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An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Old 12-02-2009, 12:17 AM
  #51  
doxilia
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Hi Viktor,

I sent you a reply by email with some thoughts on the Curare. Let me know what you think.

I realized that regarding the pictures for the blocks that need to be milled, there are some pretty good ones of the Cosmos 20 posted earlier on (click on the pictures for them to expand). I'll re-post them here again for simplicity.

Let me know if this is helpful and gives you an idea of how these parts could be milled.

Thanks, David.
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Old 12-02-2009, 02:31 AM
  #52  
Viktor D
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

David,

many of the Cosmos balsa blocs are much more complex than the Curare parts - which will justify milling them. There are also some parts that can be probably done much faster with a small template and a grinding disc than a mill - I mean parts like NBU on both the Curare and Cosmos. But it depends a bit on the amount of parts that have to be done. The work that has to be done for 3D milling is much higher than for laser cutting.
Generally there are two ways how parts can be milled: 2.5 D and 3D. 2.5D means basically milling the outline with different highs. I have a 3 axis mill - I can mill only perpendicular to the machine surface - not perpendicular to the work piece surface! Which means when milling 3D you have to adopt the paths of your cutter to the shape - in a way that only little material will be left - the cutter is round. It means also that when milling a part like NBU you have to be careful not to mill it in a way than you will get steps into the surface. I will make a drawing later today to make it clearer.

What I generally will say is - it depends on each part what effort it makes to mill it. You have also to keep in mind that the raw material is not just balsa board that can be bought in a shop. Larger blocs are needed which need to be precut before milling. Much of the work is preparing the data for the mill (3D models, cutter paths (g-code)) Therefore I would suggest first to concentrate on those parts that can´t be done by hand like F17 or NBD on the Cosmos kit.



There was an NIB OS 25VF on the US ebay yesterday evening, the highest bid was 192$ (it was not mine - I was to optimistic ;-)
Old 12-02-2009, 08:45 AM
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

I hope everyone is still as enthused about this project as I am. I can't wait to see the first kits rolling off the press...

David.
Your statement doesn't quite capture my desire David! I'm glad that I have several projects to keep me busy until these become available.

FB
Old 12-02-2009, 11:22 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

ORIGINAL: Viktor D

David,

many of the Cosmos balsa blocs are much more complex than the Curare parts - which will justify milling them. There are also some parts that can be probably done much faster with a small template and a grinding disc than a mill - I mean parts like NBU on both the Curare and Cosmos. But it depends a bit on the amount of parts that have to be done. The work that has to be done for 3D milling is much higher than for laser cutting.
Generally there are two ways how parts can be milled: 2.5 D and 3D. 2.5D means basically milling the outline with different highs. I have a 3 axis mill - I can mill only perpendicular to the machine surface - not perpendicular to the work piece surface! Which means when milling 3D you have to adopt the paths of your cutter to the shape - in a way that only little material will be left - the cutter is round. It means also that when milling a part like NBU you have to be careful not to mill it in a way than you will get steps into the surface. I will make a drawing later today to make it clearer.

What I generally will say is - it depends on each part what effort it makes to mill it. You have also to keep in mind that the raw material is not just balsa board that can be bought in a shop. Larger blocs are needed which need to be precut before milling. Much of the work is preparing the data for the mill (3D models, cutter paths (g-code)) Therefore I would suggest first to concentrate on those parts that can´t be done by hand like F17 or NBD on the Cosmos kit.
I suspect the parts like NBU were cut with a band saw, or circular saw using jigs. TB1 and NBD may have been cut on a router table, after the table saw cuts, again using jigs.
There was an NIB OS 25VF on the US ebay yesterday evening, the highest bid was 192$ (it was not mine - I was to optimistic ;-)
I scored a Y.S. 45 FR NIB, that is screaming to go into the Aurora 45 I have had stored for years now. Maybe by this spring.
Old 12-02-2009, 02:14 PM
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

What great work you guy's are doing. I am a yonger modeler age 31, I am a passionate kit/scratch builder. I am sadden that because of my age I missed out on all these great aircraft. I just can't afford these kits when they show up on ebay. I fly a Mk Arrow with a YS 45 and I love it.

CAN I GIVE YOU A DEPOSITE FOR 20 SIZE CURARE KIT????
Old 12-02-2009, 02:57 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project


ORIGINAL: iflyg450

What great work you guy's are doing. I am a yonger modeler age 31, I am a passionate kit/scratch builder. I am sadden that because of my age I missed out on all these great aircraft. I just can't afford these kits when they show up on ebay. I fly a Mk Arrow with a YS 45 and I love it.

CAN I GIVE YOU A DEPOSITE FOR 20 SIZE CURARE KIT????

I feel like the same, when the kits were available I went to shool and had no money for them and today they are so rare, that even when you got one its a shame to build it and not to preserve. Today there ia a Blue Angel 40 kit on german ebay for now 350EUR which is 526$!!!

I like the Curare too - its like one of the old roaring Formula 1 racers from the 60´s.
Old 12-02-2009, 07:24 PM
  #57  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Gents,

thanks for your comments and input.

FB, work continues. Patience will bring us all some rare jewels... but it's hard to contain oneself!

Viktor,

generally, I get the gist of what you're talking about. Not having seen a CNC mill first hand in operation it's hard to entirely conceive how the process works. However, you're the expert and it would strike me that you are the best judge to assess whether using your mill is viable from both an operational and cost standpoint. Modelers following this thread have understood the implications and the work involved by the various parties. Most have volunteered their time and labor which typically is the largest expense in any project, so with that in mind, you have to let us know whether your mill would be able to produce some of these select parts and if so, whether the cost (and your time) would be acceptable. It is clear that if NBU blocks for each different kit entails days of work and ends up costing in the order of 10's of dollars (or Euros [X(]), then it no longer makes sense to do so. Shipping also has to be accounted for.

The way I see it, each model should be treated separately assessing which parts are worth milling (or producing). If, say, there are 5 parts per kit that could be produced and there are 10 parties interested in a kit (for a starters...), we're looking at 50 balsa blocks that need to be produced and shipped. You can see very quickly where this is going. In a nutshell, you kind of get into the milling business. That is something that, to me, has to be thought about carefully. If one is not setup for "serializing" the work, it can be a problem.

I'll leave that hanging for some further thought and we can continue that correspondence via email. (I'll reply to your email soon).

DN,

I think you are onto something. As a lay modeler, if I were to want to re-produce some of these block parts myself, I'd probably think of a band saw first followed by router of sorts (basically a Dremel tool). So, I'd think that for the purposes of automation, it would also be conceivable to have a band (or circular) saw on three axes capable of producing the part by rotating around the block as needed. For our purposes that is evidently not possible, but rather than have the saw move around the part, the part could be moved around the saw. This evidently leads to jigs and manual work.

I think the questions really are, 1) is there a facility or party with CNC routing or band sawing capabilities that could produce these parts in small quantities (not industrial) at reasonable cost? If yes, then no need to address the next question, if no, then 2) would we be willing to produce these parts ourselves either from rectangular blocks provided in the kit or by cutting the parts from balsa we supply.

My preference is for the first option but since this is a grass roots project, some realities may set (I'm not convinced yet) in and it may be that it won't be viable to re-produce reasonably complete kits. Whatever the case, the outcome is probably not much of a deterrent for us since we're all avid builders. We scratch build, we build from short kits and, when we can, we build MK kits... If we need to produce some specific parts for our build, then we do so and have fun doing it.

In any event, I think that you are right in that it might be easier to band saw some of these parts rather than mill them whether done in series or as one offs.

I'll leave that post there with those thoughts.

David.
Old 12-02-2009, 07:35 PM
  #58  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

iflyg450 and other interested parties,

at the moment there are no deposits being taken or accepted for the eventual kits. What is being accepted are monetary donations and contributions (labor and talent) to the effort in producing these kits. There are (and will be more) costs associated with realizing the project and that's where the donated funds are being directed to. If anyone would like to make a contribution to the project, please send me a PM for PayPal account info.

When the kits are ready for production, funds for them will be accepted and hopefully an order for several of them placed at one time - much like David and Will's effort for the custom OS/YS piston & liner order placed from Shadel/Nelson. While doing this via a facility such as the auction site (much like Rainedave has) is not my preference or intention, if the interest becomes substantial (i.e., several orders are placed), then this method might be an alternative.

Many thanks again to everyone who's looking forward to these kits.

David.

Edit: I should mention that in suggesting the auction site it would not be for an actual high bidder auction but just as a venue to process funds at a given cost and shipping worldwide. This fruits of this project will certainly not be limited to a North American only offering. Everyone, planet wide, will be able to build a 20 size classic inspired from great vintage MK kits!
Old 12-03-2009, 10:11 AM
  #59  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Would it be possible to change the milled parts to built up. Maybe sell the kits to ways 1) Basic kit laser cut parts and plans 2) Deluxe with milled parts, laser cut parts and plans? It just me but I don't mind shapeing my own blocks. I will be making a donation next week. If you need someone the help with building and flying prototype let me know I would be more than willing to pay to be a guinepig. Also folks these days love that electric flying stuff, It might not hurt to prototype a electric version. High power 20 sized engs are getting rare.
Old 12-03-2009, 11:58 AM
  #60  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Good ideas but I think probably no on both fronts. Here's why:

1) the milled or band sanded parts cannot really be built up because they are providing both rigidity and mass up front in the nose section (mostly). There's a bit in the tail sections too. But, more importantly, these parts get carved and sanded down to contour and shape the noses down to a spinner backplate circular form. Doing this with built up parts would likely add unnecessary headaches and make the process of shaping things rather difficult.

2) As far as the idea of basic and deluxe kits, I'd rather not go there. The idea of this project is not to get into the kitting business but rather to find the simplest, most economical way for classic pattern fans to be able to build these classics in the smaller scales. With that in mind, I'd like to do the best possible to re-create the kits and offer them to anyone interested as such. If it isn't viable for the block parts to be milled or disc sanded to original shape, then they will hopefully be provided as regular geometry blocks with some indication as to how they should be shaped by hand. In short, we'll do the best possible. All kits (those we manage to produce at least), will be offered the same to anyone interested.

Possible deviations in design from the originals might include a modified and simplified internal structure which alters the formers to use radial engine mounts rather than beam mounts. This will also make it easier for those interested in going electric to do so. Another possible alternative might be the option of foam cores for the wings. The stabs in all these designs appear to be built up and flat (some with anhedral - Curare, Magic) so there is little point in going to airfoiled foam core (or built up) stabs. In fact, I'd venture after looking at these plans extensively, that the framed up stab is largely to counteract the weight of servos placed behind the CG in the fuse and the battery in the front radio bay rather than under the fuel tank (where nose gear needs to retract if so equipped). An airfoiled fully sheeted foam core stab would likely render the models tail heavy. So, again, simple is beautiful.

Prototype builds from other modelers will undoubtedly be needed so I appreciate those willing to do so in a "project oriented" fashion providing feedback and comments on what and how things could be improved on.

For the time being there is still a lot of work to be done...

David.
Old 12-03-2009, 10:09 PM
  #61  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

I believe I've posted these elsewhere before but nothing like a few pictures to get the juices going .

These are of the third kit I hope to begin work on in the new year - no words are necessary for the Illuminati!

(alright, for those less familiar, these are photos of an MK Blue Angel 20 built by someone in Japan).

BTW, note that the BA in these pictures has the original prototype jet like tail with rudder fully above the stab. The MK BA 20 kit has a "snapping" rudder which extends below the stab as in the 60 size design flown by Yoshioka to world championships.

David.
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:02 AM
  #62  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

I don't suppose anyone out there has an Aurora 25 plan that they could volunteer for the project? It is important for it to be the MK Aurora 25 plan and not a scaled version of the 45 or 60 plan - these I have in hand already but they don't quite serve the intended purpose.

I hope to eventually have access to this kit too but there have been some developments lately that are making the need for this plan a little more urgent. If someone has access to the plan, it would be invaluable to have a digital copy.

For reference, attached is a picture of the Aurora 60 scaled down to exact dimension of the Aurora 25 kit. The plan I'm in seach for will be pretty similar except it will say Aurora 25 in bold at the bottom...

Thanks in advance, David.
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:43 AM
  #63  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

We just reached 2000 hits!!

This project rocks! [8D]

David.
Old 12-06-2009, 01:47 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project


ORIGINAL: iflyg450
I will be making a donation next week.
Ooops! Almost missed that line.

Many thanks and looking forward to adding it to the PP pool of donations. I believe I sent you PP info in a PM. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Best, David.
Old 12-06-2009, 03:47 AM
  #65  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project


[quote]ORIGINAL: doxilia
This project rocks! [8D]
David.
[/quote

David it sure does , keep up the work.

If u need anything to cheer up the troops... let us know !!!!!
Old 12-06-2009, 04:23 PM
  #66  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Thanks for your post Rafa.

I don't think I've mentioned it yet, but the Cosmos 20 CAD work is under way! Completion of that is expected some time between the end of January and end of February. After that, we should be able to roll out the first laser cut within short order.

Also, since I've been doing a little scanning work lately, I thought I might as well post some pictures obtained from a flyer. These comprise the collection and hopes of achievement of this project. It might take 2-3 years but we'll get there one day...

First Row: The European classics (Mattlas, Arrow, Curare and Magic)

Second Row: The Japanese classics (Blue Angel, Skymaster, Cosmos, Aurora)

Enjoy!

David.
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Old 12-08-2009, 03:52 PM
  #67  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Gents,

just learned about these. Sort of an absolute must for these kits in the absence of MK SS mechanicals.
[ul][*] No servos.[*] No linkages.[*] No pneumatics.[*] 5 oz per trike set.
[/ul]
Nice!

PDF manual attached.

David.
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Old 12-12-2009, 10:59 AM
  #68  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Well actually not a MK plan, but I got a plan of Hanno Prettners Supra Fly 25, I think it was made in ARF version by EZ as well.

The construction is a bit Different but the simplicity of Hannos designs is not difficult to recognise.
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Old 12-12-2009, 06:46 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

I have a unbuilt complete kit, I have started tracing the parts so I can build one to fly.

If anyone measuements ect of any of the parts let me know

I will be making a copy of the canopy and Cowl next year.

Regards

Johnkpap
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:47 PM
  #70  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Viktor, John,

nice related model to the project! There are some nice kits from EZ/OK Models as well as from Yoshioka. I applaud your efforts for preserving these rare kits and look forward to seeing any work you may do in that respect.

If either of you could take some tiled CU pictures of the plan of the SF25, that would be great! I'd love to see it in a little more detail.

The Curare nears completion - just a few Xmas distractions and the need to pick up my drafstman's pen again.

I've also been working with a different sort of draftsman's pen as I've been modifying Joe Bridi's UFO for 25 power using a ~50" span. Amazing how much work is required to get something that actually will work build wise. Then we'll see how things turn out flight wise! It will be used as a laser cutting trial kit prior to committing the more complex MK designs to cutting.

David.

P.S. Viktor, I sent you several emails - hope you received them.

Old 12-20-2009, 03:14 PM
  #71  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

While CAD work on the Cosmos and Curare is in the good hands of volunteers of this project, I've been working on a CAD plan of a kit which I do not have access to - The Skymaster 20.

While my OS 25 VF was either destined for an Arrow or a Skymaster, I've opted for the latter in view of some great help toward the production of the required S-shaped header. Along with an original Hatori 4cc pipe (which I'm in search of) and a little help from Aurora 60 (I'll probably be in touch with you on the subject in the coming weeks once again...), the production and realization of the SM20 now seems plausible. Although rare, other RE engines besides the 25 VF are still in existence including the extremely luxurious Jett FIRE 25 & 30!

In the meantime, I'll continue to make progress on an imperial version of the plan.

David.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:51 AM
  #72  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

The Skymaster 20 wing and stab came together quite quickly.

Some details remain such as checking retract strut length (seems a tad short) as well as laying out the aileron servo detail. When the plans are complete, hopefully a laser cut kit can be produced as well along with the Cosmos and the Curare. Fortunately, aside from certain non-key pieces of custom balsa such as the wing joiner blocks (a conventional glassed center section wing can be substituted), the Skymaster doesn't have (or need) any custom pieces of balsa.

The main challenge of course remains the glass top deck.

David.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:43 AM
  #73  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project


ORIGINAL: Viktor D
I feel like the same, when the kits were available I went to shool and had no money for them and today they are so rare, that even when you got one its a shame to build it and not to preserve. Today there ia a Blue Angel 40 kit on german ebay for now 350EUR which is 526$!!!

I like the Curare too - its like one of the old roaring Formula 1 racers from the 60´s.
Hi,
That was expensive for a 40 size MK Blue Angel. I got a MKBlue Angel 40 new in box from an estate some months ago for US$ 70. Rare MK kits usually go sky high on ebay so if you really want one there You usually need to grab deep in the pocket.

/Bo
Old 12-22-2009, 06:04 AM
  #74  
Viktor D
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

There is a Magic 40 Kit for 190EUR on a german forum.

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showthread.php?t=180568
Old 12-22-2009, 01:16 PM
  #75  
bem
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Viktor,



Hi,
I got a Magic 40 on the "famous site" for about 140 Euro = US $200 a while back. I would prefer a MK Magic 40 all balsa kit but they are almost impossible to find.Magic 40 that was made by Röga has glass fuselage and foam wing.
To find the larger MK Magic 60 balsa kit new in box will probably not be easy.Simprop in Germanyalso sold Magic 60 (probablyit was a MK kit)according to their catalog from 1982 (and 1984) that I happen to have. A Simprop Magic 60was in Simprop catalog 1984listed at 444 DM (Deutche Mark, Germany switched to Euro in 1999), at that time in 1984 it was 1 US $ = 2.85 DM so the kitprice was about 444/2.85=US$ 156. HannoPrettnerwon F3AWorld Championship 1981 in Acapulcowith Magic 60 (in 1983 he won again in Pensacole but this time with Calypso 60). Below some pictures of Hanno Prettner Magic 60, the engine and the variable pitch prop he used.

/Bo

Translation from German to English of the text in the images:

Hanno Prettner again World Champion in model aerobatics
With this latest success it is clear: Hanno Prettner is the most successful model flyer of all times. His victory is hardly just a chance, this is a try:
World Champion 1977 in Springfield (USA), World Champion 1981 in Acapulco (Mexico), 2nd place 1975 in Bern (Switzerland), 3rd place in Goritzia (Italy)[1973]. Always victories in Tournament of Champion in Las Vegas 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1980. Triple victories in South African Championship. Victory in Irish Championship. Tenfold Austrian Champion. Over 200 victories in internatiional and national meetings.
First Austrian to receive the highest Aviation distinction by FAI Gold-C with Diamond, and to receive Austrian Aeroclub Golden Sportmedal.
His achievements has been reached by goal-orientation, high knowledge in aerodynamics and engines, talent and a perfect reliable radio control system.
Hanno use since ten years only Simprop radio control system!
By Hanno constructed victory planes Curare and Magic You find at page 117 and 121 [in 1982 Simprop catalog]. The engine Super Tigre X61 SL RC that Hanno won World Championship in 1981 is described in page 237 [in 1982 Simprop catalog].

Super Tigre X 61 TST RE RC
Modified Schnurle, ABC
Engine used by World Champion 1981, Hanno Prettner
Cyl volume: 9,98 ccm
Power output: 1.38 kW (1.87 hp)
Bore: 24 mm
Stroke: 22 mm
RPM range: 2000-18000
Weight: 580 g
This modern new Super Tigre is developed for today demands : high effects and high torque with low RPM like the latest engines.
Hanno Prettner used this engine at his World Champion victory, flying at an average 12000 RPM with KATO variable pitch prop (see page 254). This engine has desired characteristics for a longstroke without it's disadvatanges. It is quite and has low vibration. At only 12000 RPM the propeller avoid producing high noice. The high performance is achieved only with use of pipe best.no 070 039 8. The new construction line for Super Tigre engines are: ABC (by Super Tigre developed: Aluminium piston, Bronze/Crome liner), sealed top. That mean clean combustion without pre-ignition, best cooling by new cylinderhead that is larger and do not protrude in combustionchamber. This engine knows nothing about heat problems. This engine can also be used in twin-engine with beltdrive. For normal propeller to be used the two engines must have same rotation, seen from front they must rotate clockwise. A special chrankshaft for clockwise use is available, best. no 070 217 0.



KATO Variable Pitch Prop
Best. no 100 399 2
Kato variable pitch prop was used by Hanno Prettner when winning the World Championship. Hanno showed a new flying style in vertical dive by working with the prop pitch resulting in uniform and precise flying. The blade axis have each3 ballbearings and total 7 ballbearings for playfree usage. Max travel is precision adjustable with a servo. The blades are made of glassfibre - and important - with automatic balancing of machanical and aerodynamic forces.

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