Club 40 Discuss all Club 40 flying here.

club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

Reply
Old 04-20-2012, 06:05 PM
  #1
fastfredy
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bertram, TX
Posts: 30
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

Hey guys, is there a better way to handle cuts tracking without using a 11th lap penalty? I would like to recommend using a 10 second add on time penalty rather than flying an additional lap. This simplifies the heat racing because everyone flies 10 laps and then if a pilot has a cut just add on 10 seconds to figure out the finish order. This is similar to how the giant scale guys have been doing it for years. This makes it much easier for the lap counters and workers. Any comments?
FF
fastfredy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 06:23 PM
  #2
JohnMcGowan
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 2,067
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

Hi DoubleF ,
what we do here in Bama is if someone makes a cut in the 10 lap heats, they only get 1 point for that heat. That pilot has just earned him a 4th place point and 1 point score for that heat . He may as well pull up and get out of the other guys way
We score 1st place as 4 pts, 2nd place as 3 pts, 3rd place as 2 pts and 4th place as 1 pt. We found that it is just simpler to do scoring this way, especially if you have a large number of pilots flying that day. Should the same pilot make 2 cuts during the same heat race, he then has earned him a big fat ZERO for that heat. And yes, that has happened!

We used to do the 11 lap penalty thing if you made the first cut, but going to 10 laps really simplified everything.
We dont worry about times so much here although we do have spotters who stand behind the pilots and they do have a stopwatch to record both their pilot's time as well as lap. Ive recently purchased 4 stopwatches that will record each lap time as well as total number of laps as well as the total time the pilot took to finish 10 laps.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot,....one problem that I may see with what you are thinking to do is; lets say you and 3 other pilots are going for 10 laps. You are flying really,really well and fast and are pulling ahead of everyone behind you.You are in the lead and hauling the mail!! On lap 2 you make a cut. But by lap 8 or 9 you have lapped and passed the guys who were behind you. Then, because you were that fast, you were able to still be out front and make the 11th lap STILL ahead of the pack So now, how would the scoring judges handle that? See what kinds of problems that could present scoring wise ? Ive actually seen the above scenario happen!
I hope this may help you some with your decisions and questions .
Take care,
John
JohnMcGowan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 07:35 PM
  #3
skull1971
 
skull1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Willis, TX
Posts: 1,569
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: fastfredy

Hey guys, is there a better way to handle cuts tracking without using a 11th lap penalty? I would like to recommend using a 10 second add on time penalty rather than flying an additional lap. This simplifies the heat racing because everyone flies 10 laps and then if a pilot has a cut just add on 10 seconds to figure out the finish order. This is similar to how the giant scale guys have been doing it for years. This makes it much easier for the lap counters and workers. Any comments?
FF
No keep it the way it is, why reinvent the wheel? Plus for some 10 seconds is no real penalty, but a lap is.
skull1971 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2012, 03:35 AM
  #4
Oldbob
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: georgetown, TX
Posts: 631
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

With the racehorse start we use the first lap takes about 15 to 20 seconds, after that each lap takes about 7 seconds for those that fly tight and 9 seconds for those that fly not-so-tight. Based on these numbers I think that a 10 second penalty or flying the 11th lap are about the same. However there has been some confusion about cuts that have occurred on that eleventh lap, and adding a penalty will eliminate that confusion. The main difference between the 10 second penalty and the one point penalty is that with 10 seconds added the fastest guy still has a chance to win the heat; with the one point system the fast guy gets last place. Now if everyone has a cut and each is given one point it is a tie, with on one winning the heat. This should encourage the cut-addicts to loosen up a bit. Two or three points are better than one point.
I like the idea of eliminating the 11th lap, and I can accept either of the penalty approaches, but leaning a bit toward the one point idea.
Bob
Oldbob is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2012, 07:27 PM
  #5
Ken Erickson
 
Ken Erickson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Columbus, IN
Posts: 701
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

Enthusiasts,

The original RCPRO Club 40 “Procedures” were based on the AMA Competition Regulations for Pylon Racing. For 2010, because the RCPRO Warbird racers were beginning to use Club 40 as an intro to their style of racing, we incorporated their rules into ours to recognize them. Below are the pertinent sections:

From the AMA Competition Regulations for Pylon Racing:
13.1.10. All aircraft are to be signaled
the moment they break the plane (“gate”)
established by the #1 pylon and the flaggers’
position. There will be no signals at the #2 or #3
pylons unless a pylon is cut. The judges shall use
an appropriate method to notify pilots of cuts. If
possible, such notification shall be simultaneous;
however, it is not grounds for a re-fly if the pilot
does not receive notification of a cut before the
completion of the heat.
13.1.11. If a pylon is cut, that lap shall
not be counted. In addition, a cut penalty shall be
assessed for any flying over the designated
sideline, pit, or spectator area or in “no-fly”
zones clearly identified at a pre-race pilots’
meeting. A pilot who cuts twice in the same heat
shall receive a score of zero points and, if both
cuts occur before the last lap, the starter shall
give that pilot the black flag.


From the RCPRO “Procedures” for RCPRO Club 40:

13.1.10. If equipment and/or personnel is available, aircraft are to be signaled the moment they break the plane (“gate”) established by the 2 pylons and the flaggers' positions. (See 13.2.2.b)
The judges shall use an appropriate method to notify pilots of cuts. If possible, such notification shall be simultaneous; however, it is not grounds for a refly if the pilot does not receive notification of a cut before the completion of the heat.
13.1.11.1. AMA-Style cut procedures. If a pylon is cut, that lap shall not be counted. In addition, a cut penalty shall be assessed for any flying over the designated sideline, pit, or spectator area or in “no-fly” zones clearly identified at a pre-race pilots' meeting. A pilot who cuts twice in the same heat shall receive a score of zero points and, if both cuts occur before the last lap, the starter shall give that pilot the black flag.
13.1.11.2 RCPRO Warbird-Style cut procedures
Effect of cuts on Points Awarded- (from RCPRO Warbird Rules)
If an aircraft cuts one pylon, by not flying past it, that aircraft will only receive 1 point, regardless of finish position. Any aircraft cutting more than one pylon will receive no (0) points for that heat. Aircraft finishing without cuts behind aircraft receiving cuts, will be have their finish position advanced one place in their standing for each aircraft ahead of them that received cuts. The following four-plane heat example illustrates the point scoring system:
1st place finisher with 1 cut – 1 point
2nd place finisher with 2 cuts – 0 Points
3rd place finisher with no cuts – 4 points
4th place finisher with no cuts – 3 Points


AMA style states “The judges shall use an appropriate method to notify pilots of cuts. If possible, such notification shall be simultaneous”. We first did this with flags, then walkie-talkies.
Note that there is no mention of an 11th lap! It says, “If a pylon is cut, that lap shall not be counted.” In late 2006 we began doing just that! Explanation follows.

However, 2006 was a long time ago. Few people remember or are around. We used this system before we had Stan Douglas’ lap counting program.

Also consider that many of you have noticed the situation of a new lap counter person not being able to remember to hit the button on a Stop Watch at the moment they count the 10th lap.

Sit in a chair and imagine that you are counting laps. You have a Stop Watch in your dominant hand. Your secondary hand is in a loosely closed fist. You hit the button as the first two planes are flagged off the starting line (or in the case of an air start, at the “Start Signal”). As the plane you are watching completes the first lap you count it by raising the thumb of the hand which is not holding the Stop Watch. Lap two is counted by raising your index finger. For lap three you raise your middle finger. Lap four gets your ring finger. Lap five is counted by raising your Pinkie. Oh-OH, a cut!! Drop back the Pinkie and lap five was not counted. The next lap is now lap five, counted by raising your Pinkie. Pull in your thumb to count lap 6, your index to count lap 7, your middle finger to count lap 8, your ring finger to count lap 9. . . . For lap 10, raise the Stop Watch in the air and hit the button, recording the time and call out “First”, or “Second”, or etc as fitting!!!!!

You counted 10 good laps. The inexperienced Starter, who does not point to the leading plane during the race, not actually able because of inexperience, could be standing behind the lap counting people and sees which hand comes up first, second and etc. A lot of people have an idea of the order of finish and you have the times .

In Alabama, they have found Stop watches which are clicked every lap, assuring that the time is correct at the end of the heat. But laps must still be counted. Of course, the Stop Watch will have 11 lap times when the person calls lap 10. But that is the correct aggregate time for 10 counted laps!

To most this will sound like reverse engineering, but it is the way to not count the lap in which there is a cut. "If a pylon is cut, that lap shall not be counted.” Try it, you may like it.

Warbird-Style: Cuts are not called in during the heat but are reported afterwards. Ten laps are counted, without the pilots knowing if they cut. Then, “Oh darn!”

I guess it is not hard to see which I like better.

Best thing since sliced bread for AMA-Style is the JudgeTimer program and the modified Logitech Dual Action Controller. All the LCpeople have to do is push a button each lap. (Don't even consider the F310 unless you can figure out the switch function.) Get a Dual Action Controller. If you can't get the software, contact me. Instructions for a simple conversion are on RCPRO.org. Stan Douglas had one on RCU, maybe he will refresh it.

Longest RCU post ever for me.

Ken Erickson
Ken Erickson is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2012, 04:43 AM
  #6
Oldbob
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: georgetown, TX
Posts: 631
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

Ken, thanks for the explanation. Your example of the cut on lap 5 is understandable and manageable during the race. But in my experience the confusion comes with a cut on the last lap, whether it’s the tenth or the eleventh lap, as is often the case. If I cut early in the heat I tend to press as tight as I can to pass the other planes before the end of the race, and say I do that and I and everyone declares me the winner. But wait, a cut was called in on my last lap. While the guidelines say that the cut should be called simultaneously, if possible, we all know that it is not possible to get this information to those that need-to-know simultaneously. Jubilation is now despair. It is the lag time between the moment the cut happens and the moment that those who need-to-know hear the news.
This confusion can also happen in a heat where there are no cuts. We can have four planes ducking it out for 9 laps with a photo finish at the end, but one or more cut on the last lap. We know how often this happens. I think that flying only 10 laps will go a long way in reducing the confusion with cuts at the end of a heat.
Bob
Oldbob is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2012, 07:18 AM
  #7
fastfredy
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bertram, TX
Posts: 30
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

Hey guys good input, but My post was to make us look at how we can make it easier for the lap counters and cut judges who support our racing. My experience in CDing many races through the years is that the NMPRA system has always caused confusion with the extra lap penalty. It looks like other CD's and clubs have already tried to go around this 11th lap penalty and I would think its because of the difficulty in trying to keep up with that extra lap and the timing of when the cut happens and the communication to the lap counters and pilots. As I pointed out this penalty time can be adjusted to 8, 9 or 10 seconds depending on what you think is fair. This is nothing new and has been used in giant scale and many other types of pylon races. I think that its worth giving it a try and see how it works approach in Texas.

Ken, I got my Accusplit 625 stopwatches the other day and they work great and would recommend these for everyone. I'll make my watches available to anyone that wants to use them, got 5 of them.
FF
fastfredy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2012, 05:20 AM
  #8
Tbatt
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: HarvestAL
Posts: 692
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?



fastfredy, I feel your pain. For a couple of seasons we struggled with this very same thing and finally gave up and went to the one point rule for cuts. It is simple and it works. The software we use supports the rule and that makes it even better.

Unless you have a group of time keepers that are dedicated to the task, keeping time for each plane is iffy at best. We go by finish order and then if we have a contention we use the time. Our callers are also the time keepers and during the excitement they sometimes forget to start their watches or stop them. Before the pilots leave the line we get an agreement on the finish order and cuts. That info is passed to scoring and they follow the rule of one point for the first cut and zero fo two. Even with that scoring can get complicated.

The timing system is not the problem, watches or a PC with timing software only work as good as the operators. We run our races with a minimum of workers and concentrate on the fun. Ken and I agree that we need to think of Club 40 racing as dirt track. good 'ol boys racin'. Have fun and don't take it too seriously.  If you want to get serious, that is what AMA pylon racing is for. We are just having fun and you can tell it by all of the smiles at the end of a heat race.

Good luck and keep up the CD job. I know what it is like.........

Tim

Tbatt is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2012, 06:40 PM
  #9
gefisher
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Georgetown, TX
Posts: 349
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

I don’t care for the 11th lap rule myself! You are right it just adds confusion to the scorers bench. The help that we get for our club races come from the guys mostly out of our clubs that volunteer for this work! It can be pretty confusing to these lap counter / timers! Us racers get pretty involved in this sport and very competitive at this racing but we need to keep in mined that the guys calling the cuts (cut judges) and the guys setting at the bench counting laps and timing are just doing this voluntarily so if there is a questionable call on a cut we need to respect there judgment on the calls. Back to the subject I think we should just run 10 laps and have the discussion on the 10 second add on or the 1 point for the cut penalty at out next race in Waco at the pilots meeting! What do you think racers?
fish
gefisher is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2012, 03:30 AM
  #10
Oldbob
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: georgetown, TX
Posts: 631
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: club 40 - cut tracking and 11th lap?

Good idea Gary, lets talk about this in Waco. And if we agree on one or the other method, maybe Jim can impliment it at that race.
Bob
Oldbob is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:27 AM.