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  1. #1

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    Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    I recently purchased a couple of Skyraider II airplanes (Thanks Don!) with the intent of hitting the last couple of races here in FL to tune up for next year.
    I had a couple of questions for you guys.

    The rules are pretty vague about the servos and more importantly, the use of dual aileron servos. I hear some guys do use two and some do not. Is it legal to modify the wing in order to mount independent servos?
    Also, can I use servos that only have 2 mounting screws?

    Also, where can a guy get some set-up tips, just some rule of thumb stuff. I am not looking for anyone to open their little black book, I just want to thoughts on control linkage and horns, maybe if you mix rudder & aileron, thrust angles that may help, etc?


  2. #2
    skull1971's Avatar
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    I believe it's servo's have to have 4 hold down screws, and I've been hearing about the use dual servo's in the Skyraider wings, I am dead set against that! The manual shows a single servo in the wing, that's it.

    Seems the RCPRO site isn't working out here in the Gulf, do a search for the rules, they are pretty clear.
    ERIC DESARDI, Revver Bro. 159, NMPRA 59i, III%
    Moe's Cycle Service, New Creations-RC

  3. #3
    vicman's Avatar
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    A guy who used to live on this site and now is rarely here due to the "upgrade".
    Most likely fading away till the My Forums is fixed. Too bad.

  4. #4

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    There is no need for the dual servo's. Its more weight, drag and uses up more of your battery. They fly great right out of the box set up per instructions. Only thing it might be good for is to help out on the aileron flutter, but then again so does tape.

  5. #5

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up


    ORIGINAL: skull1971

    I believe it's servo's have to have 4 hold down screws, and I've been hearing about the use dual servo's in the Skyraider wings, I am dead set against that! The manual shows a single servo in the wing, that's it.

    Seems the RCPRO site isn't working out here in the Gulf, do a search for the rules, they are pretty clear.
    The RCPRO rules do allow dual servos, but they require 4 screw servos, there is no advantage in that. Two metal gear mini servos can provide a considerably safer aileron set-up, in my opinion. But the rules are the rules right!


  6. #6
    skull1971's Avatar
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    Safer, maybe, BUT what some have been doing is programing in a mix where the flaps come down when elevator is pulled, causing the plane to turn faster. That, IMO, is not in the spirit of Club 40 racing and starts us down the path of "Spend to win."
    ERIC DESARDI, Revver Bro. 159, NMPRA 59i, III%
    Moe's Cycle Service, New Creations-RC

  7. #7
    Ken Erickson's Avatar
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    Well, there are the National Rules. They exist. BUT, if you are going to race in Florida, you need to check on the Florida Rules.

    We would appreciate it if everyone used the National Rules. That would make it much easier for racers to travel to different areas and have instant FUN.

    Hwever, there have been variations. I don't get too upset by that, as the same situation exists in the AMA/NMPRA rules.

    Ken Erickson
    RCPRO National Club 40 Committee Chairman

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    I have several of my SRMII with dual servos in the wing.  They are together in the center of the wing.  I just enlarge the servo opening a bit more and in they go.  I also have a Sanaloma Club Raider 40 that has the individual servos in the wing like the LA Racer.  RCPRO approved this wing and I will include a pic.  It doesn't make the plane any faster.  


    Barry...
    http://www.RCPRO.org

  9. #9
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up


    ORIGINAL: skull1971
    ...

    Seems the RCPRO site isn't working out here in the Gulf, do a search for the rules, they are pretty clear.
    The RCPRO site has not been down at all lately. You can get to the Club 40 section at [link]http://www.rcpro.org/content/rcpro/club_40/default.aspx[/link] or any time at www.Club40Racing.com

    ...
    I've been hearing about the use dual servo's in the Skyraider wings, I am dead set against that! The manual shows a single servo in the wing, that's it.
    ...
    Dual aileron servos have been in the rules since 2004. Before Airpark Elite started Mach 2 racing. Before Texas started Sky Raider racing.

    This thing of assembled per the instructions is something some people started a couple of years ago.

    Take a look at the original objectives HERE
    Don Stegall - www.RCCalculators.com - The everyday app for R/C Modelers
    www.RCPRO.org - www.facebook.com/RCPRO.org
    www.Club40Racing.com - www.facebook.com/Club40Racing
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  10. #10

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    G,S,G This thread has gotten bogged down on the subject of single or dual aileron servos. My preference is for the single servo. Since you asked for set up recommendations, I would suggest ripping out the the stock rudder and elevator push rods, and replacing them with traditional pushrods; wood dowels or carbon fiber. I
    know several folks who recommend digital servos, but I've been using Airtronics, Spectrum, and Hitec analog servos: just regular garden variety standard servos. I use the supplied control horns, but I do replace the clevises. Get rid of the supplied "universal" motor mount, and replace with a Kraft Hayes, or
    Dave Brown 40/45 mount. The wheels, and landing gear are just fine. I replace the tank with a Kraft Hayes 6oz. but the stock one is probably ok. Some kits are supplied with the steel hinges, and some kits have the live, dacron-mylar-dacron (DMD) hinges. A lot of people hate the steel hinges, but I've used them with out any issues. Now my biggest complaint is the stock Toughlon covering. It would take several pages for me to list all the reasons I dislike the stuff, and I will tolerate it on a new airplane. If I ever have major repairs I use a better quality covering; usually Monokote. In the past there have been people who ripped the covering off a brand new airplane, and recovered it. At one time there were uncovered kits at the same price as covered ones, and they all sold out. The early canopies were junk, so I have started making fiberglass replicas. Recently I have seen better quality vacume formed canopies. Good luck, Greg

  11. #11
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    When the plane turns tighter, the added lift creates more drag from the lowered "flaps"and we surely don't want that. I for one, hope everyone uses this feature.

    The only reason I could see this is for less play in the linkage and less flutter. Move the cg back and use a little more elevator.
    throttling back during a crash means you are a "quitter "
    "cutting suks"
    "everyone is crazy, some are just more obvious than others"

  12. #12
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    I think he meant to add "spoiler" (up aileron) with the up elevator to aide in the turns. The other benefit of dual ailerons would be the ability to us differential in your ailerons, so that they move more up than down to reduce drag. Both of those things will decrease drag and increase speed some. However, at club 40 or 424 speeds, you would never notice a real advantage by using either of them. The only true benefit would be an extra aileron servo in case one failed.
    Scott Smith
    NMPRA 86t - District 7 VP

  13. #13

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up


    ORIGINAL: GREG DOE

    G,S,G This thread has gotten bogged down on the subject of single or dual aileron servos. My preference is for the single servo. Since you asked for set up recommendations, I would suggest ripping out the the stock rudder and elevator push rods, and replacing them with traditional pushrods; wood dowels or carbon fiber. I
    know several folks who recommend digital servos, but I've been using Airtronics, Spectrum, and Hitec analog servos: just regular garden variety standard servos. I use the supplied control horns, but I do replace the clevises. Get rid of the supplied "universal" motor mount, and replace with a Kraft Hayes, or
    Dave Brown 40/45 mount. The wheels, and landing gear are just fine. I replace the tank with a Kraft Hayes 6oz. but the stock one is probably ok. Some kits are supplied with the steel hinges, and some kits have the live, dacron-mylar-dacron (DMD) hinges. A lot of people hate the steel hinges, but I've used them with out any issues. Now my biggest complaint is the stock Toughlon covering. It would take several pages for me to list all the reasons I dislike the stuff, and I will tolerate it on a new airplane. If I ever have major repairs I use a better quality covering; usually Monokote. In the past there have been people who ripped the covering off a brand new airplane, and recovered it. At one time there were uncovered kits at the same price as covered ones, and they all sold out. The early canopies were junk, so I have started making fiberglass replicas. Recently I have seen better quality vacume formed canopies. Good luck, Greg
    Excellent info. Thanks very much. I am a dealer for Hitec so everything in all my planes is currently HiTec. I am not familiar with DMD hinges, are those the CA type hinges?
    Thanks again for the info.


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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    Absolutely. DMD is the industry name for what we call CA hinges. Steve Helm's dad, Gail Helms introduced the hobby to Radio South "Hot Stuff" hinges almost 40 years ago. The material was developed as insulation for electrical purposes.

    I believe Don Stegal is responsible for getting World Models to switch from the steel hinges to CA hinges.
    Don't hesitate to ask for suggestions. Someone will likely answere any question you have. A lot of times we find different solutions for the same problem, so you can choose your medicine. Greg

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    Be carful if your using the hitec hs-485hb servo's, several people including my self have been having problems with them. A total of five servos between three different people in just a couple of months. I had three fail in less than 15 flights, 3 flights on one servo, not even one full flight on the next "both ruder" and then a few flights later the elevator servo went out, needles to say it killed the plane and then some. So just a heads up to be aware of the posable "problem" maybe we can save a few planes.

  16. #16

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    Skooter,
    thats interesting that you mention this because I too have had a couple HS-5485 servos poop out on me recently , one on a brand new plane at the Tuscaloosa race , and naturally it was on aileron and I just couldnt get the plane turned back with rudder in time to save it. Then at the next race on the Alabama schedule up in Harvest a month later, another 5485 servo failed on me on aileron, it too being brand new out of the box and the plane went down. I thought I was just jinxed but I Im glad to know it wasnt just me,...sorry about your planes btw.
    I posted on the Hitec forum here but got no reply, I then called and talked to Billy at the Hitec Service Center and I got the reply of " no, we havent heard of any problems out of these servos before" . I sent them in under warranty since I had just purchased a lot of 10 servos a few months ago, and the bad ones were from this lot. They replaced them with new servos and the service note just said the servo motor was defective. I got the news ones back last week actually. Humm.........there may just be a problem with these servos after all!! These servos are all I have ran on elevator, rudder and aileron for over 2 years on my Skyraiders and they were never a problem before now.
    Maybe Giant Scale Gasser could comment on any known issues since he says he is a Hitec dealer?
    Thanks for the heads up !!!
    John

    ps,.... you eat at the Tall Texan Steak house in Amarillo ? I stopped there way back in '87 to eat Cool place for sure!!!

  17. #17

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    Couple times nothing special


  18. #18
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    First comment... If separate aileron servos are the hot ticket the Q40 guys would be all over it... FWIW

    Hitec servos...I changed over to 225 about a year ago. I can't really say I'm too happy yet. Similar to my experience with the little ones, HS55 and HS81, the gears are pretty dang fragile. I have an order going right now for four gearsets each.[&:]
    A guy who used to live on this site and now is rarely here due to the "upgrade".
    Most likely fading away till the My Forums is fixed. Too bad.

  19. #19

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up


    ORIGINAL: vicman

    First comment... If separate aileron servos are the hot ticket the Q40 guys would be all over it... FWIW

    Hitec servos...I changed over to 225 about a year ago. I can't really say I'm too happy yet. Similar to my experience with the little ones, HS55 and HS81, the gears are pretty dang fragile. I have an order going right now for four gearsets each.[&:]
    For me personally, I wasn't considering dual aileron servos as an advantage, more of an insurance. I am an over builder. For example, I have more redundancy in the electronics on my 30cc gasser than some guys have in their 100cc planes. Anytime I can split a flying surface and use individual servos, I do.

    I can't even imagine the 55 working at all in this size plane, it is only rated at 18oz-in! The 81 is at least 41oz-in but it is a plastic gear / no bearing servo. I was considering using the 82MG, which at least is 47oz-in and has metal gears, but no bearings.

    If you go with the 225 (and I most likely will as well), at least go with the MG. It's only 1 gram heavier (26.93g for the 225BB and 27.94 for the 225MG) and it an all metal gear train. I think torque for the application is fine at 67oz-in @6.0v.

    Just my $0.02


  20. #20
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    Since the HS-225 / HS225MG are 4 screw servos, they are legal. I have used them on aileron on Club 40 planes a fair amount with no problem in dual servo configurations.

    I have used the JR SPORT MN48 servos more with great success. They get mixed reviews on the Horizon site.

    For a build thread on putting an LA Racer together, see LA Racer 40 Build. There is good information in there about things like tapping the engine mount instead of using through holes, attaching the stab, etc. We need Barry to do one on race prepping a solid color Sky Raider Mach II.
    Don Stegall - www.RCCalculators.com - The everyday app for R/C Modelers
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  21. #21
    DonStegall's Avatar
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up


    ORIGINAL: GREG DOE
    ...
    I believe Don Stegall is responsible for getting World Models to switch from the steel hinges to CA hinges.
    ...
    Thanks for the mention Greg.

    When I worked with AirBorne Models to bring the Sky Raider Mach II out in solid white and solid yellow to begin with, I convinced Fai to go with CA hinges and to only pre-slot the surfaces. The orange and red Mach II planes came later. The white and yellow LA Racers were done the same way. The solid colors have sold so well that AirBorne only recently added them to their web site. And that was at my request.

    The CA hinges allow stripping the planes and re-covering them much easier. Or adding trim covering. I consider the solid colors with the CA hinges to be one of the best things that I was involved in with Club 40, along with the airframe changes that have been made to make the planes more durable.
    Don Stegall - www.RCCalculators.com - The everyday app for R/C Modelers
    www.RCPRO.org - www.facebook.com/RCPRO.org
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  22. #22
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    Weight!!
    I too have used the small servo's and found I had to add a bunch of weight to the plane to meet the 4.5lbs. One of my planes took 7oz. to be up to weight, I found just using, say DS537's the weight is real close, plus it's a known, "Work horse" servo. The most I've ever added after that is 1 to 1.5 oz to the planes.

    Gather around kids it's time for more of Uncle Skully's opinions about things. (That no one agree's with)

    Ok 2 servos in the wing are for safety, right?,,,, WRONG!! you can put 2 in, in case one fails, you can still fly the plane. What are the chances that it will fail in the center position? VERY LOW. What are the chances that, at race speeds, you will be able to ID a problem, figure it out and correct for it, again VERY LOW. Now this one will get you revved up!! Using 1 servo in the SRM2 wing and it fails, in the center position, and you are able to figure it out and correct for it before a crash, what do you do? My answer is fly it on the rudder, (not race it), try to land it for repairs. IF you are NOT skilled enough to fly and land a plane with rudder and elev. ONLY, you don't need to be out there racing with us.
    ERIC DESARDI, Revver Bro. 159, NMPRA 59i, III%
    Moe's Cycle Service, New Creations-RC

  23. #23

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up

    GSG:
    It is generally accepted that the nylon 225 servo is better for racing applications
    than the metal gear servo. The metal ones seem to develop wear in the geartrain
    after a short time whereas the nylon geared ones do not. I probably have 30 225's
    and have yet to experience a failure in one of them.
    brad

  24. #24
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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up


    ORIGINAL: skull1971

    Weight!!
    I too have used the small servo's and found I had to add a bunch of weight to the plane to meet the 4.5lbs. One of my planes took 7oz. to be up to weight, I found just using, say DS537's the weight is real close, plus it's a known, ''Work horse'' servo. The most I've ever added after that is 1 to 1.5 oz to the planes.

    Gather around kids it's time for more of Uncle Skully's opinions about things. (That no one agree's with)

    Ok 2 servos in the wing are for safety, right?,,,, WRONG!! you can put 2 in, in case one fails, you can still fly the plane. What are the chances that it will fail in the center position? VERY LOW. What are the chances that, at race speeds, you will be able to ID a problem, figure it out and correct for it, again VERY LOW. Now this one will get you revved up!! Using 1 servo in the SRM2 wing and it fails, in the center position, and you are able to figure it out and correct for it before a crash, what do you do? My answer is fly it on the rudder, (not race it), try to land it for repairs. IF you are NOT skilled enough to fly and land a plane with rudder and elev. ONLY, you don't need to be out there racing with us.

    So that mean that you will be judging and not racing? [:@][:@]
    throttling back during a crash means you are a "quitter "
    "cutting suks"
    "everyone is crazy, some are just more obvious than others"

  25. #25

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    RE: Question About Club 40 rules and Skyraider II Set-up


    ORIGINAL: skull1971

    Gather around kids it's time for more of Uncle Skully's opinions about things. (That no one agree's with)

    Ok 2 servos in the wing are for safety, right?,,,, WRONG!! you can put 2 in, in case one fails, you can still fly the plane. What are the chances that it will fail in the center position? VERY LOW. What are the chances that, at race speeds, you will be able to ID a problem, figure it out and correct for it, again VERY LOW. Now this one will get you revved up!! Using 1 servo in the SRM2 wing and it fails, in the center position, and you are able to figure it out and correct for it before a crash, what do you do? My answer is fly it on the rudder, (not race it), try to land it for repairs. IF you are NOT skilled enough to fly and land a plane with rudder and elev. ONLY, you don't need to be out there racing with us.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, right or wrong. I can only make decisions based on my 30+ years of being in this hobby and my personal experiences. I prefer dual servos, I have some very expensive and very large airplanes. I am very comfortable with dual servos and feel while nothing makes your plane completely safe, or free from failures, but limiting your exposure to murphy has it's advantages.

    I didn't know that I had to check ride with anyone and perform the "my aileron servo is stuck and I must land with the rudder and elevator in order to be in the club" manuever. But I am quite sure I can handle it....









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