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Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

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Old 07-09-2012, 02:17 PM
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Default Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

We had an engine at a race recently that the pilot stated he had recently bought new from a lhs that said it was a 40, but checked out to be a 46. We did not question what the pilot claimed as he is well know and liked,but thought maybe someone had bought it and messed with it and then returned it to the hobby shop.

Today I became aware that our local hobby shop also had a new engine that appeared to be a 46 rather than a 40. Note this was not the same hobby shop that sold the first engine.

I went to the hobby shop and was allowed to examine the engine in question. We compared it to a 40 that I had and a used 46 that the shop owner had. Measuring the stroke through the glow plug hole the new "40" with a digital caliper it measured the same as the used 46 and 1mm longer than my 40.

The first tip off was a quarter would fit between the cylinder head and the crank case onthe 40 it will not.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

So Jim are you going to contact Great Planes/Hobbico/Tower and ask them what is going on?
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:36 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

The LHS owner said his rep is supposed to be there tomorrow, and he will let me know what they have to say about it.

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Old 07-10-2012, 06:01 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

If engines are coming from the factory with the wrong parts in them, then it must be up to the purchaser to verify that it is a 40 and not a 43 or a 46. The pilot buying an errant engine is not intending to cheat but will be disqualified all the same because of using an illegal engine.

Because of this situation I feel it necessary to check all winning engines at every RCPRO Club 40 event to verify the engine displacement. I think this should include all engine in the A-MAIN race. This is easy to do, can be done in a few minutes and there are many people at our events with the knowledge and expertise to open an engine for a look see. (Me for one).

If a 46 crankshaft is installed into a 40 engine and one or two extra head shims are added to provide clearance for the piston, you have a long stroke 43. And I already know for a fact that all the internal parts of a 46 will fit nicely in a 40 case.

I hope everyone interested in racing RCPRO Club 40 reads this thread and checks their engines. The booklet that comes with the engine gives the specifications for all their engines. I just rechecked my three engines to make sure they are 40’s, and they are, but I will be more than happy to have my engine inspected at any race I attend, (I will be in the A-MAIN)
Bob
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:13 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Bob,

We will check all engines in the A Main Race @ T Town, and re check the weight after the race !!

Dave...
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:59 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Bob & Dave,

Why would you only check the engines in the A Main? Wouldn't it be proper to check ALL engines during 'Tech Inspection' before the race AND at the end after the Mains? This covers the ones who bring illegal planes AND the ones who make changes during the day.

Cheaters don't always win. They try to negate dumb thumbs with illegal modification. Doesn't always work. BUT, they need to be weeded out at the start. Don't let them even participate at all!!!

Trey
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:08 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Trey,
Who knows if they will make the A MAIN or not ?? Would you take a chance being illegal and make it into the A main race??
Also time will be a factor in our race due to the amount of contestants !!

Dave..
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:20 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Dave,

I understand all the nuances and time concerns with running a race. I just think that cheaters do not need to be allowed to participate at all. Catch them and send them away early and the rest of us can have our fun. I volunteer at every race I go to, to do whatever is needed. If I can help in any way, sign me up!!

I will be first in line at tech inspection. They can inspect/teardown whatever they want. That is the only way. I work hard to know the rules at the race venues I attend.

Can wait to race in Aug!!!

Trey
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:59 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Trey ,
I know there are a lot of people that feel the same way you do !! Club-40 needs people like you to help keep this a clean sport !!
I for one don't think there are many cheaters as some believe there are.. Thats why we do tech inspections !! As for your help !! You are signed up !!!!

Dave...
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:40 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Hay guys lets back-up; this latest issue has nothing to do with cheating. Cheating is a deliberate attempt to violate the rules. What we are dealing with now is a problem caused not by the contestant but by someone else. The engines in question are being sold as 40’s in local hobby shops. It says 40 on the box and on the side of the case, but when measured, it is not a 40 size engine but either a 43 or a 46 depending on what parts were substituted. So, let’s stop talking about cheaters and check our engines to make sure they are legal.

If you have an illegal engine and don’t know it, you are not cheating, BUT YOU WILL BE DISQUILIFIED.
Bob
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:44 PM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

I have talked to Tower / hobico today along with Max Blose the LHS owner. He talked to them first and their response was" there is so little difference between a 40 and a 46 it wont matter" They went on to say the difference in the stroke is only .0003. This is not true the difference is .0394 or 1 mm Plus the bore is also larger.

I called back and spoke to James, his take on it was that we are only talking about two engines and unless more show up they do not plan to do anything about it other than if the engines are returned to them they will replace them.

So hit your LHS and check if they have any new TT 40s in stock that looke like they might be 46s. It is easy to spot, if a quarter will fit between the case and the cylinder head it is likely a 46. There has been one report of an engine that had a wide gap, but was found to have two head shims in it

If you think it might be a 46 you can measure the stroke through the glow plug hole and compare it to a known 40.

Let me know what you find.

Ken Erikson is also looking into this.
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Old 07-11-2012, 03:56 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Here in Connecticut we had a NEPRO member this spring who purchased one of these .46 motors in a .40 case new from Omni Models. We were hoping it was an isolated event so decided to let it slide. Looks like it may be more of a widespread problem. As already mentioned, it should be relatively easy to police even if a bit of a nuisance. The major downside as I see it is that it allows an excuse for the guy that may decide to cheat by changing out the piston, sleeve, rod. In the end, it should be pretty easy to tell by speed and sound if someone has one of these motors
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Old 07-11-2012, 03:58 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

...
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:13 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

It may not be cheating when you unknowingly buy an Engine assuming it was a 40 only to find out that it is a 46; but whats stopping others who will now purposely make a 46 out of a 40 and take the chance that they won't get caught because a race didn't do a post race inspection/teardown, and in the event they are caught they can always claim that this is the way they had bought it.

End result, it seems that teardowns are going to have to be mandatory at all races.
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:40 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

A tear down only takes 30 seconds, if the pilot takes the head bolts and glow plug out. Measure the stroke thru the glow plug hole, and then measure the inside of the sleeve. Really an easy way to prevent cheating in my opinion.

Trey will keep em honest!!
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:01 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

Guy's it seems we do have a problem as I have two NIB TT-40s . One has a longer stroke and you can see the gap between the head and block. take a look !!!

Dave...
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:06 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

OK Dave, disqualify yourself.  

If it isn't people trying to beat the system we have a manufacturer doing it.  I wonder how much longer the TT PRO 40 will be the engine of choice for C40 and AMA 424 with the lack of quality control or possibly the deliberate changing the engine to make life hard on us racers and get out of making the PRO 40 anymore as it probably isn't a big seller.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:10 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

take a look at the boxs as one is newer than the other !! The 46 is the last one I purchased and you can tell by the color of the box !!!
The part that gripes me is I have a hundred dollar motor that I can not use !! The only reason I bought it was to race !!
Dave..
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:23 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

You know when Tower/Hobbico/Great Plane Hobbies bought out Thunder Tiger they tried to bump the street price of the PRO 40 up to $140/ea.  There was such a real out pouring of emails and phone calls from the Pylon Racing Community that they backed off and only raised the price $10/ea.  I wonder if the person that made the decision to try a jump the price is now trying to mess with the Pylon Racing Community with the occasional up displacement motors.  

Hhhmmmmm!!  IMWTK!!

If that is what is happening we need to find another motor and use it.  That will be expensive and it is really irritating that they TT is possibly doing this.  How can it go from well over a decade of consistency to now where you can't depend on TT to send the correct engine.  I think this is deliberate and is a plan by TT management for some reason that I am not clear on other than messing with the pylon racing community to only produce the PRO .46 engine only.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:46 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?



Just another thougt about this, it could be that TT is trying to unload parts. The typical modeler would be thrilled to get a 46 for a 40 price. They aren't going to complain that they got more power for less money. We as racers are more aware of this problem simply because we care and watch what is going on.

This would be an easy way for TT to dump a bunch of in stock parts to reduce inventory and hardly anyone would complain, except for us.

Tower Hobbies SHOULD exchange any engine that was sold as a 40 but is actually a 43 or 46.

My two cents....

Tim

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Old 07-11-2012, 07:55 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?



Dang it! I too have a NIB motor that I had better check.

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Old 07-11-2012, 08:07 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Tbatt



Dang it! I too have a NIB motor that I had better check.

Me to!! I have two of them. Drat!!!
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:57 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

The first picture is of my two new No. 9140 TT PRO 40 engines. The one on the left has .040" clearance between the head and the case. The one on the right has .050" clearance.The second pic is an old PRO 40 motor and it has .070" clearance between the head and the case.The third pic is of my PRO .46 and it has .080" clearance.I am going down to check the other four PRO 40 engines I have mounted in planes. two 424 and two C40 and will post the data.This is the data on the Tower Hobbys page for the PRO 40Displacement: .398 cu in (6.52cc) Bore: .8228" (20.9mm) Stroke: .7480" (19mm) Power Output: 1.22 HP @ 16,000 RPM Maximum RPM range: 2,000 - 17,000 Practical RPM range: 2,500 - 14,000 Weight (w/muffler): 17.19oz (487g) Crankshaft thread size: 1/4-28 Crankcase width (for engine mount): 1.36" Overall height: 3.4" (87mm) Overall width (w/mount flanges): 1.97" (50mm) Overall length (backplate to front of drive washer): 3.39" (86mm)
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:11 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

There is, at present, no need to panic. We now know there is a problem for us caused, probably, at the factory. The distributor/importer seems not to recognize this as a problem.

Check all your engines. Return any which are not usable for the reason purchased.

Help them to understand that this is a problem.

Being called away. No time for a smooth sales pitch for this course of action.

Ken Erickson
Chairman, RCPRO Club 40 Rules Committee
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:29 AM
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Default RE: Are the new Thunder Tiger 40s actually 46s?

The space between the case and head can vary due to the head shim gasket, but head shim thickness will not alter the stroke.

I encourage everyone to check their engines and go to LHS's and inspect new engines they may have for sale. Pleas report any 40s found to be 46s to Hobico 217-398-8970

If you find one that will not pass the quarter test check the stroke with a caliper through the glow plug hole.

At least one engine was found that did not pass the quarter test, but was found to have two head shims in it.
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