DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

I would like to get feedback on a topic that has been discussed in the past, both in the forums, Facebook, and the RCPRO Club 40 Committee.

You can reply to this message, or if you want to comment privately, I will respect your privacy.

RCPRO Club 40 already has two tiers of engine specifications for Club 40.

Club 40 (Advanced) - Ball bearing engines up to .40 c.i.

Club 40 Sport - Bushing engines up to .46 c.i.

When Club 40 and AMA 540-B were being worked on, the OS 40 LA was available. Also, the engine for AMA 424 Sport Quickie was/is the Thunder Tiger PRO 40. So 540-B had a limit of .40 c.i. for the engine. The O.S. 40 LA was discontinued. No reliable ..40 bushing engines were available. So it was requested of the AMA Executive Council that a rule be added to 540-B. Instead they removed the engine specification and kept the 100 mph limit and break-out time of 64.8 seconds. This allowed the Thunder Tiger GP .42 ABC w/Muffler and the O.S. 46LA ABN w/Muffler engines to remain legal for 540-B Club 40.

Almost all .40 engines have been discontinued or there have been supply problems with them. New Thunder Tiger PRO 40 engines were not available for over 6 months. And there is speculation that the PRO 40 may be discontinued. If you check these forums, you will see that the president of Thunder Tiger questioned the need for the PRO 40.

There are groups out there, particularly in the Mid-West and the West running races using the 540-B Club 40 spec and using .46 c.i. engines. When I ran races in Charlotte, I had a large number off requests to use .46 engines or comments that if .46 engines were allowed, more people would participate. Many people just don't want to buy .40 engines because most planes designed for that size motor perform better with a .46 swinging a bigger prop.

I have received a number of emails and other communications that people want to be able to use .46 engines and call their event RCPRO Club 40. A Club 40 airplane with a .46 will not break-out of the time limit. And they are right at 100 mph. I had a basket weave Sky Raider Mach II with an O.S. 40 AX on it. It was marginally faster that the .40, but felt more solid in the air. Unfortunately I gave the airplane and Tx to my wife's cousin for Christmas in 2010. But I have acquired a range of .46 engines including the new design Thunder Tiger PRO 40. A very nice looking engine and lug mounting compatible with the TT PRO 40 and the older TT PRO 40. However, it does not work with Quickie backplate mounts that replace the backplate. The piston hits even a mount with a piston skirt relief. The rear bolt pattern is the same.

For the past several years, I have promoted to the RCPRO Club 40 Committee that we include a .46 c.i. tier. So far, it has not gained traction among the majority of the members and has not been approved. It could be called Club 46 or some other name to differentiate it from Club 40 (Advanced).

Please consider the information in this post and reply. Either publicly or privately. Feel free to state what your group uses and if you approve or disapprove of adding a .46 tier.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

This is the new Thunder Tiger PRO 46. It is a new design. The mounting lugs are larger, the carb bolts on with 2 screws, and it mounts in the same space as a TT PRO 40 with the same distance to the thrust washer. As I posted, elsewhere, Q-500 mounts, even with a piston relief, have interference with the piston skirt. The backplate mount holes are the same dimension as the PRO 40. My video taping table is covered up in .46 engines for my research on a .46 tier of Club 40. On the table are the PRO 46, a PRO 40, a Magnum 46 XLS, and an Evolution 46 NX.

tsawyer148

My Feedback: (8)

Is that a plastic backplate on the new Pro .46?

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Yes, it partially plastic. There is a metal piece that seems to be molded in. You can see that there are angles on the side of the piston skirt relief. I'm assuming this is for fuel flow.

I have not taken the carb off yet. Been way too busy this weekend working on bagging Quickie wings and taking care of Cindy. It bolts on using two screws from the top. I don't see any gap between the carb and the crankcase, so I don't know if it has an O-ring or gasket. Can't see a gasket from the outside. I will take it off when I get time.

I will answer questions about any of the engines. Might be a day or so. Have a heavy work week this week. I will be taking them all apart for inspection and cleaning. I'm glad to take photos that may answer questions. Can probably answer questions on fitting them to Quickies as well.

In terms of lug mounting, the Magnum 46 XLS and the Evolution 46 NX are compatible with the OS 46 engines. The Thunder Tiger engines have a narrower lug hole to lug hole space and a longer same lug mounting dimension.

Ken Erickson

We want your input!

If you are the leader of a group racing in accordance with the AMA 540-B document, we want to hear from you. Do you want an RCPRO Club 46 class?

You can reply here . I would prefer an e-mail, instead or as well. My address is: [email protected]. (that is an underscore, not a space)

By we, I mean Don and myself.

The Club 40 committee is made up of the President and Vice President of RCPRO and the leaders of the six RCPRO Club 40 circuits that we know about. If you are the leader of a Club 40 Circuit, or a Club 46 circuit, we want to get to know you.

Thank you,

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Here is one club/ciruit that allows only the Sky Raider Mach II and .46 engines:

http://www.wichitaradiocontrolclub.o.../sportsman.htm

They fly a longer course.

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

I don't see how this will help us. We have a lot of used TT40 engines available here from people dropping out and the TT40 is still available so I don't see a engine change helping our situation. When the TT40 is no longer available we may need to do this but I just don't see how splintering the race classes will help right now. Hopefully we will be able to recover from this year and get racing going again. With the possible loss of the T-town race it will be difficult at best. I think that a lot of our racers have just burned out. Actually, I'm surprised that the racing has lasted as long as it has here. I am not seeing any interest in pylon racing from the new people in our club. FPV RC is taking over our hobby.
Tim

WSwope

My Feedback: (5)

I don't understand Don's preoccupation with creating more and more divisions within Club 40. Every time he ask this question the answer is the same. A RESOUNDING NO! The more you splinter this already splintered group the less likely it survives at all.An engine swap is nothing but a requirement to spend MORE money to remain competitive in the same class we have already invested in multiple times. A quick glance at the Tower website currently shows the TT40 in stock but the TT46 out of stock. With the supply chain on all our supplies originating over seas everything we use will at one time or another be out of stock, You know this Don. With the decision to bring Club 40 to the Nats. we should be concentrating on providing the most competitive event we can and not trying to provide more marketing opportunities for anyone!
Will Swope

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Perhaps you don't have the communications that I have with people all over the country (and world).

The AMA has 422, 424, and 426. And the NMPRA has EF1. Not everyone races all of the classes.

I created the Club 40 class, got solid color Sky Raider Mach II and LA Racer 40 kits available, wrote an article about it for the October 2009 Model Aviation and got the class going nationwide.

Maybe I know just a little more about what people at large want, than the vocal people like yourself, and I hear more on the phone and through various other means.

And you can call me after work hours at 704-968-2881 and if you want face-to-face, I can FaceTime and Skype.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

I understand your concern about the 2015 Club 40 NATS during the Pylon NATS. Since I was one of the organizers with Dan Kan Jr, I don't want this to be a distraction.

But RCPRO has RCPRO Warbird Racing with three tiers: Bronze, Silver, Gold.

And we also have Club Wingman that people are racing as Club 40 under http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/540-B.pdf (aka AMA 540-B). That class is getting ready to take off as some people are finding the EF1's to be a little difficult to handle andthey can use their EF1 power systems in the Wingman II.

In terms of profit, I have proposed additional airframes from makers other than The World Models for Club 40 to the RCPRO Club 40 Committee.

One alternative to the TT PRO 40 at http://www.nitroplanes.com/asp.html?...oq8aAvQg8P8HAQ ... Look for the ASP S40AII 2 Stroke Glow Engine with Muffler for Airplane and also the ASP S46AII 2 Stroke Glow Engine with Muffler for Airplane.

WSwope

My Feedback: (5)

I apologize Sire,

I was unaware you only wanted to hear from Serfs who agreed with you. I was under the mistaken impression this was a public forum and open to all input,positive and negative. I was also unaware that Club 40 could not exist without Your Majesties blessing! You have succeeded however in changing my opinion. If you have all this worldwide knowledge with all these worldwide leaders perhaps you should have one of them state your case because you aren't doing such a great job of convincing me. Crying something is hard to come by while it is in stock for immediate shipment doesn't fly with me.

As Always, Your Respectful Serf,
Will Swope

P.s. When are we planning to hold the first race in Dubai and who will the sanctioning body. Be?

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

The shop is already getting decorated for the holiday season. Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas to ALL. I really appreciate the support and especially those who ordered Quickie 500 wings this year and were patient with me.

308jockey

Though I didn't race or fly any other events this year for that matter I still have a fleet of Club 40, 424 and EF-1 planes ready to go. I'm not in favor of changing engines unless we can't find a source for an extended time period. In that case maybe we can transition over, I mean it's not as though we are replacing one $400 engine with another one. I'll still have much less tied up in six racing airplanes than I do in a pair of pattern planes.

Rick H.

Ken Erickson

Everyone,

We are not changing engines!!!

We are not changing engines!!!!

The proposal to add a third, separate, class to RCPRO Club 40 is just that, separate. None, not one, of the present circuits have any intention of allowing .46 engines to run in our races.

The purpose of adding a separate class for engines up to .46 is to promote more racing. We have been told there are people out there who have said, "Gee, I would like to do this racing, but I want to do it with a .46. I won't buy a .40 engine." We want to say, "Welcome to a fun way of racing." If someone wants to race in a manner in keeping with the proven rules and procedures of RCPRO Club 40 and AMA document 540-B, but for some reason doesn't want to do so with .40 engines, we want them to feel welcome to contact us and get the same advice for starting up a racing circuit that almost all of the present circuits have received in the past.

None, not one, of the present circuits have any intention of changing engines.

We are not changing engines!!!!!

Thank you,

Ken Erickson
RCPRO Club 40 National Rules Committee Chairman

GREG DOE

Everyone, please note Don Stegall is not proposing REPLACING the Pro 40 with the 46. What he is suggesting is that we add a 46 class. Note that in some circuits this is exactly what people are doing; racing with 46's. I don't know of a single group that's racing Pro 40's that is interested in changing to 46. However, if and when the 40's dry up, or if for any reason a group decides to change to 46's there would be a class for it. This idea is causing a lot on needless controversy. I promise, if you like your 40's you can keep your 40's. I happen to agree with some of the other opinions that have been posted here, that we have more then enough racing classes, but I'm not going to belittle Don for his ideas. Don really is the architect of Club 40, so even if you don't agree with his proposal, at least give him some common courtesy. This is only my opinion, so now you can blast me. Everybody else does.

308jockey

"I see," said the blind man. I was under the impression that you were proposing a change, not an additional class. I have no problem with that, I even have a couple of unemployed Pro .46 motors in good shape. They'd drop right in a Skyraider. I wonder how much faster, if at all, the .46 would pull a Skyraider.

Rick H.

WSwope

My Feedback: (5)

I completely understand Don is not wanting to replace the TT40 but create a new division. By definition it is just that a division! I believe we need to seek a more unified set of rules so it is possible to race the same plane, engine,fuel tank,and whatever regardless of where I am going to race. I don't want a Texas engine,an Indiana engine,and an Alabama engine. I would like to be able to travel state to state without modifying my plane to be legal or competitive. Don't confuse the issue here. WE NEED A UNIFIED SET OF RULES!
Will Swope

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Rick,

i flew a Sky Raider Mach II with an O.S. 46 AX as my everyday practice plane for several years. Using an APC 10x6, there is basically no difference. The plane was more stable in the turns with the bigger prop. Using a smaller higher pitch prop would gain a tiny amount of speed, but because of the drag it takes a significant increase in power to get the speed up. I think the most gain you can get with a sport 46 is 3-4 mph.

If you search the forums, you will see I have a plane I call "The World's Fastest Sky Raider Mach II". It has a Quickie JETT with a REDJETT carb. This was a 428 engine and running an APC 9 x 7.5 pylon prop, it is significantly faster. I did use a solid stab on it and it did not have the wing reinforced at all. I estimate the speed at 125 to 130 as it is faster than a 424 plane.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Will,

That is one reason I proposed the 46 engine class. Because there are groups using them. Mike Tallman in Wichita has a Sportsman class where everyone runs O.S. 46 engines. And there are others.

The RCPRO Club 40 Committee is very active in getting the rules situated for 2015.

I did not get the 2014 rules on the RCPRO site earlier in the year, but you can find them at http://www.rcpro.org/content/rcpro/c...4/default.aspx.

We will be getting the 2015 rules online as soon as they are finalized.

And more information is going to be available at Club40Racing.com like schedules and Committee members, etc.

elmshoot

My Feedback: (6)

Not needed! Why not add a .25 class as well? If I were setting up a race program in my area (which I was doing when I ran into Ken) I would canvas my likely racers and find out what engines guys had and were interested in running. If I recall the RC Combat guys use a .25 so there could concieveably be interested in racing with this motor since a lot of guys had those engines laying around. (But then they may want a different airplane to get the speed up.) Regardless If they are interested in traveling to other areas of the country and race they would need to run .40 engines. Is Mike running LA Racers or SR2 in KS? Last I talked to him about this they were not, so I don't think this is a valid point. If he isn't running those airframes i doubt he is interested in the Club .40 or .46 rules. But I have been wrong before. Also from what I have read the current Club 40 planes might not be strong enough for the bigger engine in the race environment. Especially if the plane has some wounds (damage) from hard racing (and landings) and would stay together if they aren't flying at 105% of the design speeds.
Talk about a buzzkill if you find out after you fold up a few planes that they aren't up to the task and must be modified to be up to the task of SPORT racing, If you want to go fast NMPRA is there. My guess is the .46 guys who are whining about "having to buy" a little .40 are tire kickers anyway. Engines are consumable especially if you are racing them, they wear out from being run hard and need replacement why not buy a .40 not a .46 price is about the same.
National debate on how a local club conducts some experimental fun racing is waste of bandwidth.
Will I help that local club if I can? You bet!
Maybe they will progress to the point were they want to be able to race out of the local area. That is were Club 40 will be waiting.

Sparky

tsawyer148

My Feedback: (8)

Taken from the Wichita RC Club website under the Sportsman Racing rules found here:
http://www.wichitaradiocontrolclub.o.../sportsman.htm

Airplane:
Stock World Models Sky Raider Mach-II ARF
Four (4) standard size servos required with minimum 500 mah battery pack Bottom of right wing to have contrasting 2 digit vertical racing number (8 inches high / 1.25 inches wide minimum) readable while plane is in left bank
Racing number to be registered with Mike Tallman

Engine:
Only side exhaust stock sport engines allowed
Two stroke - up to .46 cubic inches GMS .47 allowed
Stock carburetor and muffler required
Muffler pressure only to the carburetor
No bubbleless tanks allowed
Spinner or AMA nut required
Mac’s 6620 ST 40-45 muffler or Mac’s 6590 OS 40-45/TT 40 muffler allowed If the CD has reason to doubt that an engine is “stock” the burden of proof is on the person using the engine to show that it is legal.
Performance or racing engines will not be allowed such as:
Nelson
Jett
Rossi
Picco
Webra
Edmonds
Y-S
MVVS
Norvel

Haven't talked to Mike in awhile, but according to the race results, they had a race on Sept. 14, 2014. I have also been flying a TT Pro .46 engine on a Skyraider Mach II for several years and have flown the same engine on the LA Racer. The airframes have no problem with the larger engines even built as per the instructions with no mods or enhancements.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Sparky,

Please go to RCPRO Racing and visit the links on that page.

We already have RCPRO Quickie 25 .... But I have not been listing the schedules. There are areas besides Texas that are using these rules.

And read the rules for RCPRO Warbird Racing. The RCPRO Warbird circuit has been active since 2004 when RCPRO was created in late 2003. See http://rcpylonracing.com/ to see how it fits in with the Western area.

Club Wingman is gaining traction as people find out that NMPRA EF1 planes are not for newcomers. The propulsion system spec needs to be updated as the NMPRA EF1 has been updated. The planes are slightly smaller Sky Raider Mach II like with much lighter construction, but still reasonably close in size. They are an absolute blast to fly. And they are being raced as Club 40 under AMA 540-B.

The RCPRO P-51 Giant Scale Racing is going to be changing as people want to fly other giant scale planes with the 30-40 cc engines.

Please note that NMPRA EF1 is not an AMA class yet. The NMPRA or at least its members have formed various classes over the years before they became official AMA events.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Please visit Sky Raider Mach II and http://www.theworldmodels.com/para/p...airplaneid=220. You will see that the 2 stroke engine size is .40 to .46. And The World Models is very conservative with their engines specs.

I have a Sky Raider Mach II that I have been flying since 2007 or so with a Quickie JETT 428 .40 engine with a REDJETT carb on it. With an APC 9x7.5 pylon prop on it. The only reinforcing done was to make a solid 1/4" stab for it. It has had the heck flown out of it with a lot of extreme pylon turns.

In terms of folding wings, I have had many Club 40 planes and I used to let other people fly my planes. It cost me some crashed planes. But no folded wings.

If you don't glue the wing together properly it may fold. You need to use epoxy mixed with cabosil or microfibers so that there is no gap in the joint.

elmshoot

My Feedback: (6)

That's good info to know that the planes are up to the strain from someone who races them Thanks Tsawer148.
Sparky
PS Yes as i said I have been wrong before so my track record continues.... I had sent a email to Mike about this but I don't know if I had a good email addy.
Glad to see guys are racing that is the important part.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Sparky,

I ran 3 races in 2008 and 4 in 2009 at Lowe's Motor Speedway (Charlotte Motor Speedway now) ... even came in 3rd place in one in 2008. I was shocked as I was reading the winners because it is hard to run a race and fly in it too.

See this http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/club...r-mach-ii.html\

And check out http://www.rcpro.org/net/ThreadView.aspx?threadid=782 and http://www.rcpro.org/net/Forums.aspx?forumid=4 for more race results.

I hope to get 2 pole active back in the Carolina's next year and especially 2016.