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The new LA Racer 40, glow and electric sport racing?

Old 11-18-2013, 08:35 AM
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DonStegall
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Default The new LA Racer 40, glow and electric sport racing?

The World Models made some changes to the LA racer 40. It now has an aluminum landing gear and wheel pants. It also has a battery hatch between the canopy and the firewall. The intent is obviously for electric power. Currently the battery hatch is only on the stock color schemes. AirBorne Models got more solid yellow and solid white. They have the landing gear and wheel pants, but the solids do not have the battery hatch in this run. Ken Erickson has some photos I can repost if I get his permission.

I had proposed Club Wingman using the Wingman II with the EF1 power system. These planes are just a little smaller than the Sky Raider Mach II. With the EF1 power system, they come in at 3.5 pounds or less. They are a delight to fly. And for people that want to start with something a little more docile than an EF1, they would make a great intro class for EF1.

But the Club 40 planes are so established that it might be better to do Club 40 Electric. I'm thinking motors in the Power 46 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 670Kv by E-flite (EFLM4046A) class and 5 cell LiPo batteries. The big issue would be different equipment than EF1. Battery cost is a big issue for racing electrics.

Is there any interest in an electric Club 40 racing class?
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Old 11-19-2013, 07:51 AM
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Ken Erickson
 
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Folks,

Here are the latest pictures.

Not only are the solid color LA Racers coming in the new style, as Don mentioned, but now they added the Consumer colors as well. I received White and Yellow solids, 2 Orange and one Blue in the new style and a Blue, a Green and a Black in the old style. The new style are $10.00 more, $149.99. In the future all LA Racers will be the new style, but Airborne Models still has a few of the older ones.

In the Manual, the hatch is referred to as a "Battery Cover".

The pictures are of a Blue LA Racer.

Most of us currently race Sky Raiders. Fai says they will not change.




Ken
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:24 AM
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Battery prices have fallen way down from where they once were. The Turnigy Nano-Tech batteries are quite good and several of us EF-1 guys have started to use them.

I have mixed feelings about an electric version of Club 40. Club 40 is already competing with EF-1 to get people into racing BUT starting off with an EF-1 plane would be more difficult than a Sky Raider type racer. The SR flies so well! The EF-1 planes are a challenge to take off in race mode and taking off on grass is really hard. The SR just takes off, no drama.

I totally agree with Don, Club Wingman makes more sense simply because it would be lower cost than going to a 46 size electric motor and batteries. By keeping the same power and rules as EF-1, that should keep electric racing more affordable. The electric guys could have one set of common batteries to race with. They could start with the Wingman II and then move up to EF-1.

The downside of the Club Wingman idea is that it could splinter the entry level racing into three groups and we may not have enough participants in three classes to race with. Club Wingman makes a lot of sense buy hardly anyone around here is showing any interest in it. EF-1 is starting to show some momentum and I think it will do well next season.

My 2 cents
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:42 AM
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Besides the info in Tim's post, running more than one class takes more time, whether it is more time on one race day or more race days. Three or four classes on the same day, with enough pilots in each class, would be way too long.

Additional 1 or 2 cents,

Ken
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:50 AM
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There are an increasing number of people (and clubs) that are electric only. For people, it's reliability of power systems, no gunk, no (direct) fuel costs, and other factors. For clubs, it's noise limitations, perceived safety, space, and other factors.

EF1 planes are attractive and the options are growing in airframe selection. ARF's are readily available now. People can still build if they want. It looks to have a bright future. But EF1 planes are not necessarily appropriate for newcomers and all fields. I can easily fly Club 40 planes and the Wingman II on my field. However, I think it will be a challenge to fly EF1 on my field for many, at least for landing and maybe takeoff.

Using a spec airframe with the same power system as EF1 (with the possibility of a slightly enhanced motor selection for lower Kv motors) is basically what we did with Club 40. Using 424 engines so that people could also fly AMA 424 without buying all new engines. At least some have gone from Club 40 to 424 and beyond.

I have flown the Wingman II since 2008 or early 2009 with a variety of motors. The World Models motor, OS 25, Arrowind EF1, Arrowind 2820/07 (920Kv). With the EF1 motors, you can safely use an APC 11x5.5E or 10x7E. With the lower Kv motors, an 11x8E works well. Speeds are comparable to RCPRO Club 40 Advanced. Definitely within the AMA 540-B spec for Club 40.

Just because classes are defined doesn't mean that every club or CD should try to fly all of the classes. People tend to gravitate to specific interests or what is most popular with the majority of people. The lineup of racing classes is constantly in flux and some certainly believe that more is not good. Classes tend to evolve and mature, and eventually disappear.

Perhaps calling a class Club Wingman is a mistake. There is at least one other comparable airframe that has already been used for electric racing. So maybe another designation is more appropriate.

I think LA Racer 40 planes will make fine electric planes. They just need more motor and battery than a plane like the Wingman II to be much fun.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:10 PM
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Ken Erickson
 
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I just opened the box of a white LA Racer. There is no hatch!

The reason I opened the blue one was that I was surprised that it had the Aluminum gear. I had assumed they would only come later, after all the wire geared ones were sold. But once I learned that some of the decorated ones had the gear and pants, I thought I would be able to more quickly sell it to a club member who wanted a "prettier" plane.

Anyway, white and yellow have no hatch.

We will see which of the planes are more in demand next year.

As soon as I finish with "Winterization" od our residence, I will finish assembling the blue LA Racer, take pictures and advertise the "Attractive" airplanes to club members as Christmas Present suggestions.

Ken
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:32 AM
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I've done more research of motors and batteries for "Club 40 Electric". HobbyKing has a motor Turnigy G46 Brushless Outrunner 670kv (.46 Glow) that has almost identical specs to the Power 46 Brushless Outrunner Motor, 670Kv by E-flite (EFLM4046A).

And there are 5S batteries in the 500 gram range like the Turnigy nano-tech 3300mah 5S 65~130C Lipo Pack and the Turnigy nano-tech 2700mah 5S 65~130C Lipo Pack in the 410 gram range. EF-1 batteries may even be doable, but I think the speed would only be in the Club 40 Sport range.

I've flown the Wingman II with the EF1 power systems a lot and other than feeling "lighter", it very much feels like a Club 40 Advanced plane. It gets pushed around by wind a little more. But the speeds are comparable. I think it might be feasible to race Club Wingman and Club 40 Electric together. It may even be feasible to run Club 40 Advanced, Club 40 Electric, and Club Wingman together. At my field next year, I will only do electric. And since they are going to be "fun" practice races, I will probably fly Club 40 Electric and Club Wingman together if I find they are reasonably close in performance.
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Old 11-29-2013, 06:02 PM
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I got the Turnigy G46 Brushless Outrunner 670kv (.46 Glow) and it fits the LA Racer 40 firewall bolt pattern almost exactly. No problem putting screws right in. I think the Sky Raider Mach II has the same pattern, so it could work on those too. Making a hatch would be required, but I've seen it done plenty of times. If the E-flite Power 46 has the same mounting pattern, it would really simplify choosing motors for "Club 40 Electric". These should be able to run on 2700 mAh 5 or 6 cell batteries.

Now all I need to do is get standoffs and I will be ready to put one together to see what size of battery balances right and gives the right performance.
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Old 12-22-2013, 05:52 AM
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Default TWM LA Racer 40 Solid White

This is the new version of the LA Racer 40. It has the aluminum landing gear with wheel pants. The wheel pants do make it look a little classier. I don't know how well they will hold up to grass fields. The aluminum landing gear is nice though.
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Last edited by DonStegall; 12-22-2013 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 12-22-2013, 08:22 PM
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Where do you guys purchase these from. Also how do they compete against a GP viper?
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Old 12-22-2013, 08:40 PM
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We buy them from Airborne Models. They have a web site.

They don't compete against the Viper unless the Viper has a .25.

These are sport planes, actually aerobatic trainers we use in RCPRO Club 40 Racing. However, more Sky Raiders are used than LA Racers..

Read a lot of the threads on this forum to get more info.

Or read our "Rules" and "Procedures" at www.rcpro.org
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:32 PM
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I will answer your question in more depth. The Club 40 planes with a Thunder Tiger Pro 40 do about 95-100 mph. With a good .46, about 100-105 mph. 110 if you add a tuned exhaust. A Viper with a Thunder Tiger Pro 40 gets in the 115-120 mph range. They are more fun to fly if you are racing them on a course. You can't steer on the ground very well at all with the V-tail and no tail wheel. The Club 40 planes are reasonable fast and reasonably aerobatic. Very club friendly but still faster than a lot of sport planes. Of course, you can always find something sleeker and faster.

The LA Racer 40 and Sky Raider Mach II (SRM2) are basically the same plane with a difference of a nicer fuselage top and a cowl on the LA Racer. They just look nicer. And an LA Racer has dual aileron servos mounted in front of the ailerons. I personally use dual aileron servos on the SRM2 because you need a little aileron differential to get them to roll axially.

The new ones sell for $149.99 plus shipping and/or tax. If you want the white one I have that has just been opened to take photos, you can have it tonight or in the morning for $125 shipped and I will ship it tomorrow or Thursday via FedEx Ground. I take PayPal and credit cards. I can send you a PayPal invoice and I never see your card information. This is a one time deal. (to the first taker ... I'll be glad to keep the plane for my own use though )

See http://www.abmshowcase.com/the_world...0/default.aspx for more information and a link to AirBorne Models.

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Old 12-23-2013, 09:12 PM
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I have a NIB skyraider but the guys in club are running Vipers, I wish I could find a Lanier predator II Arf but I will probably have to settle for a viper.
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Old 12-24-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by twostroke View Post
I have a NIB skyraider but the guys in club are running Vipers, I wish I could find a Lanier predator II Arf but I will probably have to settle for a viper.
I see that you are on Lake Mille Lacs. I hope you are staying warm. There is a very active Q-500 racing group in the MSP area. They fly at the "Grass Field R/C club". They race full-blown 424/426 aircraft. A SRMkII with a TT40 is still slightly slower than a Viper, even if the Viper is running an OS .25. If the Viper is 40 powered, there is no comparison. That doesn't necessarily mean that a SRMkII can't beat a 25-powered Viper if the Viper is poorly flown and the SRMkII is well flown. As far as I know, the ONLY wood Q-500 ARF out there is the GP Viper. I have suggested to Fai at World Models that they should make a Q-500 but so far, nothing. Perhaps Don Stegall can convince him. There are several composite 426 ARF's out there, but $500 is a bit much for club racing. So, I guess the bottom line is that if the club is flying 40-powered Q-500's and you want to be competitive, then a SRMkII won't hack it, if their Vipers are .25-powered then you can have a chance with a TT40 powered SRMkII but you had better fly it very smoothly. That being said, I have 2 SRMkII's and they are my favorite sport planes as well as being great fun in Club 40 racing.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:23 AM
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club 40 racers should stay nitro powered , we have enough trouble keeping people coming back , Ive had an electric converted la racer running on 4s , was ok but started giving up around 8 laps , of course the battery could be changed to ,instead took the electric out ,in with tt40 and went racing! I think EF1 is enough electric racing , a beginner class would only detract from current interest and we only have so much interest in racing these days , In central Texas we have Ef1 , Q25 and club 40 , Just not enough interest to support more classes , at least not now , looks like if the la racer is going to change that much we may have to limit club 40 to sky raiders only or old style la racers , wouldnt mind some 424 but doesnt seem to be enough interest to get it going , just my take ,could be wrong, I want to do it all , just not enough time and money.
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:33 AM
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Hey Gary J. and Stevie B., how about a few speed secrets for the rest of us. Is 21500 rpm too much for my TT40 ? It seems to be a little slow compared to the rest of the planes. I thought the higher rpms would make the plane go faster but it seems to be the opposite. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
p.s. Is the 7x6.5 prop too small ?

Thanks in advance
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:45 AM
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You must have had one hell of night last night, Squidman... What were you drinking/smoking??? It will be great to see you again, and I'm looking forward to another great year of racing. Here is a speed secret... I have heard that pouring sand into your intake while the engine is running will polish the piston and liner. Just saying...
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:56 AM
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Should I grind the sand for a fine finish? Should I mix it with epoxy, white glue or 3 in 1 oil? What rpm or prop? Would removing it from the crankcase work better? Your recommendation has opened up a lot more questions
Any tricks are welcome.
Thanks Gary.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by stevebla View Post
club 40 racers should stay nitro powered , we have enough trouble keeping people coming back , Ive had an electric converted la racer running on 4s , was ok but started giving up around 8 laps , of course the battery could be changed to ,instead took the electric out ,in with tt40 and went racing! I think EF1 is enough electric racing , a beginner class would only detract from current interest and we only have so much interest in racing these days , In central Texas we have Ef1 , Q25 and club 40 , Just not enough interest to support more classes , at least not now , looks like if the la racer is going to change that much we may have to limit club 40 to sky raiders only or old style la racers , wouldnt mind some 424 but doesnt seem to be enough interest to get it going , just my take ,could be wrong, I want to do it all , just not enough time and money.
I have received quite a bit of interest in Club 40 Electric. A lot of messages on Facebook from the Club 40 Racing page after I posted the picture of the Turnigy G46 mounted on a new LA Racer 40. People are looking forward to me publishing rules for Club 40 Electric.

Just because I create a rules proposal, doesn't mean that it will go anywhere. A few people have tried Club Wingman, but I don't know of any actual formal races. I know I really enjoy the Wingman II with an EF1 motor in it. As far as your plane giving up after 8 laps, that was probably more a battery and prop thing. If I run a 10x7E on the Wingman, it starts to give up around 7-9 laps. With an 11x5.5E or a 10x6E, I give up some speed, but the battery is still strong after 11 laps.

Less than 5 cells with a motor at 670Kv like the Turnigy G46 and E-flite Power 46 is not going to hold up unless it is a high rated battery. And 4 cells with those motors are not going to give good speed.

I am going to run Club 40 Electric and Club Wingman together at my field this year. I will have the rules for Club 40 Electric ready by the first of March, weather permitting. And even though we had snow this week, I got in two flights with my Groovy 3D on my field today. A lot of gusty wind for a 2 pound plane, but the field has already dried up some. A lot more than I thought it would after all the times it has been flooded this winter.

In terms of class proliferation, there are a number of groups racing Sky Raiders with .46 engines. And other groups using Sky Raiders, LA Racers, and T-34 Mentors with .46 engines. They can't call what they do RCPRO Club 40, but they can race as Club 40 by AMA Document 540-B http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/540-B.pdf. Personally I think that inclusion is a better policy than excluding people with very similar ideas and interests.

I have been promoting Club 40 Open to the RCPRO Club 40 Committee for at least a couple of years. Club 40 Open would allow more planes and engines up to .46 ... However, I have met resistance and have tried to yield to the Committee.

2012 was a debacle for the Thunder Tiger Pro 40. And now you can't even get one from Tower Hobbies for the time being. Right now they say Late March. People can't get pistons and sleeves.

T-34 is doing well on the West Coast. They allow the O.S. 46 AX and Thunder Tiger Pro 46. They can race them as Club 40 on the 540-B course but they do use a longer course as their fields have the room.

A number of groups reference the http://www.Club40Racing.com rules and I believe that is a good thing. Chuck Waller and the Texas group put a lot of effort into the rules and they adapted. The RCPRO Club 40 Committee works on the rules as things come up and they have done a great job. But a number of groups have additional restrictions and clarifications.

The NMPRA made changes to the EF1 rules this year. So making changes to fit the needs is sometimes necessary and creating new classes to meet the needs of more people are necessary.

I hope 2014 is a good year for Club 40. It is good to see as many race dates as are already set showing up. Let's all just have fun.

Last edited by DonStegall; 02-01-2014 at 11:44 AM.
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