Deception Build
07-04-2016, 04:49 AM
#251
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Hi Ed,
great looking Deception! The aileron problem is interesting, while I do not think the hinge gap is the problem I would seal the ailerons. Are you using two aileron servos or the original torque rod set-up? The two possibilities that come to mind are: 1) a lack of servo torque; or 2) flutter. Is there much 'slop' in the aileron set-up? What servos are you using? If you can post some photos of the aileron set-up that might be helpful, too. I assume, when you encounter this problem in flight, that you reduce power and regain full aileron control.
-Will
great looking Deception! The aileron problem is interesting, while I do not think the hinge gap is the problem I would seal the ailerons. Are you using two aileron servos or the original torque rod set-up? The two possibilities that come to mind are: 1) a lack of servo torque; or 2) flutter. Is there much 'slop' in the aileron set-up? What servos are you using? If you can post some photos of the aileron set-up that might be helpful, too. I assume, when you encounter this problem in flight, that you reduce power and regain full aileron control.
-Will
07-04-2016, 06:34 AM
#252
Will,
[ATTACH]2171178[/IMG]
No slop as I made the ailerons from hard balsa. These servos put out 56 oz. of torque on 6V. I have used this same set up on every pattern bird I've built w/o any problems.
I made flat high speed passes w/o any kind of aileron buzz.
Yes as soon as I slow down ailerons are back to normal. This is a first for me on this one.
On a scarier point, I was flying my friends 27% Extra 270 when both ailerons servos let go. Landed fine using the rudder. Turned out he had good JR servos but w/ plastic gear train.
[ATTACH]2171182[/IMG]
Just a bad day for ailerons
[ATTACH]2171178[/IMG]
No slop as I made the ailerons from hard balsa. These servos put out 56 oz. of torque on 6V. I have used this same set up on every pattern bird I've built w/o any problems.
I made flat high speed passes w/o any kind of aileron buzz.
Yes as soon as I slow down ailerons are back to normal. This is a first for me on this one.
On a scarier point, I was flying my friends 27% Extra 270 when both ailerons servos let go. Landed fine using the rudder. Turned out he had good JR servos but w/ plastic gear train.
[ATTACH]2171182[/IMG]
Just a bad day for ailerons
07-05-2016, 04:49 PM
#254
My Feedback: (121)
Hi Ed,
I've given your problem some more thought and I do not believe it to be aerodynamic in origin. I think it is electronic, but caused by engine vibration at full throttle. You should be able to test this hypothesis on the ground by observing aileron response while the engine is running at full throttle. I would watch each aileron separately as you move the transmitter stick. If the problem is observed on the ground then you might try a larger prop (+1" of pitch) to slow the top speed of the engine and lower the vibration level. I assume the engine is 'hard' mounted. Changing (reducing) the peak rpm may eliminate the problem which should be observed on the ground. If the prop change eliminates the strange aileron behavior you can then try a test flight to see if the problem has been eliminated in the air.
I built and flew 4 Deceptions back in the 'classic' pattern days ('80-'83 for my Deceptions) and they all had 1 servo driving both ailerons with a whopping 40 oz inches of torque. Powered by YS, too. This is certainly an unusual problem!
-Will
I've given your problem some more thought and I do not believe it to be aerodynamic in origin. I think it is electronic, but caused by engine vibration at full throttle. You should be able to test this hypothesis on the ground by observing aileron response while the engine is running at full throttle. I would watch each aileron separately as you move the transmitter stick. If the problem is observed on the ground then you might try a larger prop (+1" of pitch) to slow the top speed of the engine and lower the vibration level. I assume the engine is 'hard' mounted. Changing (reducing) the peak rpm may eliminate the problem which should be observed on the ground. If the prop change eliminates the strange aileron behavior you can then try a test flight to see if the problem has been eliminated in the air.
I built and flew 4 Deceptions back in the 'classic' pattern days ('80-'83 for my Deceptions) and they all had 1 servo driving both ailerons with a whopping 40 oz inches of torque. Powered by YS, too. This is certainly an unusual problem!
-Will
07-06-2016, 07:37 AM
#256
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Ed,
and the torque end inserting into the ailerons is it fairly close to the root end of the ailerons or do you have 1-2" of aileron before it inserts?
I suspect Will is on to something here but it could be that the tips of your ailerons are "soft" due to vibration and insufficient torque on the surface due to the insertion point.
David
and the torque end inserting into the ailerons is it fairly close to the root end of the ailerons or do you have 1-2" of aileron before it inserts?
I suspect Will is on to something here but it could be that the tips of your ailerons are "soft" due to vibration and insufficient torque on the surface due to the insertion point.
David
09-04-2016, 12:01 PM
#258
Sorry it took so long to get this back out to test, but success, sorta. Between work and weather, 2 days a month just don't get it.
I can now roll both directions but the rolls to the left are twice as fast to the left. The throws are the same both up and down. It does the pretties four point and slow rolls. it is spot on balanced all around. Loops and stall turns are true also. The Webra Speed is breaking in nicely.
Now back to the rolls. This then first bird that has done this. I'm not giving up on this bird, but it does make me scratch my head sometimes. i want to get this sorted before I bring out my Illusion.
I can now roll both directions but the rolls to the left are twice as fast to the left. The throws are the same both up and down. It does the pretties four point and slow rolls. it is spot on balanced all around. Loops and stall turns are true also. The Webra Speed is breaking in nicely.
Now back to the rolls. This then first bird that has done this. I'm not giving up on this bird, but it does make me scratch my head sometimes. i want to get this sorted before I bring out my Illusion.
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impactiq (04-29-2023)
09-05-2016, 02:22 PM
#261
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I went back through this thread to see how the ailerons where hook up and I;m thinking that if it;s a torque rod setup that one torque rod is flexing laterallly more than the other.
The air flow across the aileron is just enough to to keep the aileron on one side from articulating to the right full throw angle as compared to the other side.
Because I like to fly my planes 'pedal to the metal' I've had several different problems similar to yours as well as high speed flutter.
Since the price of servos has come done I just use dual aileron servo's instead of torque rod setups.
Two simple solutions to try add more throw to the aileron side that is having trouble or add a second aileron servo right next to the other one so that one servo controls one torque rod per side.
The latter would allow you to digitally control the the servo on the bad side, e.g. adding more throw or adding differential throw with more throw as needed.
Or you could just add servos outboard past the retracts to solve the torque rod problem.
Bryan
The air flow across the aileron is just enough to to keep the aileron on one side from articulating to the right full throw angle as compared to the other side.
Because I like to fly my planes 'pedal to the metal' I've had several different problems similar to yours as well as high speed flutter.
Since the price of servos has come done I just use dual aileron servo's instead of torque rod setups.
Two simple solutions to try add more throw to the aileron side that is having trouble or add a second aileron servo right next to the other one so that one servo controls one torque rod per side.
The latter would allow you to digitally control the the servo on the bad side, e.g. adding more throw or adding differential throw with more throw as needed.
Or you could just add servos outboard past the retracts to solve the torque rod problem.
Bryan
Last edited by Roguedog; 09-05-2016 at 02:24 PM.
09-06-2016, 03:56 AM
#262
09-25-2016, 11:35 PM
#264
Success
I toned down the roll rate to the left using the duel rate and now I have equal roll rates.
After flying a P7 for so long this airplane is much different. It holds a knife edge much easier. Inverted flight requires VERY little down to hold straight and level. I will really enjoy this bird.
Funny thing on a friends test flight of a H9 27% Extra 260. The roll rate was also much higher to to the left. This is the second bird in a row I have had this. I will do the same rate changes for his setup also as I'm slowly getting Bob into precision aerobatics.
On a sad note for my friends, there were three totals at the field. one my Dad's foam jet, and a semi student's big Super Sportster, and this one. I have flown this Miles Reed SolutionX 84" for several years (That's yours truly 4 years ago). Bob was flying it yesterday when total radio failure from a 200' stall turn. This was a great Flying IMAC bird.
I toned down the roll rate to the left using the duel rate and now I have equal roll rates.
After flying a P7 for so long this airplane is much different. It holds a knife edge much easier. Inverted flight requires VERY little down to hold straight and level. I will really enjoy this bird.
Funny thing on a friends test flight of a H9 27% Extra 260. The roll rate was also much higher to to the left. This is the second bird in a row I have had this. I will do the same rate changes for his setup also as I'm slowly getting Bob into precision aerobatics.
On a sad note for my friends, there were three totals at the field. one my Dad's foam jet, and a semi student's big Super Sportster, and this one. I have flown this Miles Reed SolutionX 84" for several years (That's yours truly 4 years ago). Bob was flying it yesterday when total radio failure from a 200' stall turn. This was a great Flying IMAC bird.
Last edited by edp; 09-25-2016 at 11:37 PM.
12-09-2016, 08:59 AM
#265
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just joined this thread I do not know how long it has been up but I flew this plane for a long time wings lock on like nothing before even in the winds, if you build the rear exhaust I have some hints for you
12-09-2016, 09:38 AM
#267
This one just seem more pronounced than others. My 3 Tiporares, P7, P8 and T2A, never as much. I like it know that the kinks are worked out. I am building a XLT w/ the FIRE Novarossi Speed .61. My RCAiir Illusion will tested this Spring if the weather is good.
12-09-2016, 09:49 AM
#268
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in the time an xlt was under powered to big flew nice no vertical your deception probably pulls to to top little in vertical line which is normal because plane is trimmed for level flight. to stay on the line hold the down during the roll on the up line
12-09-2016, 09:56 AM
#271
During the couple times i was able to get out, nearly rained or fog every Saturday, I was concentrating on the horizontals. The slow roll and point rolls are now spot on. Inverted is dead flat. I got to work a little on the stall turns when the weather turned. The new NR engines are just beasts.
12-09-2016, 10:07 AM
#272
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stall turns are difficult you have to hit rudder before it stops moving and a burst of throttle I used the pull pull with cables not a pushrod and had if I remember right 2.5 to 2.75 inches of throw on high rate. I flew these a long time ago in the 80 through 84 great airplane locked on solid wings is what I liked
12-09-2016, 10:13 AM
#274
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if you want to build a rear exhaust I always started with a 1 inch top block and sanded with a small jar to inset the pipe so the canapy would be the right length to help with knife edge
12-09-2016, 10:22 AM
#275
I flew IMAC for a summer with a 1/4 scale Extra 300S. The stall turns were fun and easy as I pulled the throttle back to 1/4 until there was very little airspeed the hit the rudder to keep it within a wingspan. I carried this over to AMA Pattern and was happier w/ the results. There are only a couple of guys that fly pattern in my area, so we learn from each other.
I flew full scale when I was attached to NAS Memphis in the Navy.back in the early eighties. R/C flying helped a lot in It. My Instructor, a F-14 driver, was impressed that I didn't throw him all over the cockpit in a T-34B.
I flew full scale when I was attached to NAS Memphis in the Navy.back in the early eighties. R/C flying helped a lot in It. My Instructor, a F-14 driver, was impressed that I didn't throw him all over the cockpit in a T-34B.