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Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

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Old 07-12-2012, 09:49 AM
  #51
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

1" dial indicator is $14.99 ($13.99 on sale) at Harbor Freight

Digital version is $29.99

Digital caliper is only $14.99

$45 - $50 bucks gets you the tools. A couple of pictures on how to do the measurements and any club can do the checks.

I'll be glad to check these out and write up a procedure with pictures and arrows.
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:25 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Tbatt

I agree with OldBob. All we need to do is figure out how (we know that) and then enforce the rules. Going to a 46 size engine will really set some of our guys off. I myself have five engines that would be obsolete if we went to a 46. That would be expensive!

Harbor Freight has some very low cost measuring tools. I picked up one of their digital calipers for less than $20 and it is every bit as accurate as my $200 Brown and Sharp (Swiss) calipers. They have dial gages too.
Tbatt what i was suggesting was it might help some of these guys switch or even have two race planes and might get more people intrested in racing (only helping the sport) now if a guy wants to run a 46 then he will have to kinda over prop the engine so that it is on par with the "40".

Another thing if a guy is going to cheat he is going to do that. i race the T-34 stuff at my club and do the Triangle series also. this is set up for a 46 size engine only. With the only real people buying the 40 are you guys that are limited to the 40 engine. i think TT will soon stop making this engine as you can see with the parts thing now.

Also if a magnum 52 piston and sleeve will fit in a 46 case then it will fit in the "40"case. this is supposed to be fun and a entry into faster race classes. you will always have a few guys that will be faster than the rest. one guy will make sure the covering is super tight and with no wrinkles, the engine is broken in to perform best on selected prop, cowl is tightly sealed against the engine, no gaps anywhere. sealed control surface slots and so on.

To me its a easy fix aloow up to a 46 size engine of OS or TT brand. then if run a 46 you can only fly with a 11x5 or 11x6 APC prop. this will keep the "extra" speed down or even be a tad slower than the "40" but this will eventually phase out the "40's". now everyone will have a 46 that can run on other racing classes. as it is now your "40" cant run in the T-34 or other club racer events. OS just changed to a new 46 AXII and it may have less power than the old AX anyway as it looks like it has a smaller carb.
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Old 07-12-2012, 10:46 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Let me say this one more time "There will always be cheating in Racing what ever the venue is"  

You can minimize it but you will never stop it completely.  If you make the rules to restrictive it will run people off because it is to much hassle.  It is just as bad  as letting guys get away with rules infractions aka Cheating.  Some people feel if you are not on the edge of the rules you aren't competitive.  We walk a narrow line between the to.  Hopefully we can entice folks to come out an have some fun racing and not make it to restrictive.
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:26 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Here in Amarillo we race our Sky Raiders with a .46 sized engine.  Our last moths race we had a L.A. Racer in on the mix with a TT 40 and was lapped three time with in 10 laps. The next round the L.A. Racer took off first and was cutt in half by a Raider with a .46 and crashed. If you are going to be racing both .40 and .46 in the same heats be careful and let the .40 take off last. But there is a big difference in speed between the two engines. Limiting the prop to 11-5 11-6 may still leave the .46 to a advantage by pulling harder coming out of  the corners. I think it would be better to keep all engine the same displacement so people have nothing to  complain about.
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:34 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

IMO - if the sky raiders with a .46 are lapping a "properly set up, and reasonably flown" LA racer with a TT .40, THEN you are in all likleyhood exceeding the "break out" speed required for the short course in the safety code (540-B).
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

i would agree also. I almost lap guys in my T-34 races. I am not saying i am a good pilot but i can hold a line on the turns, turn right on the pylons and i am not all over the place. yes the 11x6 may still be an advantage but who knows. i would just like to see more people racing all over the country as it just helps the sport and all of us. i would never race the "40" stuff because it seems most everyone is running a 46 in everything. 46 engines are everywhere as the "40" isnt.

not to open another can of worms but i have been thinking about allowing a 4 stroke to run also like a Saito 56/62 or the new OS 62 in a race. it might pull better int he corners but slower on the straight. this would get guys more excited about moving up to bronze or silver warbirds
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:03 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Gunfighter,

 re"> We have used a radar gun on a Sky Raider  with a .46, it was clocked between 85-90 mph with O.S 46 AX  in a level flight not on the course. The only reason we run the .46's is the elevation is 3500 ft so we tend to go with the bigger engines for our planes. Now correct me if im wrong but isn't the speed limit for the club-40 100 mph.
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:24 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Yep...100 MPH average.
We put a radar gun on about 12 - 15 'Raiders and LA racers (w/ TT pro and GMS .40) to gather data for the 540-B sheet. Straight line speeds (for racers that were competitive in our group) were 98 - 102 MPH. That is where the 100 MPH average came from.

The second reason we all agreed to stay with the .40 is that it could be transferred to a viper / predator and run in 424 class. 46's are not allowed there either. Club 40 was imagined as a "stepping stone" to the faster classes of pylon racing.

I don't mean to hijack the thread...just a little history.
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:33 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Before thinking about another engine,
does anyone remember "The engine of the month club?"
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Old 07-12-2012, 02:45 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Wow thats impressive for just a .40 sized engine on those planes.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:47 PM
  #61
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Hi Jim
What was the name of the hobby shop? It wasn't in Houston was it? I just purchased 2 new 40's from Tower and they check good.
Fred
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:04 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

No need to tell Ken.

However, if the committee members would like to dsiscuss this or any other matter, they know that we have our forum for doing that.

I have already posted my opinion on this issue. My opinion, not the committee chairman's opinion. The reason we are using .40s has not changed. If it does, we will be working on an answer. Remember, one of those reasons was possible path to AMA 424.

For now, do all you can and then some to make sure that any engine you buy for the BB class is a .40. If you find after buying it that it is not, return it.
Of courwse, if you cannot return it, you might be comforted by the distributer's rep that you will have a really fine sport engine. He/she was hired based on their expertise in something. It just was not racing.

Ken Erickson

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Old 07-12-2012, 06:40 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Chuck remembers how we got the "average speed". The AMA technical officials' version of it is not the same as ours was.

Still, that does not matter in the end. We have a good class. We have good people working to promote it. We have good people flying it. TT is still making .40's, as far as we know. AMA 424 is still based on this engine.

If some people want a .46 class, so be it. If the Club 40 committee votes a change on our forum, so be it.

You read what Tim Batt and Bob Petrinec posted. I have about 25 people here in Indiana with .40s or the bushing, introductory class. Not wanting a change now, unless it absolutely has to be ( If no .40s available).

Besides, you do not have to have the "best" engine to have fun with Club 40!!!!!

Ken Erickson
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:05 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Ok so screw TT and Tower Hobby, (hate them anyway),, let's pick a different engine.
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:21 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: skull1971

Ok so screw TT and Tower Hobby, (hate them anyway),, let's pick a different engine.
Skully anyone can use any sport 40 engine that cost less than $100. Go get one and race, and if you win we will start buying the engine you used to beat us. It’s not that easy to find another sport 40 engine that will keep up with a TT. Other than a few old GMS’s there are just too many TT 40’s being used in Club 40.
Bob
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:32 AM
  #66
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Well, until we know for sure if this is just sloppy work at the factory, or some great plan to phase out the .40 Pro, Oh well, all that has been said before.

Here is the Club 40 section of the National Rules on engines:

Advanced Class Engines:
Recommended: Thunder Tiger Pro .40 BB ABC w/Muffler
Acceptable Alternatives: SuperTigre GS-40, GMS .40 ABC BB, Evolution .40NT and OS .40 BB sport engines or any clones/copies of the listed engines.

or any clones/copies of the listed engines

Still, most believe the TT .40 Pro is the one to have. They are still available. Everyone needs to do due diligence to see that the mutant engines do not get into our environment.

Or, if you really want the TT engines to be banned, tell your Club 40 committee members, who represent your circuits, to vote that way. If no, tell them not to.

Ken Erickson
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:09 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I went by Harbor Freight yesterday afternoon to take a look at the Digital Dial Indicator and determined that it would be difficult to use unless you are capable of making a base mount for it. The body of the indicator has a mounting lug on the back and can't be used as is.

The $14,99 digital caliper will work for both the bore and stroke measurement. I'll try and shoot some pictures this weekend to show everyone what I am talking about.

EVERYONE heading to TTown should check that the head bolts can be safely removed for inspection. I reccomend applying anti seize compound to the threads of the head bolts or at least a drop of oil to help keep the screws from sticking to the crankcase. The removal of the head for inspection should be left to the owner of the engine, but must be done in front of the person doing tech inspection.

Inspection is the key to solving this issue.
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:59 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I am the lonely .40 LA Racer that is flown in Amarillo and I did not get lapped at all in the only race I flew. The 3 lapped person was another flyer a couple of years ago who was flying an OS.40LA sleeve engine and he did get lapped. There isn't any difference in the outcome of the races between the .40 and .46 except the ability of the pilot. That's why I wanted a race this spring with both displacements allowed during a race but at the end of the day the winners would be separated by displacement.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:18 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Tbatt
/>Inspection is the key to solving this issue.
DING!!!!!

Both before and after the races!!!

There are more TT Pro 40's being used for racing than any other sport engine on the market. If you buy a new engine, check it! If it does not meet the spec's return it before you run it. Tell the LHS what the problem is and get another one. I have just spoke to the 2 largest shops in NC and both owners said they would be happy to exchange any motor(before I run them). One even said I could tear it down in front of him and measure all I want.

Trey Witte
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:04 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: twitte1

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Tbatt
/>Inspection is the key to solving this issue.
DING!!!!!

Both before and after the races!!!

There are more TT Pro 40's being used for racing than any other sport engine on the market. If you buy a new engine, check it! If it does not meet the spec's return it before you run it. Tell the LHS what the problem is and get another one. I have just spoke to the 2 largest shops in NC and both owners said they would be happy to exchange any motor(before I run them). One even said I could tear it down in front of him and measure all I want.

Trey Witte
Great!! so now this is a closed issue. I'd rather go back to how Texas is going to Alabama, and gonna win everything in site.
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:08 AM
  #71
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?



I now have in my possession a TT 40 Pro that is a 46. Another racer called me this morning who had not heard about the debate. He checked his engines and sure enough his newest engine was a 46. He brought it over and we disassembled it and check it against the specs and another older TT 40 pro. I traded him one of my 40s so he would have one to race tomorrow.

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Old 07-13-2012, 01:01 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I wonder how long these 40/46 Engines been circulating, last year, probably the year before, some of us may recall the rumour going around that some guys were putting 46 size parts in 40 size TT Pro Engines; when in fact that wasn't the case, that maybe some guys unknowingly had these oversized 40's and didn't know it; but others made the discovery because of the obvious gap between the head and the case and proclaimed that engines were being modified with 46 size parts to cheat!
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: dasintex

I wonder how long these 40/46 Engines been circulating, last year, probably the year before, some of us may recall the rumour going around that some guys were putting 46 size parts in 40 size TT Pro Engines; when in fact that wasn't the case, that maybe some guys unknowingly had these oversized 40's and didn't know it; but others made the discovery because of the obvious gap between the head and the case and proclaimed that engines were being modified with 46 size parts to cheat!
Umm, no.
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:13 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: skull1971


Quote:
ORIGINAL: dasintex

I wonder how long these 40/46 Engines been circulating, last year, probably the year before, some of us may recall the rumour going around that some guys were putting 46 size parts in 40 size TT Pro Engines; when in fact that wasn't the case, that maybe some guys unknowingly had these oversized 40's and didn't know it; but others made the discovery because of the obvious gap between the head and the case and proclaimed that engines were being modified with 46 size parts to cheat!
Umm, no.
I wasn't sure, just a thought!
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:47 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: dasintex


Quote:
ORIGINAL: skull1971


Quote:
ORIGINAL: dasintex

I wonder how long these 40/46 Engines been circulating, last year, probably the year before, some of us may recall the rumour going around that some guys were putting 46 size parts in 40 size TT Pro Engines; when in fact that wasn't the case, that maybe some guys unknowingly had these oversized 40's and didn't know it; but others made the discovery because of the obvious gap between the head and the case and proclaimed that engines were being modified with 46 size parts to cheat!
Umm, no.
I wasn't sure, just a thought!
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