Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
07-14-2008, 11:39 AM
#1
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
While I have kept the 3 pole course up on my field for most of the past 6 years, I am going to change to the 2 pole course. I love flying the 3 pole course. But most of the groups flying Club 40 and Quickie 25 are using the 2 pole course.
I kind of always felt that if I could handle the 3 pole course, the 2 pole course would be easy and natural. After flying in two races in the past month on the 2 pole course I don’t believe that anymore. I had no trouble with the right pylon (#1). But my turns at the left pylon (#2) were not consistent. I either under banked and then ballooned out, or I didn’t pull as tight as I could have. Out of four heats this weekend I only flew well in one of them. And that was with the excellent calling of Tom Boyd.
The cross-over on the left pylon is not as easy as flying around #2 and #3 on a 3 pole course. Judging separation is easier on the 3 pole course. I can fly in closer proximity to other planes on the 3 pole course. Approaching #2 on a 3 pole course is easier than the approach to the left pylon on a 2 pole course. You are hundreds of feet from the pylon and getting the bank just right is more of a challenge.
The majority of sport fliers are intimidated of flying around themselves. They are not used to planes coming near them while their back is turned. I know the argument that many 3 pole racers make about safety, but the perception among the people I have seen try both is that 2 pole is more natural.
A lot of long time racers prefer the 3 pole course. Since my focus is on getting new people into racing, I am running all of the races I do as 2 pole for the time being. After guys get used to flying in close proximity to other planes and they get used to maintaining planes for race readiness I will try to get them on the 3 pole course.
I kind of always felt that if I could handle the 3 pole course, the 2 pole course would be easy and natural. After flying in two races in the past month on the 2 pole course I don’t believe that anymore. I had no trouble with the right pylon (#1). But my turns at the left pylon (#2) were not consistent. I either under banked and then ballooned out, or I didn’t pull as tight as I could have. Out of four heats this weekend I only flew well in one of them. And that was with the excellent calling of Tom Boyd.
The cross-over on the left pylon is not as easy as flying around #2 and #3 on a 3 pole course. Judging separation is easier on the 3 pole course. I can fly in closer proximity to other planes on the 3 pole course. Approaching #2 on a 3 pole course is easier than the approach to the left pylon on a 2 pole course. You are hundreds of feet from the pylon and getting the bank just right is more of a challenge.
The majority of sport fliers are intimidated of flying around themselves. They are not used to planes coming near them while their back is turned. I know the argument that many 3 pole racers make about safety, but the perception among the people I have seen try both is that 2 pole is more natural.
A lot of long time racers prefer the 3 pole course. Since my focus is on getting new people into racing, I am running all of the races I do as 2 pole for the time being. After guys get used to flying in close proximity to other planes and they get used to maintaining planes for race readiness I will try to get them on the 3 pole course.
07-14-2008, 12:19 PM
#2
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
That works fine for me.
The only thing I would do a bit diffrent is like we talked about on Saturday is to have the pilots a little closer to the right pylon.
The pilot and caller can get an easier read of distance on the right end and use the lights/flager for the far pylon to get a good feel. The pilots are also a bit safer since they are not as close to the turn coming out of the left pylon and turning away from themselves at the right end.
The only thing I would do a bit diffrent is like we talked about on Saturday is to have the pilots a little closer to the right pylon.
The pilot and caller can get an easier read of distance on the right end and use the lights/flager for the far pylon to get a good feel. The pilots are also a bit safer since they are not as close to the turn coming out of the left pylon and turning away from themselves at the right end.
07-14-2008, 01:23 PM
#3
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canyon Lake,
TX
Posts: 671
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Vic - you described exactly what we do in Texas. We "Stagger" the course to the left so that pilots are 100 ft. from the right pylon and 300 ft. from the left one. This was initially done for safety as we calculated that over 80% of all mid air incidents and / or crashes were happening at / near the left pylon.
We are using callers, but do not use turn lights or flaggers.
Are y'all using the 1 cut = 11 laps / 2 cuts = DQ or something different?
It was interesting to see the times in Club 40 were very similar to what we are getting.
Keep it up guys, this is a great sport!!!
We are using callers, but do not use turn lights or flaggers.
Are y'all using the 1 cut = 11 laps / 2 cuts = DQ or something different?
It was interesting to see the times in Club 40 were very similar to what we are getting.
Keep it up guys, this is a great sport!!!
07-14-2008, 01:52 PM
#4
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
We used 11 laps for 1 cut, DQ for 2 cuts. AMA scoring by the book.
Do you take off pointing at #1, or pointing down the runway?
Because of the grass being a little too tall we took off at a 45 across the runway, but then guys had to get pointed to #1. It wasn't optimal, but the paved area at LMS is not wide enough for 3 planes pointed down the runway.
We had turn lights at the left (#2) pylon. We had flip cards for the lap counters.
Now that things are looking up in this area, I'm going to work on a light and lap system I started years ago. It is computer based. Power used to be a problem, but when you can run a 1000 watt generator that costs less than $150 all day on 2 gallons of gas/oil, the power problem is much less of an issue.
Do you take off pointing at #1, or pointing down the runway?
Because of the grass being a little too tall we took off at a 45 across the runway, but then guys had to get pointed to #1. It wasn't optimal, but the paved area at LMS is not wide enough for 3 planes pointed down the runway.
We had turn lights at the left (#2) pylon. We had flip cards for the lap counters.
Now that things are looking up in this area, I'm going to work on a light and lap system I started years ago. It is computer based. Power used to be a problem, but when you can run a 1000 watt generator that costs less than $150 all day on 2 gallons of gas/oil, the power problem is much less of an issue.
07-14-2008, 02:01 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dickson,
TN
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Greetings from Nashville;
Just some comments on my two-pole racing experiences:
I've flown in two-pole races over 20 times in the last two years. I've flown three-pole maybe six or seven times during the same time period. All my prior pylon was on three-pole courses. I like both, but my opportunities lately are mostly are on two-pole courses. I fly whatever is within reasonable driving distances for me anymore.
I've found that I like two-pole just as much as three-pole. I find that I can much more easily manage keeping separated from the other traffic around me. I can plan my "attack" or "defense" as the heat unfolds. I have a much better picture of the entire race. I can see if I'm gaining or losing ground to other planes much more easily. In three-pole, I'm only seeing the race through a tiny key-hole, so to speak.
One thing I really like about two-pole is that I don't need a caller to tell me when to turn. I can see exactly when to turn all by myself. Therefore, I can ask just about anyone to "call" for me - - it's not at all necessary for me to have the same caller all the time like in three-pole. My impromptu caller just helps me start and handle the plane prior to take-off, gives me a count-down for the flying start, advises me about various things during the race (laps, cuts, etc), and cycles and advises me during the landing. Thus, anyone can be my "caller" with no disadvantage to me, and I can call for anyone else on the same basis.
I race with other very experienced pylon pilots on our two-pole courses here in the Nashville and Tupelo areas. We have taken to the two-pole course very readily and the racing between the experienced pilots is really intense.
The Novice Club 40 pilots are adopting very quickly to the two-pole course. They are getting very "racy", sometimes too much so.
None of the two-pole races I've been to have ever used any kind of turning aid (lights, flags, etc) at either pylon. They just aren't needed, it's as simple as that. With only a little practice, you can cut as closely as you want. As a matter of fact, I've found that I can judge so well that I sometimes get too "greedy". The only time that we've found judging when to turn to be a problem is when you fly the course erratically. It is necessary to fly the course consistently. Otherwise, your "sight picture" is different for every turn. It would be like standing in a different spot in a three-pole heat every lap. You wouldn't do that would you?
In all the two-pole races I've attended, I've never seen any kind of problem at the left end pylon with regards to "safety" concerns. I would agree that the leftmost pilot station should not be to the left of the "half way" line of the course though; let's not tempt fate in any case.
Another thing I like about two-pole is that it is not necessary to spend time walking back and forth between the pits and the pilot stations way out there inside the three pole triangle. We can cycle the heats very quickly in two-pole. By the time the last plane from the previous heat is back on the ground, we can have the next heat all ready in place and ready to start.
As to the whether flying the left pylon is harder or easier than (or even different from) flying the right pylon; after you gain a little more experience, you will be able to do both equally well. It's kind of like landings. When you first were learning to fly RC, you probably felt more at ease landing from one direction or the other. Then later, you practiced landing from both directions and then became proficient at both (didn't you?). I don't even notice a difference between flying one pylon over the other.
Flying the two-pole course is neither more nor less difficult than the three-pole course - - just different. Each requires certain skills and techniques. As in any form of racing, practice, practice, practice.
Doug Bebensee
Just some comments on my two-pole racing experiences:
I've flown in two-pole races over 20 times in the last two years. I've flown three-pole maybe six or seven times during the same time period. All my prior pylon was on three-pole courses. I like both, but my opportunities lately are mostly are on two-pole courses. I fly whatever is within reasonable driving distances for me anymore.
I've found that I like two-pole just as much as three-pole. I find that I can much more easily manage keeping separated from the other traffic around me. I can plan my "attack" or "defense" as the heat unfolds. I have a much better picture of the entire race. I can see if I'm gaining or losing ground to other planes much more easily. In three-pole, I'm only seeing the race through a tiny key-hole, so to speak.
One thing I really like about two-pole is that I don't need a caller to tell me when to turn. I can see exactly when to turn all by myself. Therefore, I can ask just about anyone to "call" for me - - it's not at all necessary for me to have the same caller all the time like in three-pole. My impromptu caller just helps me start and handle the plane prior to take-off, gives me a count-down for the flying start, advises me about various things during the race (laps, cuts, etc), and cycles and advises me during the landing. Thus, anyone can be my "caller" with no disadvantage to me, and I can call for anyone else on the same basis.
I race with other very experienced pylon pilots on our two-pole courses here in the Nashville and Tupelo areas. We have taken to the two-pole course very readily and the racing between the experienced pilots is really intense.
The Novice Club 40 pilots are adopting very quickly to the two-pole course. They are getting very "racy", sometimes too much so.
None of the two-pole races I've been to have ever used any kind of turning aid (lights, flags, etc) at either pylon. They just aren't needed, it's as simple as that. With only a little practice, you can cut as closely as you want. As a matter of fact, I've found that I can judge so well that I sometimes get too "greedy". The only time that we've found judging when to turn to be a problem is when you fly the course erratically. It is necessary to fly the course consistently. Otherwise, your "sight picture" is different for every turn. It would be like standing in a different spot in a three-pole heat every lap. You wouldn't do that would you?
In all the two-pole races I've attended, I've never seen any kind of problem at the left end pylon with regards to "safety" concerns. I would agree that the leftmost pilot station should not be to the left of the "half way" line of the course though; let's not tempt fate in any case.
Another thing I like about two-pole is that it is not necessary to spend time walking back and forth between the pits and the pilot stations way out there inside the three pole triangle. We can cycle the heats very quickly in two-pole. By the time the last plane from the previous heat is back on the ground, we can have the next heat all ready in place and ready to start.
As to the whether flying the left pylon is harder or easier than (or even different from) flying the right pylon; after you gain a little more experience, you will be able to do both equally well. It's kind of like landings. When you first were learning to fly RC, you probably felt more at ease landing from one direction or the other. Then later, you practiced landing from both directions and then became proficient at both (didn't you?). I don't even notice a difference between flying one pylon over the other.
Flying the two-pole course is neither more nor less difficult than the three-pole course - - just different. Each requires certain skills and techniques. As in any form of racing, practice, practice, practice.
Doug Bebensee
07-14-2008, 03:34 PM
#6
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Practice, practice, practice ...
That's why I'm changing my field from 3 pole to 2 pole.
It seems like all I do on my field is fly the 3 pole course. And I stay in a bank all the time, even with the slower planes like the Club 40's and 424's. I control my line using aileron, elevator, and rudder. Rudder more for altitude adjustments and elevator with banking for directional control.
This works fine on the 2 pole course when going from right to left. But after I make the left pylon turn I can't fly in a bank from left to right looking at the bottom of the plane. I can't keep my directional control so I come out of the bank.
The better pilots like James Barr, Jim Katz, and John Gibson don't seem to have any problem. James turned a blistering 1:10 with his 424 plane. But even he mentioned that if he gets out of shape it takes a couple of laps to get back in the groove.
I occaisionally fly a good 2 pole heat. But if I get out of shape early on, I really pay for it.
Chuck, you're right. This is exciting. A number of guys are really pumped up around here. Hopefully that will translate into even more entries. But I don't know how you guys in Texas do it. Once a month is about all I can handle.
The solid color LA Racer 40 ARF kits arrived today. I will post pictures when I get home.
That's why I'm changing my field from 3 pole to 2 pole.
It seems like all I do on my field is fly the 3 pole course. And I stay in a bank all the time, even with the slower planes like the Club 40's and 424's. I control my line using aileron, elevator, and rudder. Rudder more for altitude adjustments and elevator with banking for directional control.
This works fine on the 2 pole course when going from right to left. But after I make the left pylon turn I can't fly in a bank from left to right looking at the bottom of the plane. I can't keep my directional control so I come out of the bank.
The better pilots like James Barr, Jim Katz, and John Gibson don't seem to have any problem. James turned a blistering 1:10 with his 424 plane. But even he mentioned that if he gets out of shape it takes a couple of laps to get back in the groove.
I occaisionally fly a good 2 pole heat. But if I get out of shape early on, I really pay for it.
Chuck, you're right. This is exciting. A number of guys are really pumped up around here. Hopefully that will translate into even more entries. But I don't know how you guys in Texas do it. Once a month is about all I can handle.
The solid color LA Racer 40 ARF kits arrived today. I will post pictures when I get home.
07-14-2008, 04:31 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Richland, WA TX
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Don,
Instead of reinventing the wheel, why don't you take a look at what Hank Kauffmann and I have done with the Judgeman program and Hank's wire-less modems. I am using RS232 cables in my system to keep the cost down. Hank has developed boards that display the laps and cuts for each lane with LEDs bright enough for the starter and pilots/callers to see in the direct sun.
These boards can be wired in parallel. Our system in Austin will have two sets of boards. One set for the pilot station and the other for the lap counters and interested spectators. Both sets will display the same info. There is a simple circuit/box that replaces the wire-less modems and if we ever decide to go wire-less all our displays will work by replacing the RS232 box (same boards as at the NATS and Speedworld.)
The timing program records every lap for every lane as well as cuts and at which pylon in an ini file. At the end of a heat the heat can be printed out for examination by the officials for errors and finalizing. The program determines the finish order, but can be over ridden by the operator. Between heats you go go backwards and review previous heats by clicking a back arrow. At the end of the race you have the lap by lap record of every heat.
There is an audio 60 second count down option that can be fed into a PA system for in-air starts, configurable lane color assignments and lots more. The software has been evolving for several years now and is being used at some of the major races including the second year at the NATS.
For my RS232 version we are using a $19 Logitek USB programmable controller mounted in a box with phono jacks for the lane laps and pylon station cuts. I had to do this because the wire-less version controls these functions from various judging stations on the field. We still radio in cuts, but it would be pretty simple to run cables to the cut judges and have simple relays for amplifiers. I will run an RS232 cable 70' to pilot station.
By using the Judgeman program I think you can contribute to making it even better. Plus if everyone has similar displays we can swap or borrow for various races. If our displays are the same there could be a spare at a contest or another display set up some where for the spectators etc.
Did I mention the displays will also do the count down?
There is also some talk about sensors in aircraft to do the laps and cuts with out humans and some effort has been expended and prototyped.
Something to think about anyway. The program is down loadable from the NMPRA site. Jim Allen is currently working on a manual, but I can assist you in getting started. It has a manual mode that allows you run it with the mouse.
Stan D
Instead of reinventing the wheel, why don't you take a look at what Hank Kauffmann and I have done with the Judgeman program and Hank's wire-less modems. I am using RS232 cables in my system to keep the cost down. Hank has developed boards that display the laps and cuts for each lane with LEDs bright enough for the starter and pilots/callers to see in the direct sun.
These boards can be wired in parallel. Our system in Austin will have two sets of boards. One set for the pilot station and the other for the lap counters and interested spectators. Both sets will display the same info. There is a simple circuit/box that replaces the wire-less modems and if we ever decide to go wire-less all our displays will work by replacing the RS232 box (same boards as at the NATS and Speedworld.)
The timing program records every lap for every lane as well as cuts and at which pylon in an ini file. At the end of a heat the heat can be printed out for examination by the officials for errors and finalizing. The program determines the finish order, but can be over ridden by the operator. Between heats you go go backwards and review previous heats by clicking a back arrow. At the end of the race you have the lap by lap record of every heat.
There is an audio 60 second count down option that can be fed into a PA system for in-air starts, configurable lane color assignments and lots more. The software has been evolving for several years now and is being used at some of the major races including the second year at the NATS.
For my RS232 version we are using a $19 Logitek USB programmable controller mounted in a box with phono jacks for the lane laps and pylon station cuts. I had to do this because the wire-less version controls these functions from various judging stations on the field. We still radio in cuts, but it would be pretty simple to run cables to the cut judges and have simple relays for amplifiers. I will run an RS232 cable 70' to pilot station.
By using the Judgeman program I think you can contribute to making it even better. Plus if everyone has similar displays we can swap or borrow for various races. If our displays are the same there could be a spare at a contest or another display set up some where for the spectators etc.
Did I mention the displays will also do the count down?
There is also some talk about sensors in aircraft to do the laps and cuts with out humans and some effort has been expended and prototyped.
Something to think about anyway. The program is down loadable from the NMPRA site. Jim Allen is currently working on a manual, but I can assist you in getting started. It has a manual mode that allows you run it with the mouse.
Stan D
07-14-2008, 05:50 PM
#8
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canyon Lake,
TX
Posts: 671
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Don - We usually set the course parallel to the runway and take off down the runway (grass or concrete). There is usually a turn after take off to get to #1 pylon.
Doug - We moved the course "just in case". We had several planes "get together" several years ago when we were just starting to reduce the set backs. At an early race, one of the "out of control" planes got a little close to the pilots. Since we started offsetting the course to the left, we have had no incidents that came even remotely close to any pilots of officials. It was a case of preventive medicine and has worked very well for us.
Don - do you have any info about the set ups of the club 40 racers? i.e. engines, props, fuel etc?
We are mandating 15% fuel for every one.
Doug - We moved the course "just in case". We had several planes "get together" several years ago when we were just starting to reduce the set backs. At an early race, one of the "out of control" planes got a little close to the pilots. Since we started offsetting the course to the left, we have had no incidents that came even remotely close to any pilots of officials. It was a case of preventive medicine and has worked very well for us.
Don - do you have any info about the set ups of the club 40 racers? i.e. engines, props, fuel etc?
We are mandating 15% fuel for every one.
07-14-2008, 06:12 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dickson,
TN
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Chuck;
I agree about off-setting the pilot's line; it can't hurt. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Don, have you tried the flying start in any of your races? We find that this kind of start eliminates the occasional mid-ground/air contact during or just after take-off. Most of the damage I've had to my planes during pylon races is during the start. I can hold a straight line on take-off, but others, on occasion, don't. The flying start is just another fun aspect of pylon racing we enjoy. It is a very exciting way to start a race - - it's the way they start races a Reno.
Doug Bebensee
I agree about off-setting the pilot's line; it can't hurt. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Don, have you tried the flying start in any of your races? We find that this kind of start eliminates the occasional mid-ground/air contact during or just after take-off. Most of the damage I've had to my planes during pylon races is during the start. I can hold a straight line on take-off, but others, on occasion, don't. The flying start is just another fun aspect of pylon racing we enjoy. It is a very exciting way to start a race - - it's the way they start races a Reno.
Doug Bebensee
07-14-2008, 06:21 PM
#10
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canyon Lake,
TX
Posts: 671
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
I've tried the air start but do not like it as well as the "assisted" ground start. (full power run up with a holder) We have not had any incidents at take off since we went to this system.
07-14-2008, 06:32 PM
#11
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Doug,
We have not tried a flying start except on my field using a 3 pole course. And that was just to get everyone in the air at their own pace. We started to go to an air start on Saturday, but we didn't have a count down mechanism. And the long time racers wanted the racehorse start per the book. After I get my field reconfigured, Matthew and I will give it a try.
Chuck,
Everyone was running Thunder Tiger Pro 40 engines in Club 40. The majority were using APC 9x6 props, but no prop rule was enforced. I did supply Omega 15% for everyone to run. There were one or two older TT 40's with the straight needle. I felt like I could have done better with an APC 10x5 but didn't take the time to try one. I was flying wide and high and I would have had to tighten up with a lower pitch prop. In my best heats, I flew smoothly and was able to make up for my crappy starts to a degree. With a little more pull out of the turns, my times might have been a little better.
Fueling stations are one of the improvements I will make next time. People kept changing the electric fuel pump and the power panel and getting things out of sync. I think I'm going to get some Six-Shooters for the next race.
Stan,
I agree, I should look at what you guys have done. I've been too busy and just haven't really had a chance to check it out. But before I spend any money I will get more info from you, Jim, and Hank. I guess I was thinking that the system you have is more oriented to 3 pole. I'm solidly in the 2 pole camp for local racing for the time being. There just aren't any clubs around here that can (or will) host a 3 pole course. But James Barr took a hard look at the LMS site and he thinks we could do 3 pole long course there. So a system that can do both will be a requirement. I didn't think that a full system was feasible from a cost perspective. But with the excitement around here growing, and guys having a good time, I might be able to do it.
We have not tried a flying start except on my field using a 3 pole course. And that was just to get everyone in the air at their own pace. We started to go to an air start on Saturday, but we didn't have a count down mechanism. And the long time racers wanted the racehorse start per the book. After I get my field reconfigured, Matthew and I will give it a try.
Chuck,
Everyone was running Thunder Tiger Pro 40 engines in Club 40. The majority were using APC 9x6 props, but no prop rule was enforced. I did supply Omega 15% for everyone to run. There were one or two older TT 40's with the straight needle. I felt like I could have done better with an APC 10x5 but didn't take the time to try one. I was flying wide and high and I would have had to tighten up with a lower pitch prop. In my best heats, I flew smoothly and was able to make up for my crappy starts to a degree. With a little more pull out of the turns, my times might have been a little better.
Fueling stations are one of the improvements I will make next time. People kept changing the electric fuel pump and the power panel and getting things out of sync. I think I'm going to get some Six-Shooters for the next race.
Stan,
I agree, I should look at what you guys have done. I've been too busy and just haven't really had a chance to check it out. But before I spend any money I will get more info from you, Jim, and Hank. I guess I was thinking that the system you have is more oriented to 3 pole. I'm solidly in the 2 pole camp for local racing for the time being. There just aren't any clubs around here that can (or will) host a 3 pole course. But James Barr took a hard look at the LMS site and he thinks we could do 3 pole long course there. So a system that can do both will be a requirement. I didn't think that a full system was feasible from a cost perspective. But with the excitement around here growing, and guys having a good time, I might be able to do it.
07-14-2008, 07:01 PM
#12
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canyon Lake,
TX
Posts: 671
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Sounds like every thing went pretty well.
I usually open 2 gallons of fuel. One with a manual fuel pump and one with a Jett Tanker for those with bubbless tanks.
Try the 10x5. It will get off the ground better and keep up speed in the turns a little better.
I usually open 2 gallons of fuel. One with a manual fuel pump and one with a Jett Tanker for those with bubbless tanks.
Try the 10x5. It will get off the ground better and keep up speed in the turns a little better.
07-15-2008, 04:24 AM
#13
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Chuck,
There are several things I will do for the next race to make it better. We printed entry forms before the contest. Every contestant had to fill one out. I tried to find some cheap clipboards on Friday night thinking the dollar stores would have them. They didn't. But I will have at least 5-6 clipboards the next time. The clipboards come in handy for holding the heat sheets both at the lap counter station and at the scoring computer.
I will have at least 2 gallons of fuel with Dave Brown Six Shooters on them at the next race. Plus one gallon for syringes. Everyone knows how to use the Six Shooter and I don't have to worry about charging anything.
I had a tent for the scoring computer, registration, and the raffle. I also had another tent that got put into service for the lap counters. I will have 2 more tents for the next race for the #1 judge and the #2 turn judges with coolers of bottled water at all of the worker tents. I baked when I was judging #1 and pushing the button at #2. I had folding chairs for the lap counters. I will have chairs for all of the judges next time.
I know most groups are not using turn lights on #2, the left pylon. But the competitors/callers at the 6-14 race liked the flaggers, and they liked the lights at the 7-12 race even better. I think the big thing was that they were using the lights to know if they cut without trying to watch the lap counters. The light system we used is pretty simple. There is one switch per lane and one light per lane. Pressing the switch turns the light on for 2 seconds. It does require additional workers, but as much as the callers liked it, I will have lights at the 8-16 race. If James Barr can't make it, I will have another system. I want to have lights that have the turn light, a single cut light, and a double cut light at some point.
My entry fees have been a little higher than some of the groups. At $15 per event, I have some room to use the proceeds towards improved equipment at future races. Instead of having prizes for first place like I did on 6-14, we did a pilots raffle, where each pilot got one ticket per event entered. The pilots raffle prize was an LA Racer 40 ARF kit. We also had an open raffle for an LA Racer 40 and a P-51 Mustang EP. The spectators and pilots got in on that raffle.
Using the wing stickers on the 2 pole course helped move things along. When you run 3 classes in one day, you have to keep things moving. It is easier on the 2 pole course not having people needing to move big distances to get ready. Our biggest challenge time-wise was keeping the course worker positions staffed. The heat and sun was so bad that people wanted to retreat to their tents. And I don't blame them.
At least one competitor's tent had a generator and fan. My wife really liked that idea. If I can pick up some more of these 1000 watt generators for under $150 each, I will probably get one or two more. So I will be watching the Northern Tool weekly fliers. This week a couple of places have tents (aka canopies) on sale.
Thanks to everyone who attended to the 7-12 race, and thanks to you guys from the other clubs and areas with your input and encouragement.
There are several things I will do for the next race to make it better. We printed entry forms before the contest. Every contestant had to fill one out. I tried to find some cheap clipboards on Friday night thinking the dollar stores would have them. They didn't. But I will have at least 5-6 clipboards the next time. The clipboards come in handy for holding the heat sheets both at the lap counter station and at the scoring computer.
I will have at least 2 gallons of fuel with Dave Brown Six Shooters on them at the next race. Plus one gallon for syringes. Everyone knows how to use the Six Shooter and I don't have to worry about charging anything.
I had a tent for the scoring computer, registration, and the raffle. I also had another tent that got put into service for the lap counters. I will have 2 more tents for the next race for the #1 judge and the #2 turn judges with coolers of bottled water at all of the worker tents. I baked when I was judging #1 and pushing the button at #2. I had folding chairs for the lap counters. I will have chairs for all of the judges next time.
I know most groups are not using turn lights on #2, the left pylon. But the competitors/callers at the 6-14 race liked the flaggers, and they liked the lights at the 7-12 race even better. I think the big thing was that they were using the lights to know if they cut without trying to watch the lap counters. The light system we used is pretty simple. There is one switch per lane and one light per lane. Pressing the switch turns the light on for 2 seconds. It does require additional workers, but as much as the callers liked it, I will have lights at the 8-16 race. If James Barr can't make it, I will have another system. I want to have lights that have the turn light, a single cut light, and a double cut light at some point.
My entry fees have been a little higher than some of the groups. At $15 per event, I have some room to use the proceeds towards improved equipment at future races. Instead of having prizes for first place like I did on 6-14, we did a pilots raffle, where each pilot got one ticket per event entered. The pilots raffle prize was an LA Racer 40 ARF kit. We also had an open raffle for an LA Racer 40 and a P-51 Mustang EP. The spectators and pilots got in on that raffle.
Using the wing stickers on the 2 pole course helped move things along. When you run 3 classes in one day, you have to keep things moving. It is easier on the 2 pole course not having people needing to move big distances to get ready. Our biggest challenge time-wise was keeping the course worker positions staffed. The heat and sun was so bad that people wanted to retreat to their tents. And I don't blame them.
At least one competitor's tent had a generator and fan. My wife really liked that idea. If I can pick up some more of these 1000 watt generators for under $150 each, I will probably get one or two more. So I will be watching the Northern Tool weekly fliers. This week a couple of places have tents (aka canopies) on sale.
Thanks to everyone who attended to the 7-12 race, and thanks to you guys from the other clubs and areas with your input and encouragement.
07-15-2008, 08:11 AM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Richland, WA TX
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
The Judgeman program works very well for 2 pole racing. You simply don't use the cuts for pylon 3. And by locating the computer with the lap counters it makes it easy to set up without the expensive wire-less modems or long cable runs. RS232 doesn't work well over 80' to 100'.
I put an audio count down in the Judgeman program to support Warbird racing. Paul Herman supplied me with the actual audio. The audio works better than a visual count down because the pilots need not take their eyes off the aircraft. Paul also uses the same audio with a tape player. The only problem with it right now is I don't have a mechanism to hold the audio count. So you have to restart it from 60 seconds. When I find the time I plan to break the audio file into segments so that you can either reset to 60 seconds or hold at some lesser count.
Stan D.
We have not tried a flying start except on my field using a 3 pole course. And that was just to get everyone in the air at their own pace. We started to go to an air start on Saturday, but we didn't have a count down mechanism.
Stan D.
07-15-2008, 10:17 AM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dickson,
TN
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Don and All;
I'd like to express a few more opinions regarding Club 40 two-pole racing:
I think we need to step back and take a good look at the original intention of Club 40 two-pole racing. The way I see it, it was primarily to provide an entry level racing event (Novice class) that was inexpensive, within the skill set of the average sport pilot, would provide a stable level playing field, would fit in with most smaller fields, require fewer helpers, and in general not burden the hosting club too much. The hope was that many of these new-to-pylon Club 40 pilots would move up to other more rigorous pylon events such as 424 and beyond. This would help everyone in the long run.
Secondarily, this event was to provide racing opportunities for those who had some experience (Advanced class), were returning to pylon, or just didn't want to travel and compete at the AMA events levels.
It is my strong opinion that in some cases, we're drifting away from the KISS concept that is central to the Club 40 movement. It seems that in some cases we're using technology just because we can, and not because we actually need it.
For someone who is considering getting into Club 40, or for someone at some club somewhere who is considering organizing and hosting their very first race, I think after viewing the posts on this thread he would be of the opinion that "that's way too much stuff to go through - - forgedaboudit". Computers (along with competent operators), printers, generators, turn lights, switches, wiring, modems, race programs, extra workers - - lions and tigers and bears - Oh my!
Having said all this, I can certainly appreciate the technology and effort those of you have put into this kind of thing, but I think it is overkill for Club 40; especially when it comes to start-up situations. For more mature venues where there are lots of pilots and helpers, then it certainly can be of benefit.
At our Club 40 races that I CD here in Nashville, the highest technological marvels we use are simple hand-held thumb operated mechanical counting devices for the lap counting. We don't even time the planes! (Oh no, say it isn't so). We provide shade tents and chairs for all workers, and they get free food and drinks all day. Also, we have a raffle for a couple nice prizes or gift certificates for the workers after each race. Our Nashville Club 40 is a start-up situation and I have to be careful to keep it "easy" and fun for the club, pilots, and workers. Later, if our numbers increase, I may look into some technological aids to running the races, but for now, they would just slow us down.
Don, I'm seriously thinking of coming to your Aug 16 race at Lowe's. I would be entering C-40 and 424. So far there is no other race conflict. My final decision will probably depend on the weather; it's a long way for me.
We have another Club 40 start-up in Columbia TN, about 30 miles southwest of Nashville. Also, it looks good for another Club 40 start-up just north of Huntsville AL. My goal for us is to eventually have about two races (of various kinds) a month all within 2-3 hrs drive all spring summer and fall. We are well on our way to this goal.
Keep up the good work everyone,
Doug Bebensee
I'd like to express a few more opinions regarding Club 40 two-pole racing:
I think we need to step back and take a good look at the original intention of Club 40 two-pole racing. The way I see it, it was primarily to provide an entry level racing event (Novice class) that was inexpensive, within the skill set of the average sport pilot, would provide a stable level playing field, would fit in with most smaller fields, require fewer helpers, and in general not burden the hosting club too much. The hope was that many of these new-to-pylon Club 40 pilots would move up to other more rigorous pylon events such as 424 and beyond. This would help everyone in the long run.
Secondarily, this event was to provide racing opportunities for those who had some experience (Advanced class), were returning to pylon, or just didn't want to travel and compete at the AMA events levels.
It is my strong opinion that in some cases, we're drifting away from the KISS concept that is central to the Club 40 movement. It seems that in some cases we're using technology just because we can, and not because we actually need it.
For someone who is considering getting into Club 40, or for someone at some club somewhere who is considering organizing and hosting their very first race, I think after viewing the posts on this thread he would be of the opinion that "that's way too much stuff to go through - - forgedaboudit". Computers (along with competent operators), printers, generators, turn lights, switches, wiring, modems, race programs, extra workers - - lions and tigers and bears - Oh my!
Having said all this, I can certainly appreciate the technology and effort those of you have put into this kind of thing, but I think it is overkill for Club 40; especially when it comes to start-up situations. For more mature venues where there are lots of pilots and helpers, then it certainly can be of benefit.
At our Club 40 races that I CD here in Nashville, the highest technological marvels we use are simple hand-held thumb operated mechanical counting devices for the lap counting. We don't even time the planes! (Oh no, say it isn't so). We provide shade tents and chairs for all workers, and they get free food and drinks all day. Also, we have a raffle for a couple nice prizes or gift certificates for the workers after each race. Our Nashville Club 40 is a start-up situation and I have to be careful to keep it "easy" and fun for the club, pilots, and workers. Later, if our numbers increase, I may look into some technological aids to running the races, but for now, they would just slow us down.
Don, I'm seriously thinking of coming to your Aug 16 race at Lowe's. I would be entering C-40 and 424. So far there is no other race conflict. My final decision will probably depend on the weather; it's a long way for me.
We have another Club 40 start-up in Columbia TN, about 30 miles southwest of Nashville. Also, it looks good for another Club 40 start-up just north of Huntsville AL. My goal for us is to eventually have about two races (of various kinds) a month all within 2-3 hrs drive all spring summer and fall. We are well on our way to this goal.
Keep up the good work everyone,
Doug Bebensee
07-15-2008, 10:59 AM
#16
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Doug,
I understand where you are coming from. I have considered moving my comments out of the Club 40 forum for the very reasons you give.
In my case I'm running Club 40, Quickie 25, and AMA 424 at the Lowe's races. Partially because of all the classes, and partially because of the venue, I'm trying to make the races as sophisticated as I can. My expenses on technology have been minimal though. I already had the laptop. I did buy a $50 inkjet printer just for the races and I bought a 1000 watt generator for $120 from Northern Tool.
The 6-14 race was laid back and low on technology. Flags and hand generated matrixes.
I have a technology savvy 13 year old son and I got him to learn the NMPRA Race program. He learned it in one or two days. He knows the program as well or better than I do in many respects now. He worked out the procedures and even produced the entry form. He did find out that entering the data from scratch on race day is a little challenging. But we had guys flying in multiple classes. So it made it a little easier to get the pilots entered. But generating 3 matrixes with a range of frequency conflicts was easy on the computer.
James Barr already had the light system and lap counting cards from some 424 efforts. It added a nice level of sophistication to the race. Both the newcomers and the long time racers were satisfied by the equipment and race procedures. The wing stickers were new for most everyone, but people got the idea real quick.
It is fun just flying Club 40 planes. I love the simple planes and the simple rules. The races are even more fun, at any level of sophistication. Even if it is just throwing up two poles and flying around them.
My personal goal is to be able to run races from simple Club 40 on 2 poles to RCPRO Warbird Racing to Quarter 40 on the 3 pole long course. I let that cross over into this forum, and I probably shouldn't have. But the excitement level around here is high and I got caught up in it.
I understand where you are coming from. I have considered moving my comments out of the Club 40 forum for the very reasons you give.
In my case I'm running Club 40, Quickie 25, and AMA 424 at the Lowe's races. Partially because of all the classes, and partially because of the venue, I'm trying to make the races as sophisticated as I can. My expenses on technology have been minimal though. I already had the laptop. I did buy a $50 inkjet printer just for the races and I bought a 1000 watt generator for $120 from Northern Tool.
The 6-14 race was laid back and low on technology. Flags and hand generated matrixes.
I have a technology savvy 13 year old son and I got him to learn the NMPRA Race program. He learned it in one or two days. He knows the program as well or better than I do in many respects now. He worked out the procedures and even produced the entry form. He did find out that entering the data from scratch on race day is a little challenging. But we had guys flying in multiple classes. So it made it a little easier to get the pilots entered. But generating 3 matrixes with a range of frequency conflicts was easy on the computer.
James Barr already had the light system and lap counting cards from some 424 efforts. It added a nice level of sophistication to the race. Both the newcomers and the long time racers were satisfied by the equipment and race procedures. The wing stickers were new for most everyone, but people got the idea real quick.
It is fun just flying Club 40 planes. I love the simple planes and the simple rules. The races are even more fun, at any level of sophistication. Even if it is just throwing up two poles and flying around them.
My personal goal is to be able to run races from simple Club 40 on 2 poles to RCPRO Warbird Racing to Quarter 40 on the 3 pole long course. I let that cross over into this forum, and I probably shouldn't have. But the excitement level around here is high and I got caught up in it.
07-15-2008, 11:18 AM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Austin,
TX
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
I have to agree that keeping Club 40 simple is the key to its success. That being said, it sure is nice to have the computer program to set up the matrices, keep points, etc.. (thanks Stan!).
One thing that I enjoy having is the time for each heat. It gives you good feedback on your progress in the sport. I remember that at the beginning of last year, the winning times were somewhere in the mid 1:30s. That time is now probably closer to the average. You need to run right around 1:30 to win these days, with the fast time for the day usually set between 1:27 and 1:29. Keeping time doesn't require any extra workers either; the lap counters can punch the stopwatch buttons.
Tim
One thing that I enjoy having is the time for each heat. It gives you good feedback on your progress in the sport. I remember that at the beginning of last year, the winning times were somewhere in the mid 1:30s. That time is now probably closer to the average. You need to run right around 1:30 to win these days, with the fast time for the day usually set between 1:27 and 1:29. Keeping time doesn't require any extra workers either; the lap counters can punch the stopwatch buttons.
Tim
07-15-2008, 12:23 PM
#18
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Here is the beauty of using a computer for scoring.
[link=http://www.rcpro.org/net/uploads/attachments/t766_m6_n1.html]Club 40 Heat results[/link]
Many guys were coming up and asking for times. We will print results during the races when we use the computer again.
[link=http://www.rcpro.org/net/uploads/attachments/t766_m6_n1.html]Club 40 Heat results[/link]
Many guys were coming up and asking for times. We will print results during the races when we use the computer again.
07-17-2008, 09:38 PM
#19
My Feedback: (13)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mebane,
NC
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
I would agree that keeping time, as opposed to just determining the finishing order, is very worthwhile! It lets you see if you are improving from heat to heat, and from race to race. Seeing that you are making progress is a great motivator, and it's easier to see how you stand vs. the other competitors that you didn't happen to race against in the same heat. Take a look at the Club 40 fast times. You will see that the racing was very, very tight. There are just over 2.5 seconds spread between the 1st and 4th place finisher's fast times, or in other words, an average of barely 1/4 second difference per lap. That's a difference you simply can't judge easily by eye from one heat to the next; if it weren't for the stopwatches, you would only really be able to see it within a heat.
07-18-2008, 04:41 PM
#20
My Feedback: (15)
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
"One thing I really like about two-pole is that I don't need a caller to tell me when to turn. I can see exactly when to turn all by myself. Therefore, I can ask just about anyone to "call" for me - - it's not at all necessary for me to have the same caller all the time like in three-pole. My impromptu caller just helps me start and handle the plane prior to take-off, gives me a count-down for the flying start, advises me about various things during the race (laps, cuts, etc), and cycles and advises me during the landing. Thus, anyone can be my "caller" with no disadvantage to me, and I can call for anyone else on the same basis."
We race 3-pole locally and callers are not critical to three-pole like you state. Almost everyone has their own internal cadence and the caller can help you if you get out of sinc. I think the nationally competitive racers like to have the same caller for other reasons than simply telling them when to turn. Like I said, most racers know when to turn (by timing, not by depth percetion). Great callers will tell you who has cuts, where those that have cuts are in relation to you, which lap you are on, etc. all while giving you a count to correlate your internal count with. At our local races, I will ask anyone to "call" for me, which really means launch me, tell me who has cuts, and don't let anyone smash into my body while I'm looking at my own plane. I use my own cadence to decide when to turn.
Kurt
We race 3-pole locally and callers are not critical to three-pole like you state. Almost everyone has their own internal cadence and the caller can help you if you get out of sinc. I think the nationally competitive racers like to have the same caller for other reasons than simply telling them when to turn. Like I said, most racers know when to turn (by timing, not by depth percetion). Great callers will tell you who has cuts, where those that have cuts are in relation to you, which lap you are on, etc. all while giving you a count to correlate your internal count with. At our local races, I will ask anyone to "call" for me, which really means launch me, tell me who has cuts, and don't let anyone smash into my body while I'm looking at my own plane. I use my own cadence to decide when to turn.
Kurt
07-20-2008, 03:03 PM
#21
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Dave Glasscock came over to my house and field today. I gave him a tour of my shop and showed him some of my molds and projects.
He brought his OS 40 LA powered Sky Raider Mach II and put some laps on the newly configured 2 pole course. I had felt the poles were a little too far out, and too close to the trees. Dave confirmed this and even though he was getting used to the trees, I moved the pylons in about 40 feet. He started flying a much better line with some practice. Plus he flew some of my other planes and got used to the tightness of the field.
Before he left I flew a Club 40 Advanced plane. I tighted up and started flying better. But I was still ballooning out of #2 some of the time.
After he left I flew 3 more times. Each time I got more and more used to the course. I almost hit the pylons several times. And had a few worm burners because I was flying so low.
I will get some serious practice in before the 8-16 race at Lowe's Motor Speedway, and I might even have a chance again my son Matthew. But he will probably get out and practice more than me and still beat me.
Sim time and real 2 pole course time ... Barr, look out. I'm coming for ya' baby.
I sent Dave home with a partially built Dominator. He's a builder and I think he's hooked on pylon racing. What a combo.
He brought his OS 40 LA powered Sky Raider Mach II and put some laps on the newly configured 2 pole course. I had felt the poles were a little too far out, and too close to the trees. Dave confirmed this and even though he was getting used to the trees, I moved the pylons in about 40 feet. He started flying a much better line with some practice. Plus he flew some of my other planes and got used to the tightness of the field.
Before he left I flew a Club 40 Advanced plane. I tighted up and started flying better. But I was still ballooning out of #2 some of the time.
After he left I flew 3 more times. Each time I got more and more used to the course. I almost hit the pylons several times. And had a few worm burners because I was flying so low.
I will get some serious practice in before the 8-16 race at Lowe's Motor Speedway, and I might even have a chance again my son Matthew. But he will probably get out and practice more than me and still beat me.
Sim time and real 2 pole course time ... Barr, look out. I'm coming for ya' baby.
I sent Dave home with a partially built Dominator. He's a builder and I think he's hooked on pylon racing. What a combo.
07-28-2008, 01:21 PM
#22
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
I'm still trying to get some interest up here in So CA for club racing. I have a couple of questions.
Do most of you do a flying start? If not, how do you start the race?
How do you handle cuts. In RCPRO warbird racing, if you have one cut you drop to one point, two cut and you get zero. I don't understand how you work the 11 lap thing. Do the pylon judges indicate some how when some one cuts during the race? How do you know which plane was the offender?
Thanks, Terry
Do most of you do a flying start? If not, how do you start the race?
How do you handle cuts. In RCPRO warbird racing, if you have one cut you drop to one point, two cut and you get zero. I don't understand how you work the 11 lap thing. Do the pylon judges indicate some how when some one cuts during the race? How do you know which plane was the offender?
Thanks, Terry
07-28-2008, 01:51 PM
#23
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MonroeNorth Carolina
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
Terry,
Different groups are doing it different ways. I'm using the AMA 3 pole scoring and lap counting system as outlined in the AMA rules ... see [link]http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/RC%20Racing.pdf[/link]. We also used turn judges for each lane on the left/#2 pylon. We called in cuts based on the wing stickers. That is actually a deviation from the AMA 2 pole procedures. It is a challenge to make it work smoothly. However, it works for guys used to 3 pole racing. I happen to have the interest of guys that know the AMA lap counting and scoring system.
If you have people trained in a particular method, I would use the method that works for your group. Just substitute the lower cost and slower planes. If you do Club 40, I recommend you go with the 400' 2 pole course though. Times would be very long and heats would last forever on a 700' course. But if using the longer course works for your facilities, give it a try.
The regret factor is very low for Club 40. Often the engine and radio survives a crash. It is very affordable racing. The benefit is that guys get used to maintaining planes for race readiness, then they want to go faster. They can still have fun with Club 40 even after they "graduate" because the fun factor is very high.
RCPRO Warbird Racing seems to be a lot of fun. But for people not ready for that kind of commitment, Club 40 is great for monthly or bi-weekly racing (at different venues).
Different groups are doing it different ways. I'm using the AMA 3 pole scoring and lap counting system as outlined in the AMA rules ... see [link]http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/rulebooks/RC%20Racing.pdf[/link]. We also used turn judges for each lane on the left/#2 pylon. We called in cuts based on the wing stickers. That is actually a deviation from the AMA 2 pole procedures. It is a challenge to make it work smoothly. However, it works for guys used to 3 pole racing. I happen to have the interest of guys that know the AMA lap counting and scoring system.
If you have people trained in a particular method, I would use the method that works for your group. Just substitute the lower cost and slower planes. If you do Club 40, I recommend you go with the 400' 2 pole course though. Times would be very long and heats would last forever on a 700' course. But if using the longer course works for your facilities, give it a try.
The regret factor is very low for Club 40. Often the engine and radio survives a crash. It is very affordable racing. The benefit is that guys get used to maintaining planes for race readiness, then they want to go faster. They can still have fun with Club 40 even after they "graduate" because the fun factor is very high.
RCPRO Warbird Racing seems to be a lot of fun. But for people not ready for that kind of commitment, Club 40 is great for monthly or bi-weekly racing (at different venues).
07-28-2008, 03:04 PM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dickson,
TN
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
still4given;
We here in Nashville have a very simple form of scoring. We use a two-pole course and a flying start. We have four lap counters (in-line with the start/finish line), two pylon judges, and a starter (and maybe a starter's assistant). Everyone is off-course. We race 10 laps, period. We record the absolute finish order with the 1st place plane getting 4 pts, 2nd place - 3 pts, 3rd place - 2 pts, and 4th place - 1 pt (or 3,2,1 points for three-plane heats; or 2,1 points for two-plane heats). THEN, we deduct one point if you jump the start and one point per cut. You can't go below zero points in a heat. The others in the heat do not move up if someone above gets a cut. Thus the scoring is VERY easy to figure and record on the heat sheets. At the end of the day, it's just a matter of adding a bunch of single-digit numbers for each pilot to determine his total (a five minute job). The highest total score of the day wins. We use very simple forms and no computer. We also use the wing marking labels as Don mentioned. Wing marking labels are especially helpful for Skyraider Mk IIs and LA Racers because many of them are factory covered almost the same.
Doug Bebensee
We here in Nashville have a very simple form of scoring. We use a two-pole course and a flying start. We have four lap counters (in-line with the start/finish line), two pylon judges, and a starter (and maybe a starter's assistant). Everyone is off-course. We race 10 laps, period. We record the absolute finish order with the 1st place plane getting 4 pts, 2nd place - 3 pts, 3rd place - 2 pts, and 4th place - 1 pt (or 3,2,1 points for three-plane heats; or 2,1 points for two-plane heats). THEN, we deduct one point if you jump the start and one point per cut. You can't go below zero points in a heat. The others in the heat do not move up if someone above gets a cut. Thus the scoring is VERY easy to figure and record on the heat sheets. At the end of the day, it's just a matter of adding a bunch of single-digit numbers for each pilot to determine his total (a five minute job). The highest total score of the day wins. We use very simple forms and no computer. We also use the wing marking labels as Don mentioned. Wing marking labels are especially helpful for Skyraider Mk IIs and LA Racers because many of them are factory covered almost the same.
Doug Bebensee
03-29-2009, 10:58 AM
#25
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pampa, TX
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Making the change from 3 pole to 2 pole
I am currently trying to get pylon started up again in my area. (Panhandle of Texas). An experienced friend in a neighboring city is working with me, and another club in another nearby town has had a few Club 40 races, with limited success. I currently have a 3 pole course set up at 800 feet, but have access to expand to a larger course for the 424's, if interest is there. My basic question is about the position of the pilots with new fliers. Do you feel that flying from inside the course, be it 2 or 3 pole, is safe with inexperienced pilots? And would it really be advantageous to run 2 pylon instead of 3?