RCU Forums

RCU Forums (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/)
-   Classic RC Pattern Flying (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/classic-rc-pattern-flying-379/)
-   -   El Gringo (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/classic-rc-pattern-flying-379/11336183-el-gringo.html)

Skip 12-18-2012 12:10 PM

El Gringo
 
Just test flew my " El Gringo" today. I got the plans from RCU and a short kit from Laser Works. Using Horizon electric retracts. I used to watch Ted White fly his in Texas a long time ago. The plane still is a great flyer. I made many changes to the original plan so the plane is very light. This plane is SPA legal. I love the looks of this design. I am using an Evo .61 and it is plenty of power for aerobatics.

turbo.gst 12-18-2012 12:52 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Very Nice!

proparc 12-18-2012 01:01 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
What does the plane weigh and what prop are you using. Congrats on a very nice build and a great choice for Classic,(not often done).

crashlander 12-18-2012 01:09 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Hi Skip:
I remember that design. Good looking plane it was and still is.
Nice build you have there

Orlando

PatternPilot 12-18-2012 01:18 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Skip,

Plane looks great ! bring it out to a CPA event and fly it ....

scott

RonMcCormick 12-18-2012 02:27 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
WoW! talk about a blast from the past. I remember it well. Looks great I think I have an article on it, I have to check.

PatternPilot 12-18-2012 02:50 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Skip,

you should do some photos and write up on it and i will put it in the CPA newsletter.

let me know...

scott

Skip 12-18-2012 04:02 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
The plane weighs 7.25 poungs I substituted a hollow turtle deck with formers for the original top which is siolid balsa carved to shape. I also used contest balsa whenever possible. I am using an APC 11x7 and 11x8 prop. I have only a few flights on the plane so I need to tweek the C/G and control outputs along with expo. I have yet to even retract the gear. I'm going to try to fly again tomorrow and take some more pictures. Skip

jfuller 12-18-2012 04:31 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Hi,

Nice building job. I flew the El Gringo back in the early 60's. Hard to believe that it was 50 years ago. Golly have I gotten old!!

Jamesf

RCDENT 12-18-2012 07:54 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Great job Skip! Brings back a lot of memories for me too. Always thought it was one of the coolest looking pattern planes out there. Looked like a B model P-51 without the belly scoop. Built a couple of them back inthe day.Still remember carving out that top block! Ted was one of the first pattern guys to use retracts. Was always a thrill to watch Ted White fly it. Anyone know what ever happened to Ted? Thanks for sharing the photo with us.
Dewey


sehlers 12-18-2012 09:41 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hey Skip ,
I'm going to paste a couple Post's I made a while back about the El Gringo that all here can see now .
Steve

I just saw your post here about the El Gringo . I have a little info you might be interested in about it .
Ted White ,the designer is an old club member and still lives here in the Fort Worth area .
I had a chat with him last summer about why the RCM plans look different then his planes I remember
seeing fly back in the early 70's .

Seems the RCM plans are Version 1 original and by 1971 he was flying version 4 or 5 he said .
I found that interesting because the reasons to change the stab location to help knife-edge flight was to correct for pitching .
I heard the same reasons for the change on the Super Kaos and also for Anhedral stabs .Since you had to fly the sticks
back in those days before computer radios ,the designers were constantly changing airframes to correct design issues .

It is my opinion that his last design looks the best also .If you can handle the fact the platform progressed to look similar to a P-51
A or B model .He also went to a tail-dragger design to save weight without the nose gear .

As fortune would have it ,I have just happened on a framed up late version ,built many years ago ,that I hope to purchase
from the owners son .He bought the kit directly from Ted years ago .

Steve



sehlers 12-18-2012 09:48 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
1 Attachment(s)
I forgot to mention that I took this pic of Ted White in 1971 at a Dallas R/C Club contest in Irving ,Texas .
Talk about Stand off scale ! How about the German Version !

Yes , That is Ted in the pic working on it . Ted had the ingenuity to paint the 2 different planes with US and Nazi insignias ,
and Wall-La ,we now have a P-51 and a Me-109 . Or maybe a German captured Mustang :-)

The RCM plans came out after the Article appeared as plan Model: pl-436 , Featured in issue: RCM 7-70 , the Rudder and Elevator
hinge line where on the same plain /line ( Pic below ). Your plan has the moved stab ,but still the built up wing ,Not foam as he later
used on these planes in pic .I suspect your plans are Version 2 ,Not the Version 4or 5 airplane he explained to me ,
as in the final as shown in my pic in 1971 .
Also note Last versions had Foam core wings and where tail-daggers (Optional nose gear shown ) .
Steve




sehlers 12-18-2012 09:55 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Not sure if I will have time to build soon , but last summer , I also did get the last generation El Gringo Kit designed by Ted White .
It's a Model Merchant Pre Fabbed ,Pre RTC type plane of the 70's .

I may sell it but I would like to build one after I measure it and build from scratch in the future .I didn't know Eddie at Lazor Works had
a short kit for it ,but I like foam wings, rather than built up as Version 1 had ,which is just as Ted used in his final version .
Steve

Skip 12-19-2012 06:58 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
:D Thanks for the info and pix. I would have preferred a foam wing but that was not available. I wish they would kit this model for us builders. I would like to continue making minor changes in the plane for astetic and aerodynamic reasons. Not only was Ted a great flyer but he could build a nice plane too. I remember Model Merchant and Don Downing back then from Dallas. ( EK radios) I am dating mysef !! I wish they were still around. It sure saved a lot of time to have a framed out model. They also had a Martin Baker MB 5 which looked a lot like a P 51. I saw Ted re-kit an MB 5 at our flying field which proves that even the best fliers screw up at times. Ha!

proparc 12-19-2012 09:08 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
Skip, I know I already made a comment about your plane but Man, this is some classly business you whipped here. This is like showing up at a fancy restaurant with a Rolls Royce and a big tip!! What a nice choice, and a very nice implementation of a classic pattern ship.

I much prefer version 2 which is the one you made as opposed to the Mustang version. Cleaner lines

eness76-RCU 12-19-2012 09:45 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
Great looking plane, Skip! Hope to see it out contesting next summer!

Taurus Flyer 12-19-2012 10:27 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
Skip, El Gringo?

What did I write about copyrights and related items, See my post.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11323557

When writing about the classic pattern model airplanes, we recognize the copies and the process seems to be accepted, think about the Tiporare, Intruder etc..
By giving these planes the identical or related name we are forced to think the capabilities are comparative (or even better), but the simple fact is, the idee, or formula; is "stolen".


So for the El Gringo we look at rhe datails of the El Toro of Marty Moad,
First plans published , Americam Modeler September 1961 and maybe also later published in 1967 in the same magazin.

Amazing for me is to recognize a design detail (fault?) of El Toro back in the El Gringo!

Taurus and Orion Flyer

Dean Pappas 12-19-2012 11:29 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
Hello Steve,
So if I have a set of plans from the 1970 RCM construction article, what do I change to make the plane conform to a version 4 or 5 el Gringo?
Thanks in advance,
Dean Pappas

sehlers 12-19-2012 10:05 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Skip ,
Yes Ted was a Heck of a Pilot and very well known around the RC community . Since I have been working on the History of The Fort Worth Thunderbirds R/C club the past year or so ,I have learned a lot about some of the Pioneers in the Club . Many I remember as a kid growing up and later in life when I moved to Fort Worth and Flew R/C again, I got to fly with them in their senior years . Many are known to the entire Modeling community like Ted White , Chuck Cunningham , Ed Rankin ,Roy Klett ,to name just a few that most modelers around the country would recognize their names .

Don was a Great guy also . I remember him flying F-1 back in the early 70's and to see him struggle and still fly the course with his handicap ,was remarkable . I last remember him working in the Model Lab at Lockheed . In case you didn't know ,after he passed away a few years ago ,his family had a friend of mind Spread his ashes over the Old Thunderbird Field @ Benbrook Lake from his full Scale Cub .
Steve

sehlers 12-19-2012 10:18 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Proparc ,
Skips plane looks the Same as the late version ,with the Mustang type tail placements .Don't know why you think it has cleaner lines
when in fact it doesn't look like the original RCM version . This has to mean that Eddie at Lazor Werks is Not cutting the airplane the
same as the RCM plans or maybe Skip changed to the late design Fuselage moments .

sehlers 12-19-2012 10:35 PM

RE: El Gringo
 
Dean ,
I recognize your name from way back !! What an honor to "School" you on model airplanes :-) lol . The main differences that I know of are 1. The Stab is moved forward in fuse so that elevator trailing edge is close to even with the end of the fuse sides . The Rudder is hinged at that point ,ie., like I mentioned in earlier post ,same as what Joe Bridi did with the Koas to Super Kaos .2. All of his planes and many of the customers with Model Merchant kits ,made them Tail Draggers to save weight and who ever heard of a P-51 with Tricycle landing gear ??? Oh ,I forgot about the trainer version .lol . 3. The top turtle back was not carved balsa block ,but was built with a couple formers ,and a sheet of 3/8 and 2 of 1/2" to make a hollow structure ,sanded to rounded shape .

BTW , I'm getting my Ukie stuff out to play with again .Who knows ,maybe we can get our local SPA guys to get interested too ,like Chip is doing out west . I used to fly fast combat and Stunt for fun . Stunt was my first 1st place in a contest as a kid .
Steve

Taurus Flyer 12-20-2012 03:36 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

ORIGINAL: sehlers

Dean ,
I recognize your name from way back !! What an honor to ''School'' you on model airplanes :-) lol . The main differences that I know of are 1. The Stab is moved forward in fuse so that elevator trailing edge is close to even with the end of the fuse sides . The Rudder is hinged at that point ,ie., like I mentioned in earlier post ,same as what Joe Bridi did with the Koas to Super Kaos .2. All of his planes and many of the customers with Model Merchant kits ,made them Tail Draggers to save weight and who ever heard of a P-51 with Tricycle landing gear ??? Oh ,I forgot about the trainer version .lol . 3. The top turtle back was not carved balsa block ,but was built with a couple formers ,and a sheet of 3/8 and 2 of 1/2'' to make a hollow structure ,sanded to rounded shape .

BTW , I'm getting my Ukie stuff out to play with again .Who knows ,maybe we can get our local SPA guys to get interested too ,like Chip is doing out west . I used to fly fast combat and Stunt for fun . Stunt was my first 1st place in a contest as a kid .
Steve

Steve,

See my post 17 and take a close look at the 'El Toro' in the picture.
We see this "move" of the stab already was made by Marty Moad, in September 1961.

When you know about aerodynamics, especially related to pattern flying, there are more details to talk about but these aren't related to the El Gringo, but basically to El Toro so off topic.
Of course you can have attention for the carved top of the canopy!!

TF

sehlers 12-20-2012 07:42 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
Taurus Flyer -

From your post I assume you are inferring that Ted White Stole the Design ,Renamed it , and took credit for it ??? Because a person named Marty Moad made an Airplane called El Toro - in the early 60's .......

Other than having a Spanish name with a Masculine Prefix ,there are little similarities in the airframe design . There are no numerical dimensions in your plans to compare specifically ,but suffice it to say the fuse moments are different ,the fuse is construction is different ,The horizontal span is different ,the Rudder design is different, the Wing Airfoils are different .I can go on .....

Furthermore , the Horizontal movement was made by Ted in his design for the reasons I gave ,not to look like or copy the El Toro .

From what I know about R/C Precision acrobatics , in 1962 were they even doing 4 and 8 point rolls ? Slow Rolls ?? Knife Edge ? I don't have a 1961 AMA rule book or FIA manual ,if there was such a thing ,so I don't know with out some research .

Again Ted moved the tail to correct a pitching condition his first design had ,as he told me . Again if he stole the Idea from Moad ,you should lay blame also to Joe Bridi for using the same design criteria in his Super Koas in 1973 ....

What you are saying is basically, if an airplane has Any design trait or look of Any previously flown aircraft it Must be a Copy ......

Wow, the FAI and Masters pattern flyers of today would have a litigation nightmare with that one !

I will Talk to Ted personally and report back here with the "Truth" about the El Toro vs El Gringo Debate !

Happy Holidays to all !!!

Taurus Flyer 12-20-2012 08:25 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

ORIGINAL: sehlers

Taurus Flyer -

From your post I assume you are inferring that Ted White Stole the Design ,Renamed it , and took credit for it ??? Because a person named Marty Moad made an Airplane called El Toro - in the early 60's .......

Other than having a Spanish name with a Masculine Prefix ,there are little similarities in the airframe design . There are no numerical dimensions in your plans to compare specifically ,but suffice it to say the fuse moments are different ,the fuse is construction is different ,The horizontal span is different ,the Rudder design is different, the Wing Airfoils are different .I can go on .....

Furthermore , the Horizontal movement was made by Ted in his design for the reasons I gave ,not to look like or copy the El Toro .

From what I know about R/C Precision acrobatics , in 1962 were they even doing 4 and 8 point rolls ? Slow Rolls ?? Knife Edge ? I don't have a 1961 AMA rule book or FIA manual ,if there was such a thing ,so I don't know with out some research .

Again Ted moved the tail to correct a pitching condition his first design had ,as he told me . Again if he stole the Idea from Moad ,you should lay blame also to Joe Bridi for using the same design criteria in his Super Koas in 1973 ....

What you are saying is basically, if an airplane has Any design trait or look of Any previously flown aircraft it Must be a Copy ......

Wow, the FAI and Masters pattern flyers of today would have a litigation nightmare with that one !

I will Talk to Ted personally and report back here with the ''Truth'' about the El Toro vs El Gringo Debate !

Happy Holidays to all !!!
Steve,
Don't need to research, I know where I am writing about, the El Toro was well known, that was an important fact just as the Orion of course.
Red and blue square, 1961


Taurus Flyer


eness76-RCU 12-20-2012 08:48 AM

RE: El Gringo
 
I see a lot more similarities between the El Toro and the Orion and Astro Hog, than I do the El Gringo.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:49 AM.