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Citation .60??? .60...really?

Old 04-09-2008, 07:38 PM
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samtech
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Default Citation .60??? .60...really?

I was given a nearly finished Citation kit and would very much like to complete it but I have a couple of question about power plants and hardware . The kit calls for a .60 rear exhaust 2 stroke. I have a .61 rear exhaust 2 stroke of the same era. Early 80's ish... It's a MDC russian pattern engine. My question is; will it be enough? I've noticed most 66 inch wing pattern planes call for .91+ for power.
I would like to keep it era approprate. What did you guys run in 1983?
The other question is about the retacts. Will whatever due or was there a favorite gear in the early 80's? Mechanical or air?
Thank you
Old 04-09-2008, 08:03 PM
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Atlanta 60
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

First off...Very Kewl!!!

I'm not personally "from that era"...I am an admirer of that era aircraft who's just able to "afford" some of the dream planes I remember way back when...I'm in the process of getting a few going too...

.61 2 cycle engines are comparable to a .90 class four stroke...Since most pattern folks are using four strokes these days I'd imagine where the reference is coming from...

Although I'm not familiar with your MDC engine in particular....Allot of guys who are currently getting these era aircraft back in the air are using .61 two stroke's...You should be just right...

Retracts...In my opinion are a matter of personal preference between mechanical and air...I'll let some others chime in here...I'm using allot of mechanical retracts because I already have them...

That should be an Awesome Aircraft...I have the drawings for the Citation...I like the looks of it and hope someday to be able to scratch build one too...

Chuck

Old 04-09-2008, 09:07 PM
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flywilly
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

Ivan Kristensen won the '83 nats with an OS .61VR ABC engine, He flew big, precise maneuvers. Currently, the Rossi 61 is available as a rear exhaust engine and Rossis have always been very powerful. DOn't know a thing about the MDS engine but it should provide adequate power.
Great Airplane!!
ENJOY!!
Old 04-10-2008, 03:44 AM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

You Lucky Son of a ... Citation!
There is a fellow here you has one too. I offered $400 last year. No was the answer. I just offered him $550 a couple weeks ago, again No! He's a nice guy. He says he'll loan me the kit to copy the patterns... I'm planning to have Roguedog help me make a file to send to everyone interested via email. It's going to take a while though. The guy is in China right now, he owns AirPac Models... All jets. I was hoping he'll part with it since he flies non-prop plane. . At least he is nice enough to let me have it for a while.

I'm planning to put a hot 1.00 engine from Bob Brassel of Jett Enginering. Nice motor, .61 size case and machined from bar stock aluminum.

Post some pics of your plane. I'm sure Allot of folks would love the veiw!

DM
Old 04-10-2008, 06:21 AM
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Deadstik
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

Sam,

Thought you might like to see a picture of a really nice Citation built by Rick Hanson of Norfok, Virginia in 1986. Plane had an OS .61 VF and flew beautifully. It is on my list of "possibilities".....

Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:48 AM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

The Citation was a very nice airplane. It was designed for a 60 and the cowl would be a bit tight for anything larger. The kit was a small box filled with balsa and a couple pieces of fiberglass. Almost amazing that a plane that size came out of the box. It certainly tested your building skills to keep it straight and light. Most planes of that era (pre turnaround) could use a bit more power on the hotter days or if the plane was not kept light. One of the secrets not well known during that time was to just up the nitro. Some guys had the extra power. They were usually running 30% plus nitro in their fuel. At that time 15% was a lot. Retracts of that period were usually Rhom air, Spring air or mechanical. MK mechanicals being the best of that group. I did try Spring air in one of my planes but I always preeferred a good mechanical setup.

Stuart
Old 04-10-2008, 08:34 AM
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MMcConville
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

4-strokes werent used in pattern in the Citation era. It was great with a good piped 61 RE 2-stroke. Very good actually.

The Citation IMO is a very key design in the evolution of pattern models and started the big swing from exposed pipes and lower wings to the fully enclosed pipes thru the bellypan under the wing designs that even in todays pattern models is still a norm.
I never had one but always wanted it. Its an excellent airplane!!
Old 04-10-2008, 08:40 AM
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Atlanta 60
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?


ORIGINAL: Aurora_60

Post some pics of your plane. I'm sure Allot of folks would love the veiw!

DM
YES!! Pictures Please!!
Old 04-10-2008, 10:19 AM
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samtech
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

Ok, picture time. I'm a little conserned about the dog leg in the rudder. You can see it in the pics but I'm not convinced it was intentional. Maybe, I don't know. What do you guys think. Also, I took some pics of the linkage in the wing... I have no idea how this is supposed to work. It's a rod that spans from one side to the other and at each end is a bell crank. The pic with my finger in it is the rod. It slides side to side (Not rolls) and the bell cranks in the wing push and pull the alirons up and down as one unit. Does that make sense? Oh well, where does the servo go? Is this something that was used alot or is this a "builder innovation"?
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:24 AM
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samtech
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

.
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:31 AM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

The vertical stabilizer and rudder needs to be straight. You might try heating the top part of the stab and see if you can bend it back straight.
Old 04-10-2008, 10:55 AM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

Crooked rudder is a bummer, but can be trimmed out at constant speed.

The aileron linkage through bellcranks was common back when, especially for "barn door" ailerons, but a bit sloppy, there being 4 connections and a pivot between servo and aileron. Better to use a servo on each wing and scrap the bellcranks.
Old 04-10-2008, 11:01 AM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

Soooo...She needs a little work...

Yup straighten the vertical...If you can't straighten it out I'd go as far as cutting away the warped portion and re-building the vertical...You'll have to figure out a way to do that...Kinda like a crash repair...Whatever it takes and whatever works...

If it were me I'd dispose of all that aileron linkage stuff and cut some new holes and mount one aileron servo in each wing half...

I may consider Spring Air Retracts...I think it may be easier doing that plumbing rather than trying to set up mechanical linkage at this stage of the game...

Fiberglass the center section of the wing once you have the Aileron and retract stuff squared away...

It may seem like a big job...But that airplane is defiantly worthy of the work!! And you will really appreciate it if it's straight...

Just my .02

Chuck
Old 04-10-2008, 08:52 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

I agree with Chuck - fix it right while it's still under construction and go with 2 aileron servos!!!

I think (??) Bruno Geizendanner's Scorpion may have been the first or one of the first inverted engine pattern ships. He flew it at the '79 World Championships. He was running an OS .61VF which must have been from the first production run or even a prototype engine. Yoshioka's Citation is one of the best looking airplanes from that era. I think it was the first inverted engine/belly pan design kitted (of course Yoshioka owned his own factory!!). Yoshioka then designed the Dash-5 which was one of the earliest plug-in wing designs and I believe the only all wood pattern kit ever produced with plug-in wings (Dave Von Linsowe's USA STar had a wood fuse and foam wings). Yoshioka's last pattern design (that he competed with) was the Flash which was much simpler than his previous efforts (similar to Prettner going from the Magic to the Calypso); he still managed to place a very respectable 10th! Naruke came out with his Cosmos design shortly after the Citation. The Cosmos lead to the Aurora which is one of the all time popular pattern designs (Naruke flew his with a YS 60FR and an Asano propeller).
Enjoy your Citation!!
-Will Bartlett
Old 04-10-2008, 10:28 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

I took it to see the local pattern experts today and they also suggest that the rudder should be fixed... or I'll hate it... Yeap, the rudder is going to be replaced. Lucky for me I have the box and most of the prints. The prints are in bad shape but I can get most of what I need from them.... The questionable points will come from careful disection.
One of the local flyers at our club idenitified the correct retracts "footprint" and promised to donate them. I don't remember the name he mentioned but it wasn't familar to me. It was also pointed out to me that the "right" pipe would be the hatori 601 or 650. Those are a little hard to come by and expensive for new... Any body got one that they would let go of for cheap? I'm sure one will come up on fleebay...
Oh well, I'm building a scale Sukhoi 26 right now, radial and all, and I'd like to finish it up befor starting a new project. I think this plane needs "deserves" my full undivided attention. Modern servos and other electronics but everything else should be strait out of the 80's. Well.... maybe not the paint job... I've got an idea...
I really appreciate all the positive feed back from you guys. Any suggestions or recomendations you have are warmy welcomed. I'll post progress as it's made.
Old 04-10-2008, 11:29 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

samtech, I can email you a full-size file of the MK kit plans if you think it might help. Just PM me your email address.

David
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:42 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

Just to bring this back to the top I now own this veryairplane and really love it. If anyone has the plans they can email me I would greatly appriciate it as the rudder still needs to be fixed. Thanks to all.

Tim
Old 10-11-2011, 05:00 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

It's funny how some of the projects and planes move around.
Old 10-11-2011, 05:31 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

Holy Smokes Tim! There's your plane! Not only do we know what model design it is; it's actually the same one!

They do indeed move around...

Well, we weren't far off. As Mike pointed out, a "transition" design prior to the Aurora's and Beetle's that was early in the under wing enclosed pipe era - I suspect '83-'86 or thereabouts.

As Raindave's plan shows, this is indeed a Japanese kit which happens to be a Yoshioka kit. I was pretty sure it was either an MK, IM or Yoshioka as it turns out.

It's too bad that Dave has been absent from the forum, he'd probably be able otherwise happy to share the plans with you. One can see that the wing called for separate aileron servo's in the wing as well as flaps. Based on that, I'm pretty sure that the bellcranks were the builders idea now and as suspected, the design did in fact have flaps. I'd keep them flaps if I were you but be rid of those bellcranks.

David.
Old 10-11-2011, 06:16 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

You were right. I am so glad to have found this. Now if I can get the plans the world would be perfect. These things sure do move around, now if I can just keep it and finish it for all those that came before me. Time to get busy I guess.
Tim
Old 10-12-2011, 06:02 AM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?



A rear exhaust engine often over looked is the Fox .60.   A bit torquer than a Rossi, but probably less so than the OS long strokes.

Old 10-12-2011, 07:34 AM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

Lacking a pumped engine (e.g., pumped OS RF-P or YS FR or some Webra's I suppose but rare), I'd go with Yoshioka's original engine - an OS 61 VF. These were the last of the OS short strokes contemporary's to the SE FSR's - cool engines IMO. Given the vintage of this ship, it would be nice to run it on a short stroke. Judging from the low res plans it also looks like a failry small pipe can be accomodated. Nothing more than a Hatori 600 class or a Macs muffled pipe (but probably not the long quiet pipe).

On the other hand, it sounds like you'll be going electric - is that right Tim?

If so, the little NACA inlet to cool the header in the belly pan would make a nice slot for the ESC. I'd close up the bottom of the pan opened up for the engine and make an inlet in the front to cool the motor. The batteries are another issue but they'll probably have to go in the tank area with a hatch made along the lines of what Doug did on his Conquest IV. These inverted piped designs are not the easiest to convert but with a little work everything is possible.

David.
Old 10-12-2011, 11:28 AM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

You are right David,
I will be converting it to electric.  I agree it would be cool to see it stay vintage but I have had my fair share of gas engines and have never been happy with their overall temperment.  Since I started in the hobby again a couple years ago all my planes have been electric and I really do love the simplicity and ease of use. 
The NACA vent is perfect for the ESC and the motor wont be a problem but yeah the battery will take some effort.

Tim
Old 10-12-2011, 12:47 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

So it's cool to go with the original engine, and its cool to go electric, but a non vintage engine is not cool? 

IMO it's the electric thats not cool.  But that shouldn't stop anybody, what is cool to you is what is cool.
Old 10-12-2011, 01:38 PM
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Default RE: Citation .60??? .60...really?

I agree to each their own.  If I did go gas with this plane I would use a new gas engine for it.  I just like the ease of the electrics now.

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