DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

One of the things the RCPRO Club 40 Committee is considering for a change in 2013 is disallowing bubbless (or bubbleless) tanks.

So far the vote has leaned toward not allowing them but I am considering using persuasion or overriding that decision to keep the current rule that allows them.

I know that you can't just buy them anywhere. But JETT has them and Central Hobbies has Tettra tanks all of the time.

RCPRO Club 40 (Advanced) is not a novice racing class. It is sport racing using sport models and sport engines. This thing that some people are pushing of stock, stock, stock, is a bit of wishful thinking. No two planes assembled by two different modelers are identical and one or the other will have an advantage. Some of the things I do on my planes give mine an advantage. Other people have things they do that make theirs better. I had someone at the Lowes races in 2008 and 2009 almost demanding that we use APC 9x6 props for parity. He thought he had the answer to equal competition. How many of you guys that want stock, stock, stock, want to mandate a specific prop? if you go that far, why not mandate specific servos, because I can tell you that high end digital servos make the airplanes fly better? Even Spektrum DS821's give a much more precise feel. And there you are with an extra $50-300 per plane depending on the servos used.

Jim McGuinn stopped by my house last night. He was looking at one of my planes and I had him look at the tail of one of my planes. He saw my Dubro hardware. But then he saw my tail wheel installation. My tail wheels have always been sloppy. He told me what he does. It is simple, but it fixes sloppy ground handling. His little extra effort is an example of technique making things better.

Bubbless tanks can be an advantage if a person knows how to tune an engine properly and fill the tank properly. If the person can't tune the engine to the right click on the needle, the tank is not a help at all. If the person can't place and restrain the tank properly, the bubbless tank will not work. For a novice, getting a JETT tank and filling it is easier than a stock tank though if he has someone to show him how. I have the #88 with a fuel soaked fuselage because the back metal stopper retainer let go in a stock tank. If I had put a JETT tank in it, I would not be dealing with cleaning a fuel soaked fuselage and recovering the landing gear area.

I have had more than one stock tank with a stripped stopper retainer or a cracked tank.

I worked with AirBorne Models to fix the weak landing gear and to fix the vibrating cheeks among other issues. I don't have a solution for the tanks as that is just Chinese hardware and quality control.

Bubbless tanks can remain legal in RCPRO Club 40 if that is what people want. I have had more emails from people that want them to remain legal than I have had that want them to go away.

I had someone ask me via Facebook if ceramic bearings are legal. Yes they are. They are legal in the AMA R/C Pylon Racing General Rules section and RCPRO Club 40 uses the same general specifications for replacement items. I have ceramic bearings and stainless steel bearings in some of my engines.

Head shims can be changed as well.

Note that I'm talking about RCPRO Club 40. There are quite a few groups using the RCPRO Club 40 rules that are relatively quiet on the forums. And some groups have their variants. That is ok. Everyone has their needs. States have their own governments for their needs, but someone has to set the base rules and since RCPRO established the Club 40 rules, we will continue until people want someone else to do it.

I would like to hear from people on the bubbless tanks. Speak up if you have an opinion either way. This will be decided soon and input is needed now.

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

Don,

I understand where you are coming from but the Alabama clubs are for keeping the airplane stock and that means a clunk style tank.  Every CD in our group is against the bubble-less tanks, period.

Last year we decided to outlaw bubble-less tanks and backplate engine mounts. Yes, we caught a lot of flak about the rule changes but what really happened was that the guys who were consistant winners that were taking advantage of the tanks and mounts were no longer winning all of the time. We started having more and more race winners. In other words the playing field was leveled. Instead of bringing everyone up a notch, we pushed to keep 'em stock. 

I like to think of Club 40 as the hometown 1/4 mile race track. Keep it simple and fun. If you want to do some high dollar racing go right ahead and jump into AMA rule book pylon racing (if you can find any....). For us, we just want to have fun and keeping it simple is the best way to do that. If someone wants to go beyond Club 40, then go ahead. We are happy where we are. Just look at our growth and longivity so far.

Tim

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

I disagree with Tim.  There is absolutely no power advantage to a bubbless tank.  I was one that was affected by your (Alabama's) decision.  I don't remember anyone else but me running a bubbless tank and the Major complaint was I wouldn't start up on the line till everyone else had started and mostly taken off as I was running a 4 oz. tank.  I know it really chafed Rick Grimm and probably others that I didn't jump right up in the sky and start running wide open waiting for the count down clock.  But that was an old holdover from my Formula 1 days where if you cranked right up and sat on the ground while someone else had a problem you burned up your engine.

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

I remember the reasons I got into Club 40 several years ago; 'Entrance Level Have Fun Pylon Racing', everyone fly's the same plane, built per instructions, no modifications, original equipment only, etc, etc; Engines used were supposed to be stock, right out of the box, no modifications or substituting parts, original carb and exhaust, etc, etc; I got out of Club 40 because all these guidelines were tossed out the window, I just wasn't up to or agreed with the changes, that's just my choice, I hold no regret or ill feeling.

cwesh

I agree with Doug and Tim. The #1 reason I got out of Club 40 was the changes made to the rules. I was looking for a Pilots race, a fun race, not racing where you needed to spend $$$ on hardware to keep up, fancy bearings. special head shims, etc. Club 40 was originally billed as a box stock pilots race for all, sadly as it seems with all racing, $$$ rules, it is gone for the most part, it makes me wish Alabama and Tim's group was closer...

skull1971

Doug and Chuck, there are a few items that have been addressed in Texas Club 40, but nothing to warrant the idea of having to spend to win. I do use a bubble tank, the same one I have the first race I showed with. We did get a prop rule, back plate, mounts are out too. I'm sure you both remember how bad I was when I first started, and know that I now run pretty good and have won races, and fast times. I did it with the exact SAME equipment!! Same motor/ muffler, servo's, fuel tank, Rx/Tx I did have to change planes due to mid air's and racing crashes. My point is, I changed nothing!! I just learned to needle the engine better, fly a closer course, I wore out the first "Skully" plane just flying laps here at home.

As for the other issues we had,, please don't judge the entire group because a few bad apples did spend the money, and TRIED to pull a fast one and got caught. Since 2008 when I started with Club 40, I have never seen such even racing, like we had at Waco this year.

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

Hey Skully, appreciate the reply, I got into this same discussion online here on RCU 2 years ago, and the common theme in the discussion was that you had to spend time and money, to what was called tweaking, and Chuck is right on, you could no longer build a plane out of the box per instructions, run an engine with stock parts, including bearings and shims out of the box, fly clean and be competitive; and when I heard about the possibilty that some were putting 46 size parts in a 40 size engine, true or false, that was it for me, and for what, a $5.00 trophy; it may be the case that only a few spend considerable more money than the rest, but for me thats a few too many, it may be that I didn't fly as well as some, but when you get into a corner tight with everyone else and they leave you in the dust on the back stretch, then I guess its money well spent, not by me but by others, and I'm OK with that, I chose not to play anymore, I have plenty of other flying to do, and I am more than happy to help out at the races like I have done a few times this year.

Apologies to Don, like so many discussion threads here on RCU, the origianl subject matter gets lost, the question had to do with the use of bubbless Tanks, I think if everyone uses them than fine, however, not everyone uses them, argument was made that no competive edge is given when using them, arguments can be found to the contrary, if you follow the original guidelines of Club 40, in that Out of the Box Stock equipment, then bubbless tanks should not be used.

I don't race anymore, so my opinion is invalid.

dphill2

My Feedback: (1)

Well said Eric,
All of the stuff that has been alowed to be changed, came from sombody trying to get an advantage or pushing the rules !!!
WE changed the tank rule because of the extra time it took to fuel it and the people that had them, fueled their airplane from a different
source..
The changes that were made, was to make Club-40 as simple as it could and the most bang for the buck !!!
If the rules you talk about Don, come into place then everybody needs to go buy some headshims and a new tank !!!! Now we are right back where we started !!! Why Spend the money when the racing is better ............

Dave.........

mikegordon10

If I hadn't read it here I wouldn't have believed it. Man I had better be getting one of them thar bubbleless fuel tanks. Prolly make me go about 50 mph faster!
You can't be serious!
How about a specified glue or how about a generic type of sand paper. Ya had aughta allow nothing except Moneycoat!
Get a life, no reason to micro manage the whole thing.

rcpilot32

My Feedback: (67)

A little story:

About 18 years ago in Jacksonville, Fl. They were having a SEMPRA race. All of us were using the Jett 40 super sport. A friend that I was calling for had spent all the money he could on his plane, radio, and Jett 40 engine. Even had Jett set it up for him. I was calling for him trying to keep him calm. All that was coming out of his mouth was cuss words about the other pilots were cheating because he was getting beat so bad. He called for me for one heat and called me a double cut on pylon one. I was out of the first 3 spots with the zero. It was down to the final heat of the day when I asked him if he would let me fly his plane just to see how it flew. I had never flown his plane before. He agreed. I flew his plane. Not only did I win the heat, I also took home the fast time trophy. I forgot to mention that he was also cussing his racer.

After I landed,I told him to quit his whinning and practice more. It was about this time that SEMPRA almost folded for lack of pilots. Constant complaining by the members. I heard enough and did not renew my membership in SEMPRA.

I have a good friend that loves to race Q40 and quicky. He refuses to race C40 because he says we are all a bunch of whiners and complainers and that you can't be sure of the rules if you go to a race out of state.

Be very careful of what is going on here. I quit putting on races in SC because of the whiners and complainers sending me emails and calling me complaining.

Drilling out the muffler does not give you an advantage, it slows you down. Bubbless or clunk tanks make no difference in speed. It's how you set the needle. These little things that people are complaining about only add to the destruction of C40 racing. Don't let this happen to C40. I have been flying rc for 44 years and racing airplanes for 30. Have been a CD for 35 years. Listen to people that have many years of experience.

Just my thoughts.
James Barr

gefisher

My Feedback: (2)

James, that was well said! We have tested the bubbles tank and there is NO SPEED advantage to this tank and as for the taking to long to fill them guys we are not under the green flag here on pit stops! If RCPRO
Board sets these rules then the hole country NOT REGINS but the hole country that is running Club 40 needs to follow only these rules… It’s not rocket science here folks it’s just Club 40 pylon racing...

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

These were the original objectives for Club 40

If you look on the [link=http://www.rcpro.org/content/rcpro/club_40/objectives.aspx]Club 40 Objectives[/link] page you will see that it says Note: Back in 2004/2005 these were the design objectives for Club 40. They have worked well.

In my opinion, the objectives have worked well as Club 40 has been tried all over the country.

I do think that my hiatus in 2010/2011 hurt the cause some as there was a need for more leadership in the aftermath of my 'Pylon Racing for Everyone' article.

Jim McGuinn was on vacation and was able to stop by my house on Thursday night. One of his questions to me was "Why are you not taking a more active role in the rules conversations?" I told him that I have been trying to just be more of a contributor and to let things follow their course as people nudge and sway things.

I think it is time that I step back up to address some of the discourse that is going on. We have great things happening. But to hear one of the organizers of the Tuscaloosa race lamenting that changing head shims and aileron servo mixing is changing the game bothers me. Club 40 is competition. People win in competition. People prepare for competition. Rules have to be solid and consistent. Peope have to know what the boundaries are so they can push themselves to their best.

I got the Club 40 Committee roster from Ken Erickson. From what I see no one on the committee even has experience with bubbless tanks. That is anthemic to the way I do things. I test and run things through the wringer.

I was flying and racing Four Star 40 planes with TT Pro 40 enginess on them in 2004/2005 and calling it Sport 40 well before anybody in Texas started doing Club 40. When Ken Erickson contacted me in 2006 and was looking for a formula to use for racing, I suggested Club 40 which I had renamed Sport 40 to and I had switched to the Sky Raider Mach II. I think the LA Racer 40 had just come out. But I had done a lot of testing and James Barr and Bill Johanson and I had already had 3 pole pylon parties on my field with Club 40 planes and we knew the planes flew well. I knew what needed to be done to get the planes to fly well and how to set them up.

It's called "Common Modeling Practices" or "Accepted Modeling Practices". Everyone that assembles more than one Club 40 plane varies from the instructions. You either drill out the holes in the landing gear hold down straps, or you replace the pushrod keepers or you do something different. if ANYONE of you who is completitive assembles the plane with all of the stock parts and doesn't do something different that the instructions, please raise your hand. Every since my second plane, I use [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD936]Dubro Control Horns Super Strength T-Style (2)[/link] and I use [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK081]Great Planes Nylon Clevis 2-56 (12)[/link] because they have a stop to keep the fuel line keeper from coming off. I use Dubro 2-56 pushrods even though they are a tiny bit tighter in the tubes.

What we need to do is focus on things like the great turnout we see for the Tuscaloosa race and the new venues. We need to not let little rules issues distract potential newcomers. We need to not fragment the community over a piece of metal in a tank.

I have been working very hard on RCPRO this year, as well as things like the [link=http://www.abmshowcase.com/]AirBorne Models Showcase[/link]. My major focus on the Showcase has been the Club 40 planes so that potential Club 40 newcomers can see kit pictures and get ordering information.

I will continue to work hard and the RCPRO Committee will see some refinements in process and what is published.

skull1971

I'll raise my hand!!
Other than the bubble Jett tank, and spinner, I use everything in the box! I figure it's gonna mid-air anyway why spend extra money for nothing.

Tx_RcFlyer

My Feedback: (7)

Ditto to what Eric does. Except, I used to runa 4 oz clunk tank. However, My most recent planes, I have gone back to the stock tank but went to 4-40 rods on the control surfaces. For me, the plane actually feelsa lot more solid\stable in flight with the bigger control rods. I did have to remove the nylon guide tubes to accomodate the rods. So now my question is: Are my 4-40 rods legal for the nationals race since I had to remove the nylon guide tubes?

skull1971

As a Texas CD, Id say yes, if all you did was to go to the bigger rods.

dphill2

My Feedback: (1)

As a Alabama CD I will say yes as well, Push rods are not a game changer !! and No to the tank thing !!!

Dave

skull1971

That's fine, I can beat you with either tank.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

In my opinion, this page [link]http://www.rcpro.org/html/rules/club_40/modifications.htm[/link] should not have been taken off of the RCPRO Club 40 Rules and I am pushing to re-instate it.

Because ... relative to your question ...

Hardware:

3. Pushrods, if replaced, must exit the fuselage sides in the same position as original specification.

Chuck Waller and the original RCPRO Club 40 Committee did a great job of compiling the list of just about anything anybody could think of that they would want to do within reason.

I believe we should re-instate this list NOW ... a full 90 days before the October 13-14 race so that EVERYONE has a chance to prepare for a level playing field. But Jim McGuinn will have to agree and sign off on it. And we need some response if anyone objects.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

You even use the engine mounting screws?

I have NEVER used the stock mounting screws. It is too hard to change an engine using the double nuts and drilled through holes. I had used the stock screws on a different World Models kit and it was a pain.

I always tap the mount for 6-32 threads and use 6-32 socket head screws. I have to open up the engine mounting lugs a little. I just use a 9/64" drill. But the mount holds the threads as tight as I can tighten them and I can change engines in just a minute.

See Barry Reade's technique at [link]http://www.rcpro.org/net/ThreadView.aspx?threadid=1079#msg10[/link] and [link]http://www.rcpro.org/net/ThreadView.aspx?threadid=1079#msg11[/link]

skull1971

Yes, I use the mounting screws too! As I said before (Kinda), I might throw it away on it's first heat race, so why spend a bunch of extra money on a known "Lawn Dart?"

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

Skull,

Have you noticed that the "pretty" planes are amoung the first to die? The plain solid color racers with simple stripes seem to last and last.

When we first started C40 racing here guys were doing some beautiful covering jobs. Not one of those planes survived their first race. One guy had done a fantastic covering job in the Red Bull color logos. I think it lasted two or three heat races.......

I have been part of at least three mid-airs so I'm with you, keep it cheap and carry a trash bag.........

Tim

dphill2

My Feedback: (1)

The Hardware is not somthing that will make or break the airplane !! I don't see motor mt bolts or pushrods making it go faster..
We have said all along you can replace any of it with aftermarket parts !!
The only thing it must be a replacment part or like item. I did not see where anybody said you could change the placment of the pushrod, I think he ask if it was OK to go to a larger pushrod.. Club-40 was sold as a entrylevel pylon event and has had a lot of sucess being that. Guy's can see where they can buy an airplane over the counter and race !!! They don't have to spend a lot of money on special motors, tanks, mounts Etc. to race and be compeitive.. This is fun racing !!!! and don't hurt near as bad when you ball one up !!

Skull I can't wait !!!

Dave..

skull1971

Where's the Bama rule on tanks again? I have too use the one that came in the box, or any clunk tank?

dphill2

My Feedback: (1)

Stock tank or a like replacment !!!!!

Dave..

MFLOOD3800

My Feedback: (51)

Just an observation on the original post in regards to clunk or bubbless tanks:

No straight speed increase, Is arguable- but through the corners there is a definate advantage.
I race a viper and have the jett tank set up. When and if I win, it is by the turn, not the straights.
I can set my plane closer to the peak RPM' with the Jett tank where others need to be 300-400 off.
That is a slight advantage for me of about 100-200 rpms.

But it is in the corners where my plane slingshots out of the turn. It is quite obvious too.

These are just my observations