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No profit in makeing kits?

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No profit in makeing kits?

Old 11-21-2010, 07:06 AM
  #26  
misterv
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

In reply to China making ARF models of old kits. If you look through the Chinese ARF makers web sites you will find many of the old kits especially Sig , are being made as arf. by the Chinese and at a much lower price than the original kit.
Old 11-21-2010, 08:11 AM
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blikseme300
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

It's not only the disapperance of kits that is troubling, it is the disappearance of an eco system of supplies used for building. Old style hobby stores not only sold kits, but all the supplies to complete them. Not even TH is immune to this.

The shrinking variety of coverings and covering materials are an example of this trend. Things like this must be discouraging any newbie that is interested in building. It is not only cost that prevents people from doing things it is often the hassle of having to hunt for materials and hardware. Does your hobby store stock dope and fabric? Epoxy paints? Nice Cub kit there, but where do I get the covering? Naah, I will buy the ARF instead.

IMHO, kit and scratch building are now closer than ever as you need to source things yourself. Good thing though is that when groups of builders form these soon form their own flying group or club. Building and flying together is the foundation of the old school camaraderie that is missing from most clubs today.

Just my thoughts.

Bliksem

Old 11-21-2010, 09:18 AM
  #28  
misterv
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

Bliksem. You're my kind of man. I'm 77 years old and have been modelling for over 60 years and seen unbeleivable changes. The greatest is the reliance on ARF models. They are great. A few years back a simple ARF of today's quality would be placed in a museum for outstanding workmanship. If not for ARF our club of 180 members would probably be 10. We would not have a field.We could not afford the facilities.However it has come with a price. Too many flyers have no idea of what makes a good model, how to trim it let alone how to build one. You see cazy quieries on forums seeking answers to the most basic of problems and I agree the comradeship is going out of the hobby.As to the cost and availability of building materials from LHS they are becoming a thing of the past. Following heart surgery a couple of years back, I took a while to recover and in that year scratch built 5 models and assembled probably a dozen ARF. I do the ARF for friends, free, I just enjoy building or assembling. I had quite a lot of bulding materials on hand but I estimated to scratch build a high quality model was 3 to 4 times the cost of a comparable ARF. They may last longer,sometimes they look better but usually the ARF were lighter and flew better.
Old 11-21-2010, 12:23 PM
  #29  
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

The reality is, fewer and fewer folks are actually building anything. By "building" I mean actually gluing pieces together, sanding, and doing the covering as well. Most of the guys in my club buy ARF's, or used planes. Less than 5 of us actually build. A lot of the reasons can be found here. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1102387
Old 11-23-2010, 12:05 AM
  #30  
Keri Morgret
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

This is an interesting thread for me to read, as I'm a manufacturer/vendor in the model warship combat niche. Our niche is on the cusp of what miserv is talking about. We take 1:144 scale RC warships from WWI and WWII, put paintball tanks in them, and fire BBs and ball bearings at each other. The ships sink, but are easily repaired, and can be back on the water in an hour or less many times.

There is no RTR, or even almost ready to run in our niche. Unless you buy something used from someone else, you either start from a set of plans and build up your ship rib by rib with wood, or you take a "shortcut" by buying a fiberglass hull and perhaps a deck kit with a superstructure. Even if we could sell you every single part you needed, it'd still be a couple of solid weekends to get things running, and often people will take the whole winter to build a new ship.

Some of the people in our niche fear that RTR or even almost RTR boats would do what misterv has seen people that go out and get on the pond and have no idea how anything is put together or any understanding of how it all works. We also see the other side, that many groups don't have great places to have events and people have to travel for hours (in some cases) to meet up with others in the same hobby.

The barrier to entry of time and skill is certainly a double-edged sword for many hobbies. In some respects I think we need to adapt or die/become irrelevant. I've seen this with ham radio as well. I got involved in the late 1980s, when people could easily get solid-state gear that could be run straight out of the box. These "appliance operators" were going to be the death of the hobby, since they didn't know how to solder, didn't have to understand electricity, etc. Just turn on the radio and start talking, no appreciation for what it took to get to that point. I was one who used a radio straight out of the box but was also one who learned how to be a net control and help manage communications for a 100 mile bike race with a few thousand people. My brother used the radio straight out of the box and now makes a living selling gear that integrates ham radio and GPS (APRS), and people are putting that to uses the people assembling Heathkit radios would never have dreamed of.

As a manufacturer, it is an interesting and challenging place to be right now, as we try to make some parts (especially cannons) more available so it's easier to get into the hobby but at the same time we hear from people already in the hobby that they hope they never see RTR boats available for warship combat. I feel we (as a hobby) are a ways off from the threat/promise of large-scale RTR boats, though I think looking at other hobbies who have been through this transition already could be instructive. What advice would you guys give?
Old 11-23-2010, 02:23 AM
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

What advice would you guys give?
Not advice here but a couple of observations. As in any endeavor, one gets out what one puts in. Building is a huge plus for me (although I do own a couple ARFs, but they are of birds that aren't kitted). Building/tuning are hard-won skills, as I'm sure they are for the boats. I hope there's very little market for RTR in your case, as those types usually have the attention span of a border collie on crack!

I wonder what it is mentally that occurs between age 11 to say 16? Ever notice that things picked up during that time stay throughout ones life? Music, RC, cars, Ham, maybe they all belong under 'eye/hand' skills.

The other related thing is the general dumbing-down of our society, and the scorn displayed to those who are more technically adept. Few schools have a science department, as I had, and in my case the teacher was a Ham operator who was enthusiastic and inspired his students. No answers here, only more questions...
Old 11-23-2010, 09:56 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?


ORIGINAL: BasinBum

Based on the logic of this thread, models of Harley's on ebay must be through the roof.

I guess since it is profitable to sell kits and nobody is doing it, there must be some global ARF conspiracy?
you're right,i agree with u .
Old 11-24-2010, 02:10 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

The COLLECTOR mentality has caused kits to sit on the shelf when available, and expensive when rare...When everyone built kit prices were more stable, now its more volatile. Depending on how scarce something seems to be.
Old 11-24-2010, 05:04 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

This may have been brought up, but you don't have to, or need to buy a kit. Get a set of plans, and cut your own. Or even better, draw your own plan and cut and build your own plane. This kind of building has proven to be the most gratifying of all to me.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
Old 11-24-2010, 07:57 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

Well being an ex-kit manufacturer from a small home hobby business I too see the changes in the hobby. There are still the few select people I call experts that build their own models. Most of the time these out perform the ARFs. I started Early RC Models in early 2004 as a way to supply the vintage RC market for us guys who wanted to build and fly the models we grew up with and not have to pay the kit collector prices. I sold Early RC to Wing Mfg because I was just too busy with it as a second job. The profits were not enough to make it my full time employment.

What I experienced was several people wanting to by my models in ARF form which I did not offer but did explore the possibility with the Chinese mfgs. The price was quite low but one had to invest in large quantities to be reasonable.

What really has been a concern to me not is the lack of true builders. I’m currently doing some Quickie 500 racing and have designed and built my own models which have been quite successful locally. The new guys we are trying to encourage to get into the racing hobby are looking to a fast fix. Great Planes supplies the Viper which is a good starting plane but most of the time a kit built model will out perform it thus leaving the guy with the ARF frustrated. I’ve even heard guys complaining about the kit built models and wanting to outlaw them for fairness!!

So what are we to do? I look around at the pilots at the races and many, like myself are in the 40+ ages with very few younger guys entering into the hobby. Very sad to see.

Bob Harris
Old 11-24-2010, 10:47 AM
  #36  
Keri Morgret
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

Here's what I wrote over at RC Groups on the thread about bringing modeling back, and I think some of it is appropriate for this discussion as well.

Has anyone discussed what might be done to an ARF kit that would encourage someone to either experiment and modify that model, or to use a kit for the next time?

My background: I'm involved with RC boats, not planes, have seen similar debates and hand wringing in ham radio, and have a background in instructional design and technology.

It seems that underneath it all, a lot of times the issue is "if they get it ready to operate, they don't have an understanding of how it's put together and what factors are influencing either other, and it's just a big black box".

In an ideal world, could any of these be solved with outstanding documentation that would come with something that was ready/almost ready to run? In hypothetical the case of the RC warship combat boats (for which there is no RTR), I could see it being an explanation about each major part and why it was chosen and what it influences.
- There are two motors of this size here. They were chosen because they were a good tradeoff for weight vs size vs performance. If you want more power, you could swap them out with a motor like xyz, but you'll also need a bigger battery, which will take up more space and add more weight.
- This is the speed controller, it's here because it does this and such. Something cheaper that would do this would be product abc, but then you lose the feature bcd.
- The props have this many blades and are at this pitch. You can't change certain things because that's the way it was on the original ship, but what you can change is the somethingorother, and it can help you make tighter turns but you sacrifice something else.

Could better instructions and explanations be part of an answer, if it helped people be more successful in their first experiences and encouraged them to continue in the hobby and chose something more complicated later on? Or even give them the confidence to start with a kit instead of buying a RTR/RTF?

Edit: I came here from a RCUniverse posting, and didn't realize that this was in an aircraft-specific board, so apologies for the off-topic example. The RCUniverse thread talked about people who purchased ARF planes that asked the most basic questions that they wouldn't have needed to ask if they had done any building from a kit and had learned as they went along. That's in part what sparked my question about the need for instructions and explanations.
Old 11-24-2010, 10:46 PM
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

ORIGINAL: BobHH
So what are we to do? I look around at the pilots at the races and many, like myself are in the 40+ ages with very few younger guys entering into the hobby. Very sad to see.

Bob Harris
Bob,
I've felt the same way for years, once ARFs came on strong even many who were kit builders quickly faded opting for the easier method, While I still kit and scratch built my planes. This past year as I was getting back into the hobby after a 5-6 year break, with the exception of finishing a Midwest Extra 300 I actually bought a couple pre built planes, Not ARFs but ARFs to me. and last week I bought an ARF Bipe from a fellow club member that needed repairs. So I've been i the same boat opting for the quick fix not have time to build this year.

I do have some scratch projects to follow and will never completely give up building. There are fewer and fewer that are willing to put the time into it to have a one of a kind aircraft. I don't mind being one of the few remaining Dinosaurs.
Old 11-25-2010, 03:55 PM
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Default RE: No profit in makeing kits?

All this makes ya wonder what this world will be like in a couple years.

I have been helping a new student put an ARF togeather and all I hear is they could have done this different, they could have finished this so we didn't have to. Why should it take so long to build this KIT, that's when I slap him up long side the head and inform him it's NOT a kit . It's really hard sometimes not to say something about their lack of skills and their impatience, but it also runs over into their learning cycle , if it isn't an electric box it's too much work.

OH !! well at my age I'm not going to worry about it much, you young kids can figure it out. ENJOY !!! RED

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