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New TT Pro 40 prop data

Old 08-03-2010, 09:16 PM
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Tbatt
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Default New TT Pro 40 prop data

Today I went out and worked with a couple of props and a new toy. The new toy is the Wing Shadow How Fast.

I made a mounting adapter that fits on the wing tip of the SRMII that encloses the How Fast unit. Total weight was .7 ounce.

Temperature 95 degrees
Humidity was 72% (awful)

15% Mach 7 fuel (castor/synth blend)

APC 9x6 (standard) was turning 15.8K rpm. Fastest measured speed, level flight was 86.0 mph.

APC 10x5 14.8K rpm and 87.3 mph

APC 9.5x7.5N 14.3K rpm and 84.6 mph

More data to come........
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:47 PM
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resourcecapital
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

your 9x6 and 9.5x7n props show very small slippage in accordance with thrusthp program. BUT the 10x5 is WAY over calculations for that rpms shown. it should be in the 70 mph range..

are your rpms ground or from in the air?

i assume these are apc props.

the other issue is rpms in general if these are apc props your engine setup is off quite a bit. it is only producing 1.09 hp you might want to try different head gaskets and glow plugs your rpms on the 9x6 should be in the 16.3/16.5 range. that is where mine turn at.
go fast turn left go faster and do it again
wes in houston, tx
Old 08-04-2010, 07:56 AM
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Tbatt
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Wes,

These are not calculated numbers but actual in flight measurements corrected for air density and altitude.

All RPMs are static on the ground measurements. In air measurements will be done later along with a lot more data points.

All of these props are APC as noted. Others will be tested later.

All of the RPM readings were off yesterday I believe it was due to the very high humidity and heat. The last time I had tached the APC 9x6 it was easily turning 16.2K but not yesterday. Because the tach numbers were down I stopped after only a couple of props. I'll try again when the weather is better.


Tim
Old 08-10-2010, 08:27 AM
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Tbatt
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

I thought that I should post something to let you know this subject is not dead.

Work (sorry, I don't like using that word here) and getting ready for our upcoming race has put prop testing on the back burner for a short while. I may be able to get another flight or two in Thursday evening. I had rather set aside a day to get all of the testing done to remove as many variables as possible though.

This is my test plan for getting the data for the props. Please keep in mind that your airplane setup and flying style will have an effect on your best prop.

The "How Fast" unit can be triggered in flight to record up to nine samples of speed. I hope to have another person triggering the sample so that I can concentrate on flying.

Each prop will be tached ON THE GROUND.
The first data point will be collected with straight and level flight.
Second data point will be a 45 degree dive (we do flying starts so this is important to us).
Next, five laps will be done with relatively wide smooth turns.
Samples of speed will be taken at the exit of a turn, at the end of the straight, middle of a turn.
The next five laps will be done with tight turns.
Each group of five laps will be timed to give a comparision of speed (multiply by two and you should get a 10 lap race time).

This data will not be perfect because I can't fly perfect. BUT it will give some useful data to go by. How you use it is up to you. If anything it should stir up some debate.

When I got back into racing with Club 40, I took what I knew about Q-500 and tried to apply it. It doesn't work very well. The SRMII is a high drag airframe compared to a Q-500 ship.
Old 08-10-2010, 10:09 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

get better thumbs if you are wanting to win races.
Old 08-11-2010, 09:08 AM
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Tbatt
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Winning isn't the problem here. I have been doing quite well in our races.

I believe that, no matter how good you think you are, there is always someone better (Greg Doe, Barry Reade, Al Kretz, etc.)

The reason I'm collecting all of this data and times and such is to see if a standard prop rule for Advanced class would work.

Discussions are going on to form an "Expert" class for next year. We keep having the same guys win and this WILL discourage people to come out and race. The idea is to move the consistant Advanced class winners up a notch. I might fall into that category depending on how we implement the rule. Personally, I don't really care what class I'm in, I just want to race and have fun.

With that said, the Novice class is still the biggest problem. Most of the racers that I have talked to about this have told me that they didn't want to buy a engine for one season to enter Novice and then possibly get bumped to Advanced and have to buy another engine. So they buy the TT and jump into Advanced with no pylon experiance all because of the engine rule. They quickly find out that you had better do your homework and practice like crazy if you want to just keep up. And, they should!

Getting the TT Pro 40 to perform like the GS 42 will require a prop rule for the TT and possibly a handycap, testing this fall will hopefully shead some light on this.

Barry Reade and I are having discussions about ideas, just ideas at this point.

As always, I welcome your input and your opinion.

Tim
Old 08-23-2010, 07:50 AM
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Tbatt
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

We tried to get out this weekend but again it was just too hot and humid to get any accurate data. Maybe in a couple of weeks it will cool down.
Old 08-23-2010, 06:51 PM
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JohnMcGowan
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Vicman, I have seen Tim fly and he AINT no slouch! [sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Tim , I certainly hear you about it being too hot and humid. I went to our field Sunday to do the maiden on "MOOO II" and had to do some adjusting , well ok,.. ALOT of adjusting, to the lo end needle- ( actually I could not get the engine to run at all except full throttle!), and sat scratching my head on what was going on with it? I had got another "good deal" on a used TT40 to put on MOOO II and once I figured out that the low end was screwed all the way closed, things got way better after that. But in the meantime, my clothes were totaly soaked with sweat.
I was able to get in two good flights with it yesterday, the second being a little better with the engine ( man was this thing tight even though it was used- but it had not been ran in a few years) . After the second flight, it was about noon AND HOT, so I packed up and headed home. I have not decorated the plane yet ( its still all white) so yes, there will be another Chick- Fil- A flying cow at a Club 40 race near you coming soon

Will be listening to what you talk up about the standardized prop rules too when the time comes .
And maybe just a suggestion for the Novice class, possiblly let them go ahead and use the TT40 , BUT... give them a slower /lower pitch prop rule to use so they can get the feel of things for a year, or whenever they /you think they are ready to move up to Advance class.... and BAM, all they would need to do is change out to whatever prop makes them legal for Advanced or whatever prop decisions the elders have made about props at the time.
That might grab a few more folks up with some interest since they would no longer have to purchase two different engines to be in two different classes ?

No need to comment about anything if you dont want to Tim, or you can always email me if you choose?
Thanks for listening...
John
Old 08-23-2010, 06:59 PM
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BarryReade
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Ya know even with all the rules and restrictions (Gag[:'(]!!!) the same guys will be at the front of the pack and the other guys will want more restrictive rules to quote "level the playing field" so they will be competitive.  That ideology has been around forever and isn't ever going to work.
Old 08-23-2010, 09:19 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Flying RCCA combat rules which mandate a weight limit, an engine size and a prop rule (8 x 3 MA prop only), we have had great success in having an even steven event for the past 4 years. Last year at our "King of the Hill" event I was beaten by a first timer for 1st and 3rd was another first timer. This was an event with 13 competitors, some of them "seasoned" combat guys. I firmly believe in the KIST method... Keep It Simple Tim! Inpection of the planes is the key. Cheaters are made to adjust to the rules, OR just go home. They have the option of moving to another form of racing if they can't play fair.
Old 08-23-2010, 09:51 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

I'm with you FC, simple and consistant.
Old 08-23-2010, 11:54 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

"Consistant" is my middle name when it comes to combat! Frank can even vouche for me,...I think Ive finished last in about the last 3 years during our SSC combat events,.. HAHAHAHA!
Old 08-24-2010, 09:21 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Sounds like my racing career. Fast...but last. The planes are fast but the thumbs are dumb. LOL.
Old 08-25-2010, 08:12 AM
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Tbatt
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

The weather is finally starting to cool a little. I'm hoping that this Saturday we can baseline the TT GP42 and see how it performs with different props. The idea being that if we know how it performs then we should be able to know that we have the TT Pro motor handicapped to a matching level. If we can make it work then only one engine will be needed and that is a good thing. From what I have heard, we are missing about a half dozen pilots because of the two engines required to fly in Club 40 starting in Novice class. Yes, I know that the GP 42 is legal in Advanced, but it is not competitive.

I still think that the prop manufacturers came up with RC pylon racing just to increase prop sales. I have a huge collection of different props in the 9-10 inch range. I still have some oldies from Top Flight, Rev-up and Grish that I look at from time to time. The newer props are consistantly better. Some of the older props were from the time that F1 used a rear intake rear exhaust 40 engine with a mini-pipe. Ah, those were the days. The sound of those engines turing 20K-24K was great!

Old 08-25-2010, 08:47 AM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

I was getting 14.5K rpm out of my GP 42 with an APC 9X6.  The same prop i run on my PRO 40's.
Old 08-25-2010, 08:22 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

OK so,, I'm kinda confused?? what is this thread about,, I read some prop data, (for AL.) I read something about a standard prop,, is that for Club 40? Berry is there goning to ba a rule change?

Oh and this data is useless to anyone but you, (Tbatt). For one I own 3 or 4 TTpro 40's and all of them run different, as much as 500 rpm or so. Plus a 95 degree day and only 72% humidity would be a nice day in Houston right now.

As for a standard prop rule for Club 40, I am AGAINST IT!! Oh and an expert class would be foolish too, we already have Novice and Advanced, we don't need another class so the middle of the pack guys can have a win handed to them. I finally got a win, and guess what I EARNED it. I spent the last 3 years learning and flying, and listening to my peers.

I'm not trying to make anyone mad or anything but, why is it every 4-6 months we have to try and "Reinvent the wheel?"
Old 08-25-2010, 09:31 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Grrrooowwl!!!!!!!

Old 08-26-2010, 06:10 AM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

RCPRO will not make a rule change concerning props that I know of. I will discuss it with Ken Erickson but there is no need to make a change. That doesn't mean that local clubs can not make a change and still run with the basic RCPROrules. I want to see that all clubs use the same air frames and motors and if I go from Georgia to Oregon and all I might have to do is change the prop to meet the local rules that will be great. That means we have standardization within the Club 40 community with only minor variations. Just like my current Club 40 plane is a "Club 40 Raider" that I built with the optional dual servo wing IAW the C40R plans. The current rules for Club 40 allows two servos in the Sky Raider wing. So, technically you could modify your World Models Sky Raider and install two servos so you can have flaperons to land or whatever else two servos will allow. The engine stardization really helps. The only thing I wish is that the GP 42, which is the dominant engine in the novice class, had the same mounting pattern as the PRO 40. It is really sad when I travel and find a Club 40 race that uses another motor than the PRO 40. It makes it really hard to race competively againts a OS46 with a PRO 40. Most of the time they won't let you race unless you have their engine. Just like some like ROG starts and others like air starts. Both starts are covered in the RCPRO Rules and whatever the local clubs want they can make it so. I am happy to say that when the race flyers come out the rules variations are are always listed so folks are informed.

Skull, congrats on your win that you did the old fashion way "You earned it"!!



ORIGINAL: skull1971

OK so,, I'm kinda confused?? what is this thread about,, I read some prop data, (for AL.) I read something about a standard prop,, is that for Club 40? Berry is there goning to ba a rule change?

Oh and this data is useless to anyone but you, (Tbatt). For one I own 3 or 4 TTpro 40's and all of them run different, as much as 500 rpm or so. Plus a 95 degree day and only 72% humidity would be a nice day in Houston right now.

As for a standard prop rule for Club 40, I am AGAINST IT!! Oh and an expert class would be foolish too, we already have Novice and Advanced, we don't need another class so the middle of the pack guys can have a win handed to them. I finally got a win, and guess what I EARNED it. I spent the last 3 years learning and flying, and listening to my peers.

I'm not trying to make anyone mad or anything but, why is it every 4-6 months we have to try and "Reinvent the wheel?"
Old 08-26-2010, 11:57 AM
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Tbatt
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Skull,

What I am doing is offering to the forum test results that most racers can not get unless they invest, as I have, for a How Fast unit.

This Saturday we will be collecting data from three TT GP 42 engines. One is a real screamer and has been a consistant winner. One of the others has been run quite a bit and is fully broken in. The last one is my personel engine that is just getting broken in. It only has about a gallon of fuel through it. It was purchased for the Nashville version of Q40 racing when they only allowed the GP 42. They have since gone to the TT Pro.

We will be taking static and flying measurements of these engines and prop combinations.

Speed will be measured while flying a straight and level flight, and while doing pylon laps. Measurements will be made at the end of the straight away. midway into a turn, exit speed out of a turn (turns will be done for both tight and wide turn styles).

Why are we doing this? IF and I do mean IF we decide to use a standard prop rule for our North Alabama races, we can pick one or two props that we know are the best for the average engine.

We will be repeating the battery of test with the TT Pro 40 too.

Use the data or not. I figured if I'm going to do all of this work I might as well share my findings.

This fall, the four clubs that are hosting C40 races will be getting together to hash out our own rules. We will use the same plane and engines but the other factors we may do something different. Scoring, is the main topic and rules covering midairs and pylon strikes.
Old 08-26-2010, 03:59 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Good info there Tim that you are willing to do all this work for the data. Thanks MUCH.
Man, you are a keeper! [sm=thumbup.gif]
Jmc
Old 08-26-2010, 07:59 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Before we go any farther, we need to clear something up. In Texas, at least, Trash Talking is most of the fun of Club 40! Just look at our past threads, and my above post.


Tim I'd be interested in the "How fast" unit in a plane during a race, that's what we want do do, so why not look at the data under race conditions? Plus, I like the "Any prop" rules, in a class that has to be basically "Box Stock" we at least have something to tinker with. I was even against the outlaw of "Clipped" props, I spent a lot of time building a jig and finding what works. But we, as a group, in Texas decided to go with the RCPRO rules, as posted, and folllow them to the letter. That made it easy for us to travel across the state and not have to worry about different sets of rules. Kinda sucked to drive 3 hours and find out you can't pass tech inspection. It is also easy to find the rules, just go to the website and there it is, so it also eliminates the "Oh man I didn't know, and that's not fair" comments.

Anyway have fun,
Old 08-26-2010, 09:49 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Eric, are you and I related somehow? [sm=lol.gif] I read what you stated about trash talk and laffed out loud.
Im with you man, the trash MUST flow ,lol
Im not that great a pylon 40 pilot yet- Ive just attended two races, but I can hold my own when it comes time to laying down the smack talk ! HAHAHAH
Man what fun this forum is ! [sm=thumbs_up.gif] Im being serious about that.
Now if I can get some of my fellow pilot buddies who are lurking out there to step up to the podium and start spewing some junk , I KNOW that they have it in them because I HAVE heard it before.... where are you guys??????????????
Old 08-26-2010, 11:41 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data


ORIGINAL: JohnMcGowan


Now if I can get some of my fellow pilot buddies who are lurking out there to step up to the podium and start spewing some junk , I KNOW that they have it in them because I HAVE heard it before.... where are you guys??????????????

They're scared!! what a bunch of Mary's!
Old 08-27-2010, 12:00 PM
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Tbatt
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data

Skull.

Thanks for your input. It is appreciated!

One of the things that KILLED pylon racing here many years ago was the lack of rules enforcement. It seemed that just about everyone was cheating so no one wanted to point fingers. Well, it got totally out of control and then people started to drop out because it took a lot of work to keep up. Some guys had up to a dozen engines that were bought, modified and raced. These guys were turning 2000-3000 more rpm than a truely stock engine was capable of. I know this because I tested a bunch of truely stock engines and they could not turn what the winners were turning, not even when a 8x4 prop with 50% nitro was used. The stock engine would not turn past 15Krpm unless modified. I modified a couple of the engines and they would turn an additional 1000-2000 rpm but it took some very good Dremel tool work. I know how to make an engine run, I just refuse to do it for C40. My bone stock engines seems to run better than most mainly because I broke them in right.

The one thing that is attractive about a one prop rule is that the blatant cheaters will have a hard time hiding their modifications. If one guy is turning 1000rpm more than everyone else, on the same fuel, something is wrong. Put a "golden prop" on the engine and tach it. If it turns way above the norm then that engine isn't going to be allowed. No tear down is needed, no calipers, dial gages, degree wheels to have on hand and someone who knows how to use them. A single prop rule makes the legal engine process easier.

Experimentation to gain speed is fun, that's what I'm doing by running all of these test. I could keep all of the data to myself and come up with the best prop solution and have an advantage over all of you. But that is not the way I see Club 40 racing. It should be fun and so far it is. I already know what prop works best on my plane (actually two props depending on ????). The prop I'm using most was told to me by a fellow racer and it does work best so far. Will it work best for you, I don't know but I can collect data that shows it performs better than another prop under similar circumstances. When all of the data is collected and published it will give us some absolute, real world information to decide what prop works best. Use it or not.

Because flying style varies by the pilot, we may decide that we allow two props for our racing. One with higher top speed and one with better acceleration out of the turns. Then again we may throw the prop rule out. Who knows? It's all fun to me.

Tim
Old 08-27-2010, 05:10 PM
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Default RE: New TT Pro 40 prop data


ORIGINAL: Tbatt

It's all fun to me.

Tim
That's what's most important!!

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