Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
03-30-2007, 09:50 AM
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Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Please use this thread to discuss Rules and allowed mods.
Some of the main issues from the Hangout thread were.
Re-covering?
Fuel Tanks?
Stock Hardware?
Wheels / Landing gear?
Pushrods?
Sealing Gap surfaces?
Cheek cowl mods?
Reinforcement?
etc...
Have at it.
Some of the main issues from the Hangout thread were.
Re-covering?
Fuel Tanks?
Stock Hardware?
Wheels / Landing gear?
Pushrods?
Sealing Gap surfaces?
Cheek cowl mods?
Reinforcement?
etc...
Have at it.
03-30-2007, 10:52 AM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Let's race folks! As long as we keep to the two airframes and engines currently specified in the Club 40 Rules I don't think any mods will result in a measurable speed advantage. These are just suggestions...
Re-covering? Allow it - use anything you want: Toughlon - Monokote - Econocote - Solarfilm - FasCal - Silk and Dope, etc.
Fuel Tanks? Allow any tank - any size...vented or Bubbleless
Stock Hardware? Use any brand, metric or SAE, kit supplied and/or whatever you have available
Wheels / Landing gear? Wheels must not be smaller (diameter) or thinner (width) than stock; filing flats on landing gears for a better set screw (grub screw) bite is encouraged to prevent loss of mains and tailwheel. Steerable tailwheel is required!
Pushrods? Use anything you want BUT they must exit at the points per stock airframes...in other words, NO INTERNAL Control Horns for Rudder and Elevator
Sealing Gap surfaces? Encouraged, but not required
Cheek cowl mods? Allowed as long as they stay internal to the engine compartment area and don't change the shape of the airframe.
Wing interchangeability Either wing may be used on either fuselage
Servo Tray May be changed (but it is not an easy modification)
Additional Hinges Allowed - use as many as you want, mechanical or CA type
Reinforcement? Encouraged, but not required. Examples: Reinforcing wing center section; landing gear block; wing hold down blocks, etc.
Wing Bolts Nylon bolts allowed - any size. Taping over the supplied metal ones to prevent loss due to vibration highly suggested!
Muffler Allow JB Welding and pinning the muffler halves together to prevent loss of muffler.
Propellor Allow anything including wood props. Balancing highly recommended
Spinner Spinner/Prop nut highly recommended - not required. Aluminum spinner (any size) allowed. "Heavy Hub" allowed for balancing if required. Use the supplied plastic spinner at your own risk
Fuel Bring your own. Any nitro % allowed
Minimum Weight 4 lbs - 8 ounces - Ball Bearing engine, 4 lbs - 6 oz Bushing engine
You folks take it from here...
Re-covering? Allow it - use anything you want: Toughlon - Monokote - Econocote - Solarfilm - FasCal - Silk and Dope, etc.
Fuel Tanks? Allow any tank - any size...vented or Bubbleless
Stock Hardware? Use any brand, metric or SAE, kit supplied and/or whatever you have available
Wheels / Landing gear? Wheels must not be smaller (diameter) or thinner (width) than stock; filing flats on landing gears for a better set screw (grub screw) bite is encouraged to prevent loss of mains and tailwheel. Steerable tailwheel is required!
Pushrods? Use anything you want BUT they must exit at the points per stock airframes...in other words, NO INTERNAL Control Horns for Rudder and Elevator
Sealing Gap surfaces? Encouraged, but not required
Cheek cowl mods? Allowed as long as they stay internal to the engine compartment area and don't change the shape of the airframe.
Wing interchangeability Either wing may be used on either fuselage
Servo Tray May be changed (but it is not an easy modification)
Additional Hinges Allowed - use as many as you want, mechanical or CA type
Reinforcement? Encouraged, but not required. Examples: Reinforcing wing center section; landing gear block; wing hold down blocks, etc.
Wing Bolts Nylon bolts allowed - any size. Taping over the supplied metal ones to prevent loss due to vibration highly suggested!
Muffler Allow JB Welding and pinning the muffler halves together to prevent loss of muffler.
Propellor Allow anything including wood props. Balancing highly recommended
Spinner Spinner/Prop nut highly recommended - not required. Aluminum spinner (any size) allowed. "Heavy Hub" allowed for balancing if required. Use the supplied plastic spinner at your own risk
Fuel Bring your own. Any nitro % allowed
Minimum Weight 4 lbs - 8 ounces - Ball Bearing engine, 4 lbs - 6 oz Bushing engine
You folks take it from here...
03-30-2007, 12:13 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Funny that you mention this. I'm going to be trying some 30% in my LA .40 this weekend just to see if there is any performance gain. I doubt there will be that much, as to really take advantage of the additional nitro another shim would be needed on the head. I'll report back with what I find, but I have a feeling it will only be a couple 100RPM at best.
I pretty much agree with everything that Jim has to say. Although swapping wings might be a little much as it will change the drag profile of the Racer to be cleaner. I think as long as the drag profile stays the same the changes should be allowed. Having said that I do have the Racer and I would love to put the Raider wing on it since it's cleaner
So on one hand I'm all for it...but on the other it might be unfair. I'll have to see if Todd will let me borrow a wing of his for a couple of laps and see if there is that much of a performance gain...we can decide from there. I have no problems putting the Racer wing on the Raider.
Jared
I pretty much agree with everything that Jim has to say. Although swapping wings might be a little much as it will change the drag profile of the Racer to be cleaner. I think as long as the drag profile stays the same the changes should be allowed. Having said that I do have the Racer and I would love to put the Raider wing on it since it's cleaner
So on one hand I'm all for it...but on the other it might be unfair. I'll have to see if Todd will let me borrow a wing of his for a couple of laps and see if there is that much of a performance gain...we can decide from there. I have no problems putting the Racer wing on the Raider.Jared
03-30-2007, 12:20 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Here is my original message that I should have started a new topic with.
I knew this day was coming, but I was hoping it would be a little longer.
We need to keep it fun, but we may need to put a tighter set of rules together to control technology creep. Since I have been in contact with a large number of the groups and people that are flying Club 40, I will take on the task of identifying areas that may need regulation. And my end result will be presented as a Request For Comments (RFC). I will start the process by listing some of the issues that I know about. And I will pose some questions.
To streamline the text, a few terms will be abbreviated:
SRM2 - Sky Raider Mach II
LR40 - LA Racer 40
The engine compartment sides (cheeks?) of the SRM2 are an area begging for enhancement and controversy. They vibrate, and they sometimes flutter at speed. Plus they can break if banged significantly. Some groups allow a piece of wood or other material to join them. At least one person has added doublers to them. I don’t think either method is a speed enhancement. In fact, both could slow the plane down. But techniques could be used to reduce any speed penalty and therefore could enhance the performance. I think it is important to not allow rounding the edges significantly. Removing the cheeks could possibly be a speed improvement. I think that they must be in place at the start of a race. Reattaching them during an event will probably not hold up to flight conditions. I think a pre-event inspection may be required.
The landing gear block assembly has broken out of some planes. Repairing the damage will most likely not result in exactly the same configuration, especially if the original parts are lost or are too broken to reuse. One repair I saw shifted the gear forward a quarter to half inch. The SRM2 and LR40 use struts with the same mounting configuration and are interchangeable. The landing gear on the SRM2 is shorter than the LR40 gear. I personally have used a LR40 gear on a SRM2 because it gives more ground clearance. Another person has used a landing gear made from flat aluminum stock. I doubt if he used the stock wheels because he used Dubro American size axles. Lost wheels will most likely be something other than stock wheels. We will probably need to specify a minimum diameter and width if substitute wheels are allowed.
ARF tanks are often not available at the local hobby shop. People tend to replace ARF tanks, especially with use and development of leaks, with off the shelf tanks. And there is the issue of bladder tanks. Some would argue that bladder tanks improve performance, and unless homemade, they add significantly to the cost of the aircraft.
The spinner used could affect performance. Some will prefer to use a smaller spinner or prop nut. Some will want to use a larger spinner. I personally have replaced some spinners with aluminum spinners.
SRM2 and LR40 wings are interchangeable. The dual aileron servos on a LR40 wing are exposed and may have more drag. Using a SRM2 wing on a LR40 could provide an advantage. An LR40 wing on a SRM2 would probably provide no advantage. A local guy busted his SRM2 wing and I had a LR40 wing with one little dent. Is it ok for him to use a LR40 wing on a SRM2?
Sealing the gaps of control surfaces, or using gap/hinge seal tape is another issue.
Does the amount of dihedral in the wing need to be checked?
At least one local guy trimmed the bottom of his rudder so he could get more elevator throw. This modification was for better aerobatic capability, but could it have a benefit in a race? The only thing it seems to do is allow better snaps.
I replace the control horns with Dubro horns and I use Great Planes nylon clevises on 2-56 pushrods. I also push out the wing mounting blind nuts and replace the wing bolts with 1/4-20 nylon bolts. Is hardware substitution an issue?
We need to keep it fun, but we may need to put a tighter set of rules together to control technology creep. Since I have been in contact with a large number of the groups and people that are flying Club 40, I will take on the task of identifying areas that may need regulation. And my end result will be presented as a Request For Comments (RFC). I will start the process by listing some of the issues that I know about. And I will pose some questions.
To streamline the text, a few terms will be abbreviated:
SRM2 - Sky Raider Mach II
LR40 - LA Racer 40
The engine compartment sides (cheeks?) of the SRM2 are an area begging for enhancement and controversy. They vibrate, and they sometimes flutter at speed. Plus they can break if banged significantly. Some groups allow a piece of wood or other material to join them. At least one person has added doublers to them. I don’t think either method is a speed enhancement. In fact, both could slow the plane down. But techniques could be used to reduce any speed penalty and therefore could enhance the performance. I think it is important to not allow rounding the edges significantly. Removing the cheeks could possibly be a speed improvement. I think that they must be in place at the start of a race. Reattaching them during an event will probably not hold up to flight conditions. I think a pre-event inspection may be required.
The landing gear block assembly has broken out of some planes. Repairing the damage will most likely not result in exactly the same configuration, especially if the original parts are lost or are too broken to reuse. One repair I saw shifted the gear forward a quarter to half inch. The SRM2 and LR40 use struts with the same mounting configuration and are interchangeable. The landing gear on the SRM2 is shorter than the LR40 gear. I personally have used a LR40 gear on a SRM2 because it gives more ground clearance. Another person has used a landing gear made from flat aluminum stock. I doubt if he used the stock wheels because he used Dubro American size axles. Lost wheels will most likely be something other than stock wheels. We will probably need to specify a minimum diameter and width if substitute wheels are allowed.
ARF tanks are often not available at the local hobby shop. People tend to replace ARF tanks, especially with use and development of leaks, with off the shelf tanks. And there is the issue of bladder tanks. Some would argue that bladder tanks improve performance, and unless homemade, they add significantly to the cost of the aircraft.
The spinner used could affect performance. Some will prefer to use a smaller spinner or prop nut. Some will want to use a larger spinner. I personally have replaced some spinners with aluminum spinners.
SRM2 and LR40 wings are interchangeable. The dual aileron servos on a LR40 wing are exposed and may have more drag. Using a SRM2 wing on a LR40 could provide an advantage. An LR40 wing on a SRM2 would probably provide no advantage. A local guy busted his SRM2 wing and I had a LR40 wing with one little dent. Is it ok for him to use a LR40 wing on a SRM2?
Sealing the gaps of control surfaces, or using gap/hinge seal tape is another issue.
Does the amount of dihedral in the wing need to be checked?
At least one local guy trimmed the bottom of his rudder so he could get more elevator throw. This modification was for better aerobatic capability, but could it have a benefit in a race? The only thing it seems to do is allow better snaps.
I replace the control horns with Dubro horns and I use Great Planes nylon clevises on 2-56 pushrods. I also push out the wing mounting blind nuts and replace the wing bolts with 1/4-20 nylon bolts. Is hardware substitution an issue?
03-30-2007, 12:56 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Dave - I think at this point you're unbiased since you have never flown the event and as far as I know, have never built either plane allowed under the current "rules"...do you see anything suggested so far that would give someone an unfair advantage at winning the heat?
On the fuel issue: Speaking for Texas, we're trying to keep the entry fee at a minimum so to avoid the hosting club(s) from bearing the fuel costs, we allow the contestants to bring their own...thus enforcing a maximum nitro content is pretty tough. Personally, if someone shows up with 60% nitro, needling it becomes tougher, plugs will melt, and the chances of a DNF increase significantly. To me, running exotic fuel isn't worth the risk.
PLEASE newcomers, let us hear your concerns since this event is primarily intended for you to have fun and to feel that you're not at a disadvantage.
On the fuel issue: Speaking for Texas, we're trying to keep the entry fee at a minimum so to avoid the hosting club(s) from bearing the fuel costs, we allow the contestants to bring their own...thus enforcing a maximum nitro content is pretty tough. Personally, if someone shows up with 60% nitro, needling it becomes tougher, plugs will melt, and the chances of a DNF increase significantly. To me, running exotic fuel isn't worth the risk.
PLEASE newcomers, let us hear your concerns since this event is primarily intended for you to have fun and to feel that you're not at a disadvantage.
03-30-2007, 01:34 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Jim,
Its not so much as a mod that would give an unfair advantage, as it is a "Mod that is perceived as an unfair advantage".
Perception is far more powerfull, and damaging.
Here are my thoughts take them as you will, I will most likely never fly in this class:
I wouldn't allow bladder tanks. As much as I like them, I don't think they belong in this type of event. It brings on extra cost (tanks are expensive, and so is the tanker), and is not in my opinion in the spirit of the event.
Sealing the hinge line is fine. This is no big deal to me, anyone can do it with a little tape or covering and offers virtually no performance gain other than roll rate
I would limit fuel to 15% max, I really think the contestants would think that was fair, even if they were bringing their own fuel.
I see no issue in replacing hardware and pushrods, as long as they exit the plane where they are suppose to per the kit.
I like the idea of a minimum weight limit.
I like your idea on replacing the wheels as long as they are no skinnier or shorter.
Thats about it.
Its not so much as a mod that would give an unfair advantage, as it is a "Mod that is perceived as an unfair advantage".
Perception is far more powerfull, and damaging.
Here are my thoughts take them as you will, I will most likely never fly in this class:
I wouldn't allow bladder tanks. As much as I like them, I don't think they belong in this type of event. It brings on extra cost (tanks are expensive, and so is the tanker), and is not in my opinion in the spirit of the event.
Sealing the hinge line is fine. This is no big deal to me, anyone can do it with a little tape or covering and offers virtually no performance gain other than roll rate
I would limit fuel to 15% max, I really think the contestants would think that was fair, even if they were bringing their own fuel.
I see no issue in replacing hardware and pushrods, as long as they exit the plane where they are suppose to per the kit.
I like the idea of a minimum weight limit.
I like your idea on replacing the wheels as long as they are no skinnier or shorter.
Thats about it.
03-30-2007, 04:25 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
I haven't run an 40 la but when I run my 15 la on 30 percent fuel I get a large increase in power usually around 1k to 1.5k rpm.
Scott
Scott
03-30-2007, 04:42 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
I cannot resist it. I have to make a comment.
I have never flown club 40 and probably never will. I have nothing against it I am just too involved in what I already race. So often we hear that beginner racers want the advice of the experienced racers. Notice I did not use the word "Expert"
So I offer this warning. Reading this thread I get the impression that STOCK, STOCK, STOCK, is no longer satisfactory. Even unlimited fuel is allowed. Well keep it up.
This is exactly how we ended up with $1000,00 Quicky airplanes and $1500.00 Q40 airplanes
Ed S
I have never flown club 40 and probably never will. I have nothing against it I am just too involved in what I already race. So often we hear that beginner racers want the advice of the experienced racers. Notice I did not use the word "Expert"
So I offer this warning. Reading this thread I get the impression that STOCK, STOCK, STOCK, is no longer satisfactory. Even unlimited fuel is allowed. Well keep it up.
This is exactly how we ended up with $1000,00 Quicky airplanes and $1500.00 Q40 airplanes
Ed S
03-30-2007, 06:47 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Why would you want to waste good money on buying 30 -60% fuel + a plug a race on a beater motor and a airframe such as a club 40. Use 5% and keep it simple and user friendly.[sm=drowning.gif] You could call it formula club 40....
03-30-2007, 06:58 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Most hobby shops in the US don't carry 5% in quantity. 10% and 15% are the most common and well stocked 2 stroke fuels. Most do carry 30% heli fuel, but not in quantity.
Because of my trailer, people wanted me to carry fuel. 15% outsells the others by 4 to 1 at the minimum. Plus 15% is the standard fuel for AMA class racing.
I believe Jim Duda's suggestion for pilot supplied fuel is to keep it from being a complication for clubs hosting races. Acquiring fuel is a hassle. You have to be able to get the quantity needed. Determining the quantity needed is the catch. Unless you have a long pre-registration period, it is hard to guess how much fuel to buy. So somebody gets stuck with overages, or gets blamed if not enough is available.
I believe that limiting the nitro to 15% and using the honor system is the right thing for Club 40 Racing. If there is doubt about a competitor's fuel, tach it with their fuel, drain the tank and fill it with reference fuel and tach it again. If there is a 500 rpm difference, disqualify the pilot, or sell them fuel to use. These are the refinements that this thread can address.
Because of my trailer, people wanted me to carry fuel. 15% outsells the others by 4 to 1 at the minimum. Plus 15% is the standard fuel for AMA class racing.
I believe Jim Duda's suggestion for pilot supplied fuel is to keep it from being a complication for clubs hosting races. Acquiring fuel is a hassle. You have to be able to get the quantity needed. Determining the quantity needed is the catch. Unless you have a long pre-registration period, it is hard to guess how much fuel to buy. So somebody gets stuck with overages, or gets blamed if not enough is available.
I believe that limiting the nitro to 15% and using the honor system is the right thing for Club 40 Racing. If there is doubt about a competitor's fuel, tach it with their fuel, drain the tank and fill it with reference fuel and tach it again. If there is a 500 rpm difference, disqualify the pilot, or sell them fuel to use. These are the refinements that this thread can address.
03-30-2007, 07:33 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
ORIGINAL: Ed Smith
...
This is exactly how we ended up with $1000,00 Quicky airplanes and $1500.00 Q40 airplanes
Ed S
...
This is exactly how we ended up with $1000,00 Quicky airplanes and $1500.00 Q40 airplanes
Ed S
The two currently allowed airframes sell on the street for $70 and $100. The engines are $80 or less. Even if someone buys an OS 40 FX, it is still only $110 or less.
Say you go wild and by 5 rolls of covering for trim. That's $60. Even add $25 for a bladder tank. You're still under $300 minus the radio.
The REAL cost of the winning Q-500 and Q-40 planes is really closer to $1500 to $2000. Have you noticed that mostly sponsored pilots win. Well they are sponsored because they are good. But they get the benefit of top-of-the-line radio gear including $100+ servos. Someone could buy coreless digitals for a Club 40 plane and spend $700 on the in-plane radio gear. But that would just be stupid. We can't legislate intelligence. And coreless digital servos would give no advantage in a Club 40 plane. As Bob Dible says, one click of the needle valve makes more difference. We are already seeing market driven companies producing lower cost coreless digital servos. If an IMAC pilot wants to try Club 40 and has coreless digitals sitting around that he wants to use, why not let him? He may not feel comfortable with using the servos that may have been in a crash in his $5000+ IMAC plane, but doesn't care if they happen to fail in a Club 40 plane.
03-30-2007, 09:05 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Ed's point was - Those who fail to heed the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them!
and he is sooo right
]
and he is sooo right![
]
03-30-2007, 09:10 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Ed,
I have never said "STOCK, STOCK, STOCK". That is what a particular group has said and says. Yet they allow the baffle to be removed from the muffler.
I have spent considerable time figuring out all of the issues involved. I could write a (maybe) small book just on Club 40 Racing.
I don't believe that you can have a class with truly identical or "STOCK" planes. But you can have a tight "SPEC" class.
We have had differing opinions on this class since we first discussed it. Please enlighten me as to what point I missed.
Chuck, I got that point. I was getting down to specifics. People who only see a blue sky never see the ground.
I have never said "STOCK, STOCK, STOCK". That is what a particular group has said and says. Yet they allow the baffle to be removed from the muffler.
I have spent considerable time figuring out all of the issues involved. I could write a (maybe) small book just on Club 40 Racing.
I don't believe that you can have a class with truly identical or "STOCK" planes. But you can have a tight "SPEC" class.
We have had differing opinions on this class since we first discussed it. Please enlighten me as to what point I missed.
Chuck, I got that point. I was getting down to specifics. People who only see a blue sky never see the ground.
03-30-2007, 10:42 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Don seems like you started this club 40 racing so it seams that you got to set the rules or at least finalize them. Otherwise all these "what I like or what he likes" is just going around in circles. I know cause I went through it. I think one should go with one rule at a time focus on that and settle it. Sit back and look at the whole picture and see where its at and where its going. I think everyone knows that the only thing that will make this planes go with any real noticable speed is a bigger motor. Having said that, there is a lot of good suggestions that have been made that would work well within this class of racing. When people go to a race they want to know ahead of time before they get there. They don't care what the rules are they just want to know.
Like this fuel thing if it's so hard or a hassel for a club to supply the fuel and everyone brings there own, the have everyone pour half a jug of their own fuel into a 5 gallon plastic gas can and mix it all together, that way everyone uses the same fuel.
Just trying to be helpful...
Like this fuel thing if it's so hard or a hassel for a club to supply the fuel and everyone brings there own, the have everyone pour half a jug of their own fuel into a 5 gallon plastic gas can and mix it all together, that way everyone uses the same fuel.
Just trying to be helpful...
03-31-2007, 04:22 AM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
We have had differing opinions on this class since we first discussed it. Please enlighten me as to what point I missed.
Ed's point was - Those who fail to heed the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them!
and he is sooo right!
and he is sooo right!
Ed S
03-31-2007, 04:51 AM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Druce,
Interesting suggestion on the fuel. I hadn't thought of that. I will give it some thought. That is an example of thinking outside of the box that may lead to easy or easier solutions to the myriad issues that any type of competition faces.
All,
For the record, I am not promoting the use of bladder tanks as my post above may seem. I do have concerns over the use of them, and unless the stock tank can be converted for a buck or two, I'm not sure they should be allowed. So far I have had no issues with the stock tank. But that is just my experience so far.
I also have concerns about modifications. But modelers tend to have a hard time accepting something they know they can fix easily and prevent future problems.
Perhaps I should get everything I have been considering down on paper (so to speak).
Ed,
We have seen the pitfalls of the racing classes that have come before Club 40. And we must not make the same mistakes. However, our decisions and choices must be based on practical experience. It will take a little time. But it can be done.
Respectfully,
Interesting suggestion on the fuel. I hadn't thought of that. I will give it some thought. That is an example of thinking outside of the box that may lead to easy or easier solutions to the myriad issues that any type of competition faces.
All,
For the record, I am not promoting the use of bladder tanks as my post above may seem. I do have concerns over the use of them, and unless the stock tank can be converted for a buck or two, I'm not sure they should be allowed. So far I have had no issues with the stock tank. But that is just my experience so far.
I also have concerns about modifications. But modelers tend to have a hard time accepting something they know they can fix easily and prevent future problems.
Perhaps I should get everything I have been considering down on paper (so to speak).
Ed,
We have seen the pitfalls of the racing classes that have come before Club 40. And we must not make the same mistakes. However, our decisions and choices must be based on practical experience. It will take a little time. But it can be done.
Respectfully,
03-31-2007, 09:38 AM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Just to set the record straight in regards to a post above.
I'm not aware of any of the top pilots using servos at $100+
The most expensive servo I'm aware of anyone using is the Digital JR 3421 at roughly $80, and that is not used on all surfaces, normally just Elevator on Q40's. JR 3121's are still a primary servo used by many of the top guys on Quickie Elevators and ailerons and can be had for around $65.
Many Futaba guys are still using the 3002 at roughly $55, or the newer futaba digital 9650 at $55 also.
When you get to Q40 cutoffs, rudders, and Q500 throttles you are looking at servos under $40.
Also, I'm not aware of anyone with $2000 into a Q40, and $1500 into a Q500. That is simply not true.
They are definately not cheap, but lets not exaggerate.
I'm not aware of any of the top pilots using servos at $100+
The most expensive servo I'm aware of anyone using is the Digital JR 3421 at roughly $80, and that is not used on all surfaces, normally just Elevator on Q40's. JR 3121's are still a primary servo used by many of the top guys on Quickie Elevators and ailerons and can be had for around $65.
Many Futaba guys are still using the 3002 at roughly $55, or the newer futaba digital 9650 at $55 also.
When you get to Q40 cutoffs, rudders, and Q500 throttles you are looking at servos under $40.
Also, I'm not aware of anyone with $2000 into a Q40, and $1500 into a Q500. That is simply not true.
They are definately not cheap, but lets not exaggerate.
03-31-2007, 11:23 AM
#21
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Has 35 years really passed or is it still 1972? Back then new rules were written every time an old rule was violated. Racing is what it is: Unless you abide by the three Commandments that started Club 40 Racing: 1) Low-cost; 2) entry level; 3) Fun for all, the event is doomed. I attended my first Club 40 Race at ARCA a few weeks ago and I had tons of fun watching and helping in a racing event that brought back fond memories. I immediately went out and bought a SRM II and a TT .40 Pro. And I am anxious of get back into racing at a level that I think can handle. (THINK) is the key word.
Here are my thoughts on the rules. I have used Jim’s format and made changes that I believe are important.
Re-covering? Allow it - use anything you want: Toughlon - Monokote - Econocote - Solarfilm - FasCal - Silk and Dope, etc.
Fuel Tanks? Not allow replacement of tank. The only reason for tank replacement is a speed advantage. Smaller tank is less weight= faster plane.
Stock Hardware? Use any brand, metric or SAE, kit supplied and/or whatever you have available
Wheels / Landing gear? Wheels must not be smaller (diameter) or thinner (width) than stock; filing flats on landing gears for a better set screw (grub screw) bite is encouraged to prevent loss of mains and tailwheel. Steerable tailwheel is required!
Pushrods? Use anything you want BUT they must exit at the points per stock airframes...in other words, NO INTERNAL Control Horns for Rudder and Elevator
Sealing Gap surfaces? Encouraged, but not required
Cheek cowl mods? Allowed as long as they stay internal to the engine compartment area and don't change the shape of the airframe.
Wing interchangeability, Should Not be allowed. The only reason for this is a faster plane.
Servo Tray May be changed (but it is not an easy modification)
Additional Hinges Allowed - use as many as you want, mechanical or CA type
Reinforcement? Encouraged, but not required. Examples: Reinforcing wing center section; landing gear block; wing hold down blocks, etc.
Wing Bolts Nylon bolts allowed - any size. Taping over the supplied metal ones to prevent loss due to vibration highly suggested!
Muffler, engines that come with baffles must have the baffle in the muffler. The only reason for removing the baffle is a faster plane. J B Weld is just a rouse away from the baffle requirement.
Propeller Allow anything including wood props. Balancing highly recommended. I’m ok with this because it allows new guys to experiment. Some props will make your plane go faster and some will make your plane go slower. Now how do I know that?
Spinner Spinner/Prop nut highly recommended - not required. Aluminum spinner (any size) allowed. "Heavy Hub" allowed for balancing if required. Use the supplied plastic spinner at your own risk
Fuel Bring your own. Any nitro % or oil % allowed. I add oil because I want my engine to last longer.
Minimum Weight 4 lbs - 8 ounces - Ball Bearing engine, 4 lbs - 6 oz Bushing engine.
The items I have not commented on are OK with me because they relate more to dependability, reliability and durability, which all relate to Safety.
You can see where I am coming from, a set of simple rules that are easily enforceable.
Bob
Here are my thoughts on the rules. I have used Jim’s format and made changes that I believe are important.
Re-covering? Allow it - use anything you want: Toughlon - Monokote - Econocote - Solarfilm - FasCal - Silk and Dope, etc.
Fuel Tanks? Not allow replacement of tank. The only reason for tank replacement is a speed advantage. Smaller tank is less weight= faster plane.
Stock Hardware? Use any brand, metric or SAE, kit supplied and/or whatever you have available
Wheels / Landing gear? Wheels must not be smaller (diameter) or thinner (width) than stock; filing flats on landing gears for a better set screw (grub screw) bite is encouraged to prevent loss of mains and tailwheel. Steerable tailwheel is required!
Pushrods? Use anything you want BUT they must exit at the points per stock airframes...in other words, NO INTERNAL Control Horns for Rudder and Elevator
Sealing Gap surfaces? Encouraged, but not required
Cheek cowl mods? Allowed as long as they stay internal to the engine compartment area and don't change the shape of the airframe.
Wing interchangeability, Should Not be allowed. The only reason for this is a faster plane.
Servo Tray May be changed (but it is not an easy modification)
Additional Hinges Allowed - use as many as you want, mechanical or CA type
Reinforcement? Encouraged, but not required. Examples: Reinforcing wing center section; landing gear block; wing hold down blocks, etc.
Wing Bolts Nylon bolts allowed - any size. Taping over the supplied metal ones to prevent loss due to vibration highly suggested!
Muffler, engines that come with baffles must have the baffle in the muffler. The only reason for removing the baffle is a faster plane. J B Weld is just a rouse away from the baffle requirement.
Propeller Allow anything including wood props. Balancing highly recommended. I’m ok with this because it allows new guys to experiment. Some props will make your plane go faster and some will make your plane go slower. Now how do I know that?
Spinner Spinner/Prop nut highly recommended - not required. Aluminum spinner (any size) allowed. "Heavy Hub" allowed for balancing if required. Use the supplied plastic spinner at your own risk
Fuel Bring your own. Any nitro % or oil % allowed. I add oil because I want my engine to last longer.
Minimum Weight 4 lbs - 8 ounces - Ball Bearing engine, 4 lbs - 6 oz Bushing engine.
The items I have not commented on are OK with me because they relate more to dependability, reliability and durability, which all relate to Safety.
You can see where I am coming from, a set of simple rules that are easily enforceable.
Bob
03-31-2007, 12:44 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
I like oldbob's list except for the tank thingy.
Rules:
a) Airframe
1. No modifications that change the external aerodynamic drag profile of the stock model.
2. Parts may be replaced with identical pieces exactly matching the original; i.e., aileron or rudder and the like that are damaged or incorrectly manufactured. Bolts ect. as desired.
3. Any additions to the internal structure for added strength allowed as long as the external airframe is not modified.
4. Any tank you like (get real it's internal). [I have successfully modified the supplied tank to a bubbleless tank using 8 oz baby bottle inserts that cost me $9 for 250; and don't tell me the fueler is too expensive, next you'll have to say no electric fuelers and no LiPo starters.]
5. Weight between 4lbs 4oz they and 5lbs dry. (or what ever) (Mine comes in at exactly 4.5 lbs with two wing servos, I wouldn't like to make someone add weight to a stock airplane.)
6. Recovering ok.
7. Hinge lines sealed if desired.
8. Trimming of the aircraft allowed; i.e., balancing, thrust line modifications, wing incidence and wing tip weights.
b) Engine:
1. Stock ball bearing, approved list.
2. no more than 15% fuel at the descretion of the CD.
3. Any standard commonly available sport type prop, balancing allowed.
4. Spinner or prop nut type spinner.
c) Radio/servos:
1. Any aircraft AMA approved radio or servo.
SD
Rules:
a) Airframe
1. No modifications that change the external aerodynamic drag profile of the stock model.
2. Parts may be replaced with identical pieces exactly matching the original; i.e., aileron or rudder and the like that are damaged or incorrectly manufactured. Bolts ect. as desired.
3. Any additions to the internal structure for added strength allowed as long as the external airframe is not modified.
4. Any tank you like (get real it's internal). [I have successfully modified the supplied tank to a bubbleless tank using 8 oz baby bottle inserts that cost me $9 for 250; and don't tell me the fueler is too expensive, next you'll have to say no electric fuelers and no LiPo starters.]
5. Weight between 4lbs 4oz they and 5lbs dry. (or what ever) (Mine comes in at exactly 4.5 lbs with two wing servos, I wouldn't like to make someone add weight to a stock airplane.)
6. Recovering ok.
7. Hinge lines sealed if desired.
8. Trimming of the aircraft allowed; i.e., balancing, thrust line modifications, wing incidence and wing tip weights.
b) Engine:
1. Stock ball bearing, approved list.
2. no more than 15% fuel at the descretion of the CD.
3. Any standard commonly available sport type prop, balancing allowed.
4. Spinner or prop nut type spinner.
c) Radio/servos:
1. Any aircraft AMA approved radio or servo.
SD
03-31-2007, 02:09 PM
#23
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
Bob,
The wing interchangability is so that damaged parts can be used. Some will fly the LR40, some the SRM2. I had someone crash one of my LR40's and the wing survived with minimal damage. A guy at the club bumped up the wing on his SRM2. I was going to give/sell him the wing from the LR40, but since no decision had been made on this, he is going to repair his wing.
The wings are identical except for the exposed dual aileron servos on the LR40. One more rib and no torque rods.
Say a guy is at a race with an LR40 as his primary, and a SRM2 for backup. He damages the wing on one, and his stab gets chewed off on the other. He still has enough parts for a flyable plane if wing swapping is allowed. Take it further and across several races or a season. It just gives the ability to reuse parts.
The wing interchangability is so that damaged parts can be used. Some will fly the LR40, some the SRM2. I had someone crash one of my LR40's and the wing survived with minimal damage. A guy at the club bumped up the wing on his SRM2. I was going to give/sell him the wing from the LR40, but since no decision had been made on this, he is going to repair his wing.
The wings are identical except for the exposed dual aileron servos on the LR40. One more rib and no torque rods.
Say a guy is at a race with an LR40 as his primary, and a SRM2 for backup. He damages the wing on one, and his stab gets chewed off on the other. He still has enough parts for a flyable plane if wing swapping is allowed. Take it further and across several races or a season. It just gives the ability to reuse parts.
03-31-2007, 05:45 PM
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RE: Club 40 - Rules / Mod discussion
I would also require the motor to be mounted in the stock position on the stock mount. I've seen one that was lowered on a metal mount that ran pretty good.
You need to leave some wiggle room for using your brain. If you think a particular prop is better, go for it. More down thrust, go for it. Weight in the top wing, go for it. Toe in your wheels, go for it. Part of the fun of racing is to tweak. What you're suggesting is that one shouldn't be allowed to set up their airplane. Ultimately it sounds like what some of you want is that every one put their airplane in a pool and you draw lots to see which aircraft out of the pool you'll wind up flying.
SD