Intrepid came along after that...sometime in the early 80's wasn't it?
Tom
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
Mike,
Was post 3,picture8 taken at Kickapoo woods in Harvey IL.? I can not read the sign, but it does look like that flying Field. I remember going and watching a pattern contest at Kickapoo in the 70's when I was in high school. I live about 15 min. from there.
Jim DeYoung
Was post 3,picture8 taken at Kickapoo woods in Harvey IL.? I can not read the sign, but it does look like that flying Field. I remember going and watching a pattern contest at Kickapoo in the 70's when I was in high school. I live about 15 min. from there.
Jim DeYoung
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
Enjoying the pics....hey when I was a teenager and wasn't building or flying I was reading the covers off magazines.... Anyway, I was talking with my formerly NJ buddy Tom Pirrone last night (used to work for Norm Cassella building Pulsars) and he was asking if I'd heard anything about where Tony Bonetti was....I'd been wondering the same thing and I see that someone a few posts earlier asked the same thing....
Does anyone know where or what happened to Tony Bonetti? ( I always loved the looks of the Intrepid...bet that's one that is hard to find plans for....)
Thank you....
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
bet that's one that is hard to find plans for....)
Ray
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
This was an 8/15/2006 post by Jason Shulman:
ORIGINAL: JAS
I was discussing the 2 pics (Troublemaker & Intrepid) at dinner tonight with Paul and my grandfather and I remembered, Tony is around. I'll give him a call next week and get the scoop. Oh yea, Paul... thanks again for the flight sim time, I know one VERY HAPPY man (and grandson). Oh yea... I'll take that Miss Norway...lol. Someday it'll be legal for SPA.
I was discussing the 2 pics (Troublemaker & Intrepid) at dinner tonight with Paul and my grandfather and I remembered, Tony is around. I'll give him a call next week and get the scoop. Oh yea, Paul... thanks again for the flight sim time, I know one VERY HAPPY man (and grandson). Oh yea... I'll take that Miss Norway...lol. Someday it'll be legal for SPA.
#56
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
ORIGINAL: jim52519
Mike,
Was post 3,picture8 taken at Kickapoo woods in Harvey IL.? I can not read the sign, but it does look like that flying Field. I remember going and watching a pattern contest at Kickapoo in the 70's when I was in high school. I live about 15 min. from there.
Jim DeYoung
Mike,
Was post 3,picture8 taken at Kickapoo woods in Harvey IL.? I can not read the sign, but it does look like that flying Field. I remember going and watching a pattern contest at Kickapoo in the 70's when I was in high school. I live about 15 min. from there.
Jim DeYoung
That was a great contest that ran for many many years. That area had a nice group of pattern nuts. Good eye dude!!!! Mike
#59
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
ORIGINAL: Trisquire
Could someone identify this plane for me? It looks a little 'Mach 1-ish', but the rudder is different.
Tom
Could someone identify this plane for me? It looks a little 'Mach 1-ish', but the rudder is different.
Tom
#61
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
Tom the real story is the plane was made from the original Mach 1 plans. The red and white scheme on Norm's famous Mach 1 has a number 2 on the side. It was actually the second version of the Mach 1 and was a plane that went thru some changes mostly to the fuse. Like a lot less side area aft of the wing to help in crosswinds.
What almost nobody knows is Norm designed and actual Mach 2. It had a swept wing and he seemingly hated the plane from the get go and never flew it that much. The Mach 3 was a plane that a number of us built and I actually had some success with it.
It had a shorter wing span and a very thick wing. I can't find a picture of it. It was a great flyer but it was about the time when Norm was going thru a lot of changes in his life and pretty much threw in the towel on pattern. He didn't compete for that many years but he really left his mark in the history of the sport. His intellegence and skill was something to witness. I wish I had been a little older and mature so I could have enjoyed it better.
Mike
What almost nobody knows is Norm designed and actual Mach 2. It had a swept wing and he seemingly hated the plane from the get go and never flew it that much. The Mach 3 was a plane that a number of us built and I actually had some success with it.
It had a shorter wing span and a very thick wing. I can't find a picture of it. It was a great flyer but it was about the time when Norm was going thru a lot of changes in his life and pretty much threw in the towel on pattern. He didn't compete for that many years but he really left his mark in the history of the sport. His intellegence and skill was something to witness. I wish I had been a little older and mature so I could have enjoyed it better.
Mike
#63
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
Veeerrryyy interesting...
We had 2 Mach 1's in our club back in the mid 70's...one guy had a Webra speed in his and I always loved the way it flew...
There was also a Mach 8 that came along sometime later...it looked very much like the airplane in the above pic.
(after looking at that pic some more, I realize that that plane is too big to be "40 sized" )
The Mach 8 was featured in RCM I believe?
We had 2 Mach 1's in our club back in the mid 70's...one guy had a Webra speed in his and I always loved the way it flew...
There was also a Mach 8 that came along sometime later...it looked very much like the airplane in the above pic.
(after looking at that pic some more, I realize that that plane is too big to be "40 sized" )
The Mach 8 was featured in RCM I believe?
#64
RE: Old time pattern pictures
Mike and gents,
In my thread: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest taurus on Earth on Page 11 post 260 I do show my simple way of compare the fuselages of planes to get an impression of the sensitivity for crosswind.
Too much surface behind the CG does makes a plane too much weathervane.
With a three wheel (nose wheel) undercarriage and too much cross wind it is also impossible to do the proto taxi maneuver.
The weight of the thick paper/material is representative for side surface without difficult calculations. The neutral point is balance position on the “knife edgeâ€.
Important to know the both models in my situations are (also) nearly the same shape.
So an impression before flying a new plane.
This is also another factor as direction stability because than also shape of the fuse and swept back wings etc, are much important.
Cees
ORIGINAL: mups53
Tom the real story is the plane was made from the original Mach 1 plans. The red and white scheme on Norm's famous Mach 1 has a number 2 on the side. It was actually the second version of the Mach 1 and was a plane that went thru some changes mostly to the fuse. Like a lot less side area aft of the wing to help in crosswinds.
What almost nobody knows is Norm designed and actual Mach 2. It had a swept wing and he seemingly hated the plane from the get go and never flew it that much. The Mach 3 was a plane that a number of us built and I actually had some success with it.
It had a shorter wing span and a very thick wing. I can't find a picture of it. It was a great flyer but it was about the time when Norm was going thru a lot of changes in his life and pretty much threw in the towel on pattern. He didn't compete for that many years but he really left his mark in the history of the sport. His intellegence and skill was something to witness. I wish I had been a little older and mature so I could have enjoyed it better.
Mike
Tom the real story is the plane was made from the original Mach 1 plans. The red and white scheme on Norm's famous Mach 1 has a number 2 on the side. It was actually the second version of the Mach 1 and was a plane that went thru some changes mostly to the fuse. Like a lot less side area aft of the wing to help in crosswinds.
What almost nobody knows is Norm designed and actual Mach 2. It had a swept wing and he seemingly hated the plane from the get go and never flew it that much. The Mach 3 was a plane that a number of us built and I actually had some success with it.
It had a shorter wing span and a very thick wing. I can't find a picture of it. It was a great flyer but it was about the time when Norm was going thru a lot of changes in his life and pretty much threw in the towel on pattern. He didn't compete for that many years but he really left his mark in the history of the sport. His intellegence and skill was something to witness. I wish I had been a little older and mature so I could have enjoyed it better.
Mike
In my thread: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest taurus on Earth on Page 11 post 260 I do show my simple way of compare the fuselages of planes to get an impression of the sensitivity for crosswind.
Too much surface behind the CG does makes a plane too much weathervane.
With a three wheel (nose wheel) undercarriage and too much cross wind it is also impossible to do the proto taxi maneuver.
The weight of the thick paper/material is representative for side surface without difficult calculations. The neutral point is balance position on the “knife edgeâ€.
Important to know the both models in my situations are (also) nearly the same shape.
So an impression before flying a new plane.
This is also another factor as direction stability because than also shape of the fuse and swept back wings etc, are much important.
Cees
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
ORIGINAL: proptop
Veeerrryyy interesting...
We had 2 Mach 1's in our club back in the mid 70's...one guy had a Webra speed in his and I always loved the way it flew...
There was also a Mach 8 that came along sometime later...it looked very much like the airplane in the above pic.
(after looking at that pic some more, I realize that that plane is too big to be "40 sized" )
The Mach 8 was featured in RCM I believe?
Veeerrryyy interesting...
We had 2 Mach 1's in our club back in the mid 70's...one guy had a Webra speed in his and I always loved the way it flew...
There was also a Mach 8 that came along sometime later...it looked very much like the airplane in the above pic.
(after looking at that pic some more, I realize that that plane is too big to be "40 sized" )
The Mach 8 was featured in RCM I believe?
#67
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
great photos, takes me back many years. Wondering where I can look at the rules for classic pattern. Interested in knowing if retracts can be used if the model originally was equipped with them. Thanks
#69
RE: Old time pattern pictures
degray,
Have no attention for post 68 ,
Ignore, this was his own post in: Ed Kazmirski's Taurus, as a response on my posts,
Are you interested in Pattern Flying? Look for the rules of the different organizations in the USA, I did read a lot on RCU,
Ballistic Pattern flying Association (BPA) is maybe most interesting for you, not for me in the Netherlands.
See their website with slogan:
My gear up, but I think it is not within the rules of any organization, so I call it "sport", the Orion with retracts, see the pictures.
Ed Kazmirski's Champion Ship of 1960, after modifications!
My idea to build this ship is generated by Jim Messer in the past, in a period to build "variants" of the Taurus, bigger, faster.
See the thread: Top Flite Taurus, page 2 post 50, April, 2004.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_48..._2/key_/tm.htm
When you read Jim's post 50:
"It has a rear exhaust which interferes with the nose wheel, so have decided this one has to be a tail dragger."
"The ailerons will extend from rib 4 1/2 to 12, and will be wider than usual. If possible, as I get into it, theses will be Friese type, as per the real J-3 Cub. I like these alileons better than any other, so that's the plan."
And that was interesting because Jim did step back to the Orion without writing that down, Taurus, taildragger with frise (no friese!) ailerons.
My Orion has the wing outline dimensions of the Taurus, so a little bigger than the "real Orion" and the modifications are "unlimited", even the wingloading.
Of course my Orion does have the original frise ailerons just the Orion did have. Some people like them, other people not: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_76...tm.htm#7799557
When we read UStik's post 330:
"the ailerons you show on your Orion seem to be modified Frises, just like the Cessnas have because they are so simple and easy to build. BTW, to me they seem to be a rave of the 1960 like the swept rudder."
UStik only does fly "simulators", never Orion with "frises", so did "bail out" the discussion in post 334. (modified Frises? there are dozens of different frises!)
It is difficult to keep the real inventions of the Old Time Pattern alive when I read these kind of posts from UStik!
The pictures of that period are less, most black and white, and does not show us enough details!
That's why I show modern "Old time pattern pictures" and stories.
(have attention for the smoke of picture 3, ENYA 4 stroke 0.60 (1980?) nearly without an exhaust muffler)
Ed and Jim did know it all!
Cees
Have no attention for post 68 ,
ORIGINAL: dhal22
just remember, the thread title says old time pattern pictures.
just remember, the thread title says old time pattern pictures.
ORIGINAL: dhal22
this thread is a soap opera, please continue!! i don't really have an interest in the plane but any thread with cees is guaranteed to have issues. makes for good reading!!
this thread is a soap opera, please continue!! i don't really have an interest in the plane but any thread with cees is guaranteed to have issues. makes for good reading!!
In reply to Taurus Flyer
Are you interested in Pattern Flying? Look for the rules of the different organizations in the USA, I did read a lot on RCU,
Ballistic Pattern flying Association (BPA) is maybe most interesting for you, not for me in the Netherlands.
See their website with slogan:
GEAR UP FOR SPEED
http://www.ballisticpattern.com/My gear up, but I think it is not within the rules of any organization, so I call it "sport", the Orion with retracts, see the pictures.
Ed Kazmirski's Champion Ship of 1960, after modifications!
My idea to build this ship is generated by Jim Messer in the past, in a period to build "variants" of the Taurus, bigger, faster.
See the thread: Top Flite Taurus, page 2 post 50, April, 2004.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_48..._2/key_/tm.htm
When you read Jim's post 50:
"It has a rear exhaust which interferes with the nose wheel, so have decided this one has to be a tail dragger."
"The ailerons will extend from rib 4 1/2 to 12, and will be wider than usual. If possible, as I get into it, theses will be Friese type, as per the real J-3 Cub. I like these alileons better than any other, so that's the plan."
And that was interesting because Jim did step back to the Orion without writing that down, Taurus, taildragger with frise (no friese!) ailerons.
My Orion has the wing outline dimensions of the Taurus, so a little bigger than the "real Orion" and the modifications are "unlimited", even the wingloading.
Of course my Orion does have the original frise ailerons just the Orion did have. Some people like them, other people not: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_76...tm.htm#7799557
When we read UStik's post 330:
"the ailerons you show on your Orion seem to be modified Frises, just like the Cessnas have because they are so simple and easy to build. BTW, to me they seem to be a rave of the 1960 like the swept rudder."
UStik only does fly "simulators", never Orion with "frises", so did "bail out" the discussion in post 334. (modified Frises? there are dozens of different frises!)
It is difficult to keep the real inventions of the Old Time Pattern alive when I read these kind of posts from UStik!
The pictures of that period are less, most black and white, and does not show us enough details!
That's why I show modern "Old time pattern pictures" and stories.
(have attention for the smoke of picture 3, ENYA 4 stroke 0.60 (1980?) nearly without an exhaust muffler)
Ed and Jim did know it all!
Cees
#71
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
Hi,
Had a Mach 1 I bult in winter 1975-1976. See images below. It flew very good. Competed with it in Swedish F3A championship summer 1977 (I was 16 years old then). Rossi 60 with rear exhaust and pipe, adjustable in flight needle, Goldberg rectracts, EK-logictrol Super Pro 7 ch RC system. I later changed to a Rossi 60 with rear exhaust and pipe (pipe was then through/inside the canopy) and I also made modification to the stab so I gave it negative V-shape like Curare pattern plane had. It was very fast with this setup.
It was a great time.
/Bo
Had a Mach 1 I bult in winter 1975-1976. See images below. It flew very good. Competed with it in Swedish F3A championship summer 1977 (I was 16 years old then). Rossi 60 with rear exhaust and pipe, adjustable in flight needle, Goldberg rectracts, EK-logictrol Super Pro 7 ch RC system. I later changed to a Rossi 60 with rear exhaust and pipe (pipe was then through/inside the canopy) and I also made modification to the stab so I gave it negative V-shape like Curare pattern plane had. It was very fast with this setup.
It was a great time.
/Bo
#73
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
Hi Mike,
The "dirt" is from the exhausts leaving the pipe. I do not know what You run 2-stroke 10 cc engines on today but back in 1970th we ran them on 80 % Methanol and 20 % Castrol M 2-stroke oil (based on recin oil) and sometimes also some percentage nitro in the fuel. The planes got really dirty with that much oil but that was what we used then. I used my planes mostly from grass strips so after a whole day of flights oil and grass covered most of the plane right side and right inner wing. It took some time before they where clean and could be carried inside a car for transportation home. As I understand it there are better oils now (synthethic) and only around 10% (plus/minus some percent) of oil is needed in the methanol fuel for 2-stroke engines and that result in less "dirt" on the planes.
/Bo
The "dirt" is from the exhausts leaving the pipe. I do not know what You run 2-stroke 10 cc engines on today but back in 1970th we ran them on 80 % Methanol and 20 % Castrol M 2-stroke oil (based on recin oil) and sometimes also some percentage nitro in the fuel. The planes got really dirty with that much oil but that was what we used then. I used my planes mostly from grass strips so after a whole day of flights oil and grass covered most of the plane right side and right inner wing. It took some time before they where clean and could be carried inside a car for transportation home. As I understand it there are better oils now (synthethic) and only around 10% (plus/minus some percent) of oil is needed in the methanol fuel for 2-stroke engines and that result in less "dirt" on the planes.
/Bo
#74
Thread Starter
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RE: Old time pattern pictures
Thanks Bo.
Do you remember who the hot shot pilot was in the mid 70's from Sweden? I flew against him at the first few TOC's. He was a very skilled piot, nice guy.
Yes I remember running with glow fuel. By the mid 70's I was running Webra Speed 60's but we were using synthetic oils like Klotz by then. Mike
Do you remember who the hot shot pilot was in the mid 70's from Sweden? I flew against him at the first few TOC's. He was a very skilled piot, nice guy.
Yes I remember running with glow fuel. By the mid 70's I was running Webra Speed 60's but we were using synthetic oils like Klotz by then. Mike