edp

My Feedback: (5)

Finally shot the Klass Kote clear. I have been finishing my friends Ziroli 70" P-47. That's three birds in the past month.

dhal22

Good looking work. Love the clear.

skybuster97

Ed,

Beautiful work.... Can't wait to see it airborne.

b

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Mr. Peel,

indeed some very nice finishing on both the Deception and Illusion!

Looking forward to seeing them pronti for the flight line.

David

stuntflyr

You were just waiting for the paint to gas off, right Ed?
Chris...

edp

My Feedback: (5)

Naw, I just like to age my airplanes. Mostly just working crazy hours and I want ed to do both at the same time.
Ed

gobigdave

Late the the party with a fresh set of Deception plans. Did this beauty get in the air?

edp

My Feedback: (5)

Not yet, I just received all the servos, battery pack and such. The same w/ the Illusion. Work has been balls to the wall 12 hour nights all summer. I think I only went out flying five or six times. The OT pays for the bills
Looking forward to the winter slow down. Shot the orange on the T2A.

gobigdave

No worries, Ed. I had a Deception back in the early 80's and loved it. Ended up getting out of the hobby by the 90's and sold the plane (kept the OPS red head though). Now, I'm back in with both feet and flying a 70" Extra and a 60" Pitts Model 12 (ARFs). Both are great fun, but I miss the 100mph, horizon to horizon slow rolls.

Right now, I have the plans from my old kit and a new set from MAN. Any recommendations on the best place to get some laser cut parts? I can setup a good place to build, but I'm still light on some tools. I'm also curious about a built-up wing. If I can't get my hands on the cut ribs, I can draw something up with CompuFoil based on the root and tip of the wing plans.

ARFs are fun to get out and fly, but I miss building from a kit or plans.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Dave,

while I have looked into the idea of a laser cut Deception kit, I've repeatedly abandoned it since it is such an easy model to frame up. There are simply 3 formers to the fuse and cutting the fuse sides with an X-Acto is not rocket science. I scratched mine (albeit at a reduced 40" span scale - actually harder to build) with no problems and given your experience, I doubt you'd have any either. Where I think one could spare some weight is with the fuse top construction which calls for a thick slab of wood. I'd "terrace" the top using a pair of fuse side strips, tristock to support them and then a half thickness (1/4" or 3/16") top cap. All of which would be sanded to a nice round contour.

As for the wings and stabs, I would suggest going with a set of cores from Scott at RCfoamy.com. He can also set you up with a glass canopy which completes the build materials. Built like this, they can wind up weighing in the 7.5 lbs ballpark.

BTW, there is a slight error in the MAN plans regarding the location of the third former and the design in that area. Again, nothing overly complex to fix but you might want to take a look at that area again.

David

PS I couldn't help but post some snaps of Kevin's frankly fantastic Deception variation - wide pipe deck and faired in vertical modifications.

gobigdave

Thanks, David!

Sounds like it's time for me to order some balsa and contact RCfoamy.com.

I followed the thread about Kevin's Deception with great interest. That ship is beautiful! I only wish we could have seen a video of it being flown like he stole it.

Hopefully, my old OPS still runs after 20 years in a sealed bag. I'm also toying with the idea of electric. I know. I know. It's heresy to think electric for a pattern bird, but I figure if Hanno Prettner can fly an electric Curare, it might be worth looking into.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Dave,

those Italian engines (OPS, Rossi, etc.) were made to last. If it still has compression, it should be fine. I bet the sleeve and piston are fine on the inside provided fuel wasn't left in it. I have a few of those red head Ursus myself one of which I want to put in the Deception little brother - the Bootlegger. If you want some more power, give a NR Speed/13 a try. They're affordable, available and beautifully made and man, do they put out!

On the other hand, an electric version would also be interesting. I'd go for big Kv on the motor on an 11x8 prop and 15K+ RPM. That way you can brag with Kevin who will have his YS screaming at the same Hz and you can both do strafing passes a foot off the deck...

David

gobigdave

I'm only thinking about electric for a challenge. For reference, Hanno's Curare runs a LiPolice LP-4025 /12T-510KV with a 12x10e prop. I might go a little higher on the kv if I end up going electric. Plus, I suspect the Deception will be a bit heavier than the Curare (http://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk...d.asp?id=44903).

Now, back to the build. Sorry about hijacking the thread for a bit.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

It sounds fun to me. I've learned that the LiPolice motors are essentially rebranded (or otherwise branded) Scorpion motors. A fellow forum member, Doug, runs that same motor on his 9 lbs Conquest IVe turning a 13" prop (13x10 I believe) on 6s and some 65A. According to him it is sufficient but he feels that loosing half a pound or so from the airframe would help him in his CPA schedule. However, I think you're right and increasing the Kv to the 600+ ballpark is a good idea which should still allow the motor to turn a 12" prop on 6s with ample power (probably 1600W+).

Yes, by original design, the Deception would certainly be heavier than the current Curare ARF which has been completely re-designed internally to deliver a 7.5 lbs AUW model. I think Hanno's original model on the Webra Speed 61 was closer to the 8.5 lbs ballpark. By his own comment, the ARF flies immeasurably better than his original. I'd suggest you have a chat with Scott at RCFoamy who has framed up many Deceptions including some for e-power. I wouldn't say it's rocket science to lighten the airframe up but if you're going for e-power, I think it would serve you well to remove much of the wood used in the original. You basically want to end up with a stressed skin fuse which can be accomplished by adding more formers (even 1/8" balsa) and substantially thinning out the outsides of the model. I would go for 1/8" sides and bottom and perhaps consider a 3/32" sheeted top using shaped formers and a 1/4" stringer down the top keel. Provided you have enough formers to support the structure, it will be just fine. You might want to use a 1/8" or 3/32" balsa doubler in the wing saddle area forward to the FW. Also, a lightened 1/8" lite ply plate can be used from FW to wing TE former to further stiffen the fuse and provide a surface to mount the battery(s) and radio components. If I were going electric, I think I'd also strongly consider plug-in wings and a removable front deck length to be determined by the new design. Clearly for the FW you only need a 1/8" birch ply structure with a little reinforcement (doubler) in the area where you pass the four bolts. I think I would also simply do a full wood cowl out of 3/8" sheet balsa (sides, top and bottom) with a 1/8" lite ply nose ring and FW frame to magnetically mount it to the model. A light sheeted framed up fin and rudder would further help the cause. There is also no reason not to sheet the wing/stab cores with 1/32" standard balsa with some CF strip reinforcements under the skins acting as spars forward and aft of the main landing gear. No need for CF strips of course if using a CF wing joiner tube in that area.

I've attached a couple of snaps of some modifications I brought about to Ron Chidgey's TT4 (a larger model than the Deception) for e-power. The motor shown on the front is actually the very Scorpion 510 Kv for which I re-designed the model since I had one. I expect this model to be in the 8 lbs AUW due to its size. I'm not entirely pleased with the internal structure of the horizontal plates and nose gear support I drew so I put the project on the back burner until I figured out a better way to do things. But, generally speaking, it might provide some insight into how you might want to consider framing up your model if you are going with e-power. I'm sure a 7 lbs D-Eception is doable with a little creativity...

BTW, I found some pictures of Scorpion HKIII heli motors that I was researching at the time which may be a good candidate for your e-powered Deception. The main thing to watch out for with the heli motors is shaft diameter but at 6mm+ I think the shafts should be fine even at ~14K RPM . In any case, the HKIII-5025-650 might be an interesting option that you could discuss with Lucien at Scorpion motors USA.

David

P.S. I also apologise for derailing Ed's thread. Hopefully, in the interest of Deceptions, our comments are not too far afield.

edp

My Feedback: (5)

The Deception is done!!!!
It came out at 10# flat. That includes the B&D tri-gear system, a 6v 1600ma. pack plus 6 servos. I must of had a heavy finger on the spray gun. I can save several ounces if I drop the Kraft wheels. I may do that. I did it to the P7 and it made a difference.
I'll post pics when it gets nice out.
Hey, it only took six years

gobigdave

Awesome! I'm looking forward to the pics -- and the video of the flight!

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Ed - What is the weight of the Kraft wheels.?
Vince

edp

My Feedback: (5)

I shaved 4oz. (1/4 lb.) just in wheels!

MTK

Krafts were bullet proof with their solid rubber tread..... but solid rubber is heavy. The only neat feature, the collar was internal which made retracts look cleaner. With a little work, I'd bet one could install foam rubber tread on the hubs.

edp

My Feedback: (5)

Best pics I can do now as the snow is flying.

dhal22

Fantastic! Beautiful!

hrrcflyer

All I can say is WOW! ! ! !

Hey Ed,

Let me know when you get tired of flying that thing and I'll give you my address so you can send it to me . . . . . . .LOL

David

edp

My Feedback: (5)

[ATTACH]2171128[/IMG][ATTACH]2171129[/IMG][ATTACH]2171130[/IMG]

The first flights.
It is built straight and true as it only took 3 clicks of up elevator for straight and level (spooky). Engine is new and was run rich at 11,750RPM on an APC 11x7. Take-off was straight and clean w/ the gear up and no issues. Pulls the vertical straight and plenty of rudder for a good stall turn. CG is spot on. NOW THE BAD, the ailerons go blank at full throttle. I can roll one way or the other and it will continue to roll and is difficult to roll back to level. At slow and up to 3/4 power, all is well with good response on the ailerons and rolls fine both directions on all three rates w/o problems.
All I can think of is that I forgot to seal the ailerons and elevators. My gaps are tight about 1/64".

hrrcflyer

Looks AWESOME Ed. I hope you get your aileron issue resolved so you can enjoy flying that beauty. . . . .

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Great color/paint design, nice build.

Crank