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Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

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Old 11-04-2012, 09:09 AM
  #101
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Sorry to hear about that Chris, I'd be finding some tail feathers at Tower to chew on!! Seems we didn't have this problem till Tower bought all the rights to the TT line a couple years ago. Look what they did to Goldberg and Lainer.

For the record, with your honest and heartfelt confession above, I'd welcome you to race in Texas with us anytime!!!!
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:07 PM
  #102
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ACKopter

Another unsuspecting victim here and I can tell you this, it is painful in more ways than one. My engine was purchased from Tower Hobbies late last year and placed in a brand new airframe for the upcoming 2012 season. At the 9th round (of 10) yesterday waiting for the morning fog to break there was discussion on the possibility of a .46 in the .40 case straight from the factory and as you guessed it, my engine has the larger head to cylinder gap. We could not confirm at the field whether or not it was indeed a .46 but I withdrew myself from the days event anyway. This morning I was able to measure the engine and it does have both the bore and stroke dimensions of the .46
This creates a few serious issues for me. First off, I have competed all year with this plane and with 2 rounds left in the season I hold second in overall points. Yesterday's withdrawl from competition will probably put me farther down the list but as it stands now ALL my points will most likely be removed (and in all fairness should) as I have competed with a illegal engine for the entire season. Secondly and by far the most serious, my character has been called into question. This is something I hold very dear to myself and pride myself on is my values. For some that do not know me well enough I'm sure I will be labeled a "cheater".
It had been mentioned earlier in this thread that it is the responsibility of the competitor to verify that the engine they use is correct and legal. To this I say B.S.!!!!!! If I cannot have faith in a OEM supplied engine from a reputable dealer then why even bother, had I been aware the possibility of this scenario then indeed I would have checked my engine (as many of you did) but that was not the case. I know you can swap components but did not know these were being passed on from the factory untill yesterday.
I will make the appropriate contacts this coming week if only to bring more awareness to the manufacturer as I'm not very concerned with a replacement at this time.

Thanks for hearing me out.
Chris Kortessis #82, Fl Club40 Pylon
I have to chime in here.

First and foremost since it was me who pointed out that an engine on a plane that he and I were standing next to was likely a .46 (I had no idea it was evenchris's plane at first, I thought it was just a random plane on a table where we stopped to talk) and when we checked the head gap and it was indeed a .46, the look on Chris's face told a story or moral value that all of us should be so lucky to be around. Chris looked sick, he looked like he saw a ghost. Never once did I think he intentionally used the .46. His facial expression was very clear that he was not "in" on it.

Chris, as I told you onSaturday I do not think for 1 second your character is being questioned here. That I promise you.

And secondly, what Chris did by putting his plane away and withdrawing from the race was a class act thing to do. I told him numerous times I felt it was unneccesary, but what he did was absolutely the most honest thing anyone could do. Chris, I wore you out telling you this oinSaturday, but you are a stand up guy in my book.

If you need an engine for next weeks race (I cannot make the last race due to a scheduling conflict) I will pull my .TT 40 out and ship it to you if you'd like to use it. Race it and I'll pay postage to ship it back when you are done with it.

You are a stand up guy Chris and I am so sorry I pointed out that engine to you. I feel horrible, I truly do. But acting the way you did about it was an outstanding gesture of what a honest guy you are. And sticking aorund to help score & judge after that was an act of sportmanship that I haven't seen in a long, long, long time.

If you want to use one of my TT.40s, PMme or call me, I'll ship it overnight tomorrow for you.

John Dasch
HAM RC Club
#92 Fl Club40 Pylon

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Old 11-04-2012, 05:11 PM
  #103
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Oh my, thank you all for your responses and especially you John, your comments here mean a great deal to me and thankyou also for the very generous offer on the engine, I have sent you a PM regarding this.

As a quick follow up. I researched my purchase history @ Tower and the engine was purchased Dec 5 of 2011, not sure what will be said of my situation given the period of time it took to notice the issue but I will post updated information here as it becomes available.

Thank you all,
Chris
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:28 PM
  #104
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

So Chris,

Was your motor faster than the other racers, to the point where your were winning heats that you shouldn't have?

Kurt
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:04 AM
  #105
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Bozarth,
Good question. The answer is both yes and no. My plane is faster than most of the others but I believe in fairness so is my ST.40 powered back-up plane. On the other hand, the TT.40/46 is competitive with the fastest 4 or so planes at any given event but in no way clearly faster.

I will say that when I first put the plane together and did my break-in testing flights I was very pleased with its performance and felt I would have an edge against the competition. At the first round I did very well and would say I was evenly matched with the fastest planes there for the day. It seemed everyone else had found more speed in the off season as well. As the season wore on there were times that I felt I was at a noticable dissadvantage, I would have to attribute this to my newness to pylon racing and the RC hobby in general. All in all I would say that I never felt I had an advantage that would make me suspect an abnormally fast engine but did feel I got a "good one" straight from the factory.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:39 AM
  #106
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I sent a note about the situation to Hobbico yesterday morning. They want to have a look at the engine but made no mention of awareness of a possible production issue on their part. I'll get the engine sent off today and then wait it out to see how they respond.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:11 AM
  #107
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I had a phone conversation with Hobbico's tech support this morning and it revealed some interesting information. By reading the thread here one would assume the 40/46 mismatch to be a somewhat common event. According to the tech rep I spoke with this is not the case at all. He had only heard of one such other complaint (several months ago) and that person was not cooperative in returning the engine for inspection and thus Hobbico had not really seen any of these engines. I'm not sure if this was only the rep I spoke to personal experience or that of Hobbico as a whole, regardless, this situation is not likely as widespread as I originally thought.
I will update here regardless as new information is presented to me.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:51 AM
  #108
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

We have had at least one .46 in a .40 case up here in NEPRO that came directly from Great Planes

Here is an excerpt from the August NMPRA newsletter.......Hobbico should know about this by now:

Another topic we discussed also
has to do with 424 class engines. It
appears that there have been a few
Thunder Tiger .40 engines bought
for use in 424 class and Club 40
class racing that have been found
to actually be .46 displacement
engines. Apparently, the engine
case has “40” under the exhaust,
and the box said that the engines
were .40’s, but they apparently
had cranks, cylinders, pistons and
heads from .46 Thunder Tiger
engines installed. It is not known
how many engines have been found
in this configuration, but it we have
heard about a “few” so far.
I have been in touch with some
contacts I have at Hobbico, the
current importer of Thunder
Tiger engines and other products.
Several engines from their
inventory of Thunder Tiger 0.40’s
were inspected and found to be
the correct .40 cu.in. displacement.
The difference between a Thunder
Tiger .40 and .46 is approximately
1mm of stroke and approximately
0.9mm of bore, both larger in the
.46. The stroke of the .40 is 19mm
and the stroke of the .46 is 20mm.
It is not known at this point how
the apparent mix-up happened
or how many engines may have
been shipped in the incorrect
configuration. If racers believe
they have or are unsure if they
have received a Thunder Tiger
PRO .40 that actually has .46
internal parts, please contact
HOBBICO TECHNICAL SUPPORT
at: productsupport@hobbico.com
or phone 217-398-8970.
It is fairly easy to measure the
engines with a depth micrometer
and/or a dial caliper. If you do not
feel that you have the capability or
equipment to inspect your engine,
contact the racers in your area
to obtain some help measuring
the bore and stroke of your
engine. If you don’t have access
to anyone who can help you with
the inspection, contact HOBBICO
TECHNICAL SUPPORT at the email or phone number above for
assistance.
Now, with this knowledge, it is the
responsibility of all racers to ensure
that the engine(s) they have is
(are) the correct displacement.
Just because it appears that
a few engines may have been
shipped from the factory in this
configuration, it does NOT mean
it is legal to compete in AMA 424
racing with an engine that displaces
.46 cu.in. If you are caught with
one of these engines during an
inspection at a contest, you will be
disqualified, whether you knew it
was a .46 or not. It is the pilot’s
responsibility to get the engines
inspected BEFORE the start of
competition.
We also need all Contest Directors
where Thunder Tiger .40 engines
are being used to plan to do
inspections at their contests for
the foreseeable future. Please
be prepared to inspect at least
the engines from the planes of
the trophy positions and fast time
and also be prepared to inspect
engines for racers who cannot
measure their engine themselves.
This action should also be planned
by the Club 40 folks at their races
as well.
It is regretful that we appear to
have this complication for the 424
and Club 40 racers, but it does
not appear to be widespread like
a full shipment of engines from
the manufacturer, based on the
quantity we are aware of and the
fact that the engines inspected
from Hobbico’s inventory were
found to be correct. We just have
to deal with it going forward.
AMA class 424 racing (and other
classes as well) have benefited
from the high quality, consistency,
and relatively low price of the
Thunder Tiger .40 engines for
many years, back to at least the
mid-1990’s. We do need to thank
them for continuing to make a good
product that we can utilize in 424
level racing



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Old 11-07-2012, 12:56 PM
  #109
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

And I would think Hobbico should be aware of this by now and was a little surprised to find the tech I was dealing with knew little of the problem. As I said above, I'm unsure if the tech was speaking on his own behalf or that of Hobbico in regards to the amount of incorrect engines that have been discovered. It would seem however this discrepancy is far and few in between, thank goodness.

This does not really pertain to the engine issue but I received word yesterday that the race committee has reviewed my situation and will allow my year to date points to remain intact. On one hand I'm pleased with the decision but feel on the other hand that I did not earn the points fair and square. One more race left and I only hope to do well with my ST.40 powered back-up plane, at least that way it will show I'm capable of a good finish without an unfair advantage.
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Old 11-07-2012, 01:28 PM
  #110
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I promise there is no advantage to having a .46 over a .40.  At our last race we had 12 planes 11 had .46's and 1 had a .40. The .40 won every time against the .46, even when the .46 had at least a extra 500-800 rpm on the same prop. There was no obvious advantage in speed or performance. So whether you had a .40 or a .46 I would say you EARNED the points flying a tighter course.
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Old 11-07-2012, 04:49 PM
  #111
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: skooterII

I promise there is no advantage to having a .46 over a .40.
I completely disagree. I flew against an illegal .46 with my perfectly legal .40 in testing, on purpose. Not only is the performance difference noticable on the stop watch, it was CLEARLY noticable from average spectators / onlookers. The Tachometer also substantiates this. When you fly two similar skilled pilots on .40s, it's a race of skill and ability. Put a .46 in there and you can make mistakes, pull the corners super tight and the .46 keeps the rpm right up there and hardly pulls down. Wrap the .40 powered plane around the pylon and the rpm drop does not require a tuned ear to hear and the fact the airplane looks as if someone put the spoilers out is pretty evident.

And Chris, Hobbico is merely covering their collective butts by saying they haven't heard of this problem. Imagine if they said, "Oh yeah, there are many of them out there like that". The returns would be a huge problem. They are in disaster control mode. They know, believe me... they know. This isn't isolated to us in FL. The problem is on a larger scale, but you have to remember, a guy has to know what he is looking at. Many folks cannot tell the physical difference between them as some of us can from 15 feet away.



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Old 11-07-2012, 05:09 PM
  #112
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Giant_Scale_Gasser

... Many folks cannot tell the physical difference between them as some of us can from 15 feet away.

For those of us not in the know, what should we look for from 15 feet away?

Kurt
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:40 PM
  #113
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Here are some of the facts we know: The engine box says they are "ABC" but we know they are "ABN".
The engines were origionally manufactured in Taiwan, but are now made in China. That Hobbico bought Thunder Tiger. Does anyone know if production moved from Taiwan to China, as a result of the purchase of Thunder Tiger by Hobbico?
It was posted earlier in this thread that we saw two hybrid engines at the Hico, TX race this summer.If memory serves me correctly, I believe a third engine was reported in Texas. Now one has surfaced in Florida, and some have shown up at AMA 424 races. So maybe we have 6 or so confirmed sightings.
It was also posted that there is a larger gap between the crankcase, and the head on the .46's. The common
inspection is the nickel test. A nickel will not go in the gap between the case and the head of a .40, but will go in the gap of a .46. Another check is to remove the muffler, and look in the exhaust. The .46 cylinders are thinner than the .40 cylinders, and the difference is easy to see if you compare a .46 to a .40 side by side.
Here is the best explanation for what happened. A production run of say 500 engines was planned. Before the run was completed they ran out of some parts, probably pistons and liners. Someone decided to finish out the "order" with .46 parts, thinking that no one would care! That may be the Chinese mentality, that it was more important to complete the order, that to comply with ISO 9001 protocol. If you can't get any satisfaction from Hobbico, ask them if they would like you to take your complaint to ISO? good luck Greg
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:58 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

The larger case/head gap clearance is what gave my plane away. Once you see it you will actually be able to easily spot one even from quite a distance.
I still have the original box in which my engine came in. It does not designate either ABN or ABC type construction, it does however say "Made in China". It also has "ISO 90001 CERTIFICATED" printed on the box with a nifty little sticker under the ISO rating that reads"THE ONLY ENGINE ALLOWED IN THE CLUB40 RACING" in bold print. I really got a kick out of the sticker given the circumstances.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:54 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I may have mis-spoken in my previous post. I don't know that Hobbico bought Thunder Tiger. It may be that
they are just the sole US importer. Greg
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:48 AM
  #116
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Bozarth

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Giant_Scale_Gasser

... Many folks cannot tell the physical difference between them as some of us can from 15 feet away.

For those of us not in the know, what should we look for from 15 feet away?

Kurt
The difference is between the head & top fin of the engine block. If you can fit a quarter between the head & block, it's a .46. I have included photos to show the difference. In person the gap is painfully obvious.



This is the .40. Notice the fins are even all the way up.


This is the .46. Look at the head to block gap. Very, very easy to spot.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:40 AM
  #117
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Back when we were sending e-mails to Mr. Lin, I did explain that Club 40 National Rules have always allowed other engines and that it was the AMA 424 Class National Rules which stipulated that the TT .40 Pro was the only engine allowed. Never did get a response to that one.

I also pointed out that the TT 40 Pro was acknowledged by, almost, all to be the hottest sport 40 engine. They prettty much have this class to themselves.If they discontinue this engine, they will be in competition with all the other .46es.

My supposition would be the same as Greg Doe's, that this happened at the end of a run and they thought no one would care. At least they know better now.

Let's hope they continue to make this engine.

Ken
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:31 AM
  #118
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Thanks for the photos.

Kurt
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:49 AM
  #119
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I'm just getting started in club 40 and found this thread. Was deliberating on STor TT engines. After reading through entire post, I was wondering...
Wouldn't a .46 consume a higher rate/ volume of fuel? If so then couldn't we go back to using fuel bulbs or something to contain a premeasured amount? I had an old K&B 40 I gave away because I couldn't find a muffler for it. Would it have been legal if I did?

John
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:31 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

John,

As your address shows that you live in Florida, I suggest you follow this link: [link=http://floridaclub40pylonracing.com]http://floridaclub40pylonracing.com[/link]. Then you will have a good idea of whether your engine would be allowed. You still might contact the person(s) listed as the Director of the race(s) and ask if they would let you run it. My guess would be, "Unlikely".

As for the National Rules, we would need a lot more info about your engine. We do specify that an engine have an original, factory-supplied sport muffler.

Still, the local rules are what anyone needs to follow. Just like the AMA racing rules, not everyone uses the exact National Rules. I am very appreciative of those who do. How else can it be known if the rules are right?

Ken Erickson
RCPRO Club 40 Committee Chairman

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Old 11-09-2012, 11:44 AM
  #121
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Hi John,
I cant say about the use of premeasured amounts of fuel as it would have to be brought before the rules commitee, I can however tell you that your old K&B 40 is NOT allowed for use in Florida club40. Here is a link to the FL club40 rules for your reference,
http://floridaclub40pylonracing.com/club40rules.htm A quick look around the site should answer most of your questions, if not our final race of the season is this coming Saturday in Dunnellon at Tri-County R/C. Racing usually starts around 9. Please come over and check things out if you have the time. Here is a link to the host club site for information and its not too far from you. http://tricountyrcclub.homestead.com/
It would be great if you can make it!! Look me up if you do, I'll be flying a yellow #82 plane and my name is Chris.
Hope to see you there.

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Old 11-09-2012, 01:30 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

In So Cal we allow any sport .40 in stock form. I have seen K&B, OS, GMS, Magnum, Fox, Super Tigre, Evolution & Thunder Tiger. The Thunder Tigers seem to have a slight advantage so it has not been an issue at all and it has helped attract a few guys who had a .40 sitting around that they could use to get them started. Most guys, if they stick with it, will eventually upgrade to the TT's or Evolutions.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:48 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

You should come join us in Colorado. If we have a new racer show up to race for the first time, we don't care what engine he has. Now if he cleans everybody's clock, next time might be a different story. But I doubt he will in his first race.

Just like Still4given's comments above.

Kurt
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:08 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Bozarth

You should come join us in Colorado. If we have a new racer show up to race for the first time, we don't care what engine he has. Now if he cleans everybody's clock, next time might be a different story. But I doubt he will in his first race.

Just like Still4given's comments above.

Kurt
You never know.... I know a guy who won (a heat and the Gold) his first time out.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:15 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Giant_Scale_Gasser


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Bozarth

You should come join us in Colorado. If we have a new racer show up to race for the first time, we don't care what engine he has. Now if he cleans everybody's clock, next time might be a different story. But I doubt he will in his first race.

Just like Still4given's comments above.

Kurt
You never know.... I know a guy who won (a heat and the Gold) his first time out. [img][/img]
PERFECT way to hook a new racer! Works every time.

Kurt
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