Homeland Security Act
08-02-2003, 02:42 AM
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Originally posted by BasinBum
Tom M, Your right they could tap my phone same as yours because of homeland security. It has nothing to do with my license and therefore not a valid argument when it comes to restricting sales of model rocket propellents. Don't get me wrong, the Patriot Act was a huge blow to civil rights but I understand why they want to keep tabs on explosives and who's buying them. The parts that give them power to tap phones I don't agree with.
Regarding the field being closed because of Homeland Security. Where did you here that was the reason? Is this a field rumor or are you a club official who met with the city? We lost a field in Long Beach, CA because someone flew into the Goodyear blimp that would park nearby. That was several years before 9/11.
Tom M, Your right they could tap my phone same as yours because of homeland security. It has nothing to do with my license and therefore not a valid argument when it comes to restricting sales of model rocket propellents. Don't get me wrong, the Patriot Act was a huge blow to civil rights but I understand why they want to keep tabs on explosives and who's buying them. The parts that give them power to tap phones I don't agree with.
Regarding the field being closed because of Homeland Security. Where did you here that was the reason? Is this a field rumor or are you a club official who met with the city? We lost a field in Long Beach, CA because someone flew into the Goodyear blimp that would park nearby. That was several years before 9/11.
08-02-2003, 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by BasinBum
Regarding the field being closed because of Homeland Security. Where did you here that was the reason? Is this a field rumor or are you a club official who met with the city? We lost a field in Long Beach, CA because someone flew into the Goodyear blimp that would park nearby. That was several years before 9/11.
Regarding the field being closed because of Homeland Security. Where did you here that was the reason? Is this a field rumor or are you a club official who met with the city? We lost a field in Long Beach, CA because someone flew into the Goodyear blimp that would park nearby. That was several years before 9/11.
08-02-2003, 02:51 AM
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Originally posted by P-51B
Well stated.
Well stated.
I would still like to hear from someone who is having a hard time participating in model rocketry.
I agree that the Patriot act was a knee jerk reaction and some parts need to be better thought out... I just don't know that the one being discussed here is one of those parts.
08-02-2003, 02:54 AM
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Originally posted by bodymann
Buddy i wish it was Rumor. but i got the info from a good friend of mine that is a member at this club.
Buddy i wish it was Rumor. but i got the info from a good friend of mine that is a member at this club.
08-02-2003, 02:56 AM
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Originally posted by P-51B
Bodyman, based on your location I was also wondering if they were sure it was a factory, and not somthing else.
Bodyman, based on your location I was also wondering if they were sure it was a factory, and not somthing else.
08-02-2003, 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by BasinBum
15 year olds should not be able to buy rocket motors Homeland Security or not.
15 year olds should not be able to buy rocket motors Homeland Security or not.
Ever seen October Skies based on the book "The Rocket Boys"?
I believe that if more young kids were encouraged in these, and other thought provoking activities, the current trend of "dumbing down" wouldn't be arguable, and kids wouldn't be so inclined towards drugs and other bad behaviour.
08-02-2003, 03:13 AM
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P-51, I used to buy them when I was a kid also, then we'd see how many we could strap together or what other damage we could do with them. I'd also mix gunpowder in my basement from stuff I bought at the drugstore and my chemistry set. It's no wonder I do what I do for a living.
Maybe a parent should be supervising when kids shoot off thier rockets. If I owned a hobby store these days I wouldn't sell rocket motors to minors. I think that is a recipe for a lawsuit.
Maybe a parent should be supervising when kids shoot off thier rockets. If I owned a hobby store these days I wouldn't sell rocket motors to minors. I think that is a recipe for a lawsuit.
08-02-2003, 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by BasinBum
I'd also mix gunpowder in my basement from stuff I bought at the drugstore and my chemistry set. It's no wonder I do what I do for a living.
I'd also mix gunpowder in my basement from stuff I bought at the drugstore and my chemistry set. It's no wonder I do what I do for a living.
08-02-2003, 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by BasinBum
I read an article about a 15 year old who can't buy rocket motors but I can't find the article....that's not very well stated or a legitimate argument. 15 year olds should not be able to buy rocket motors Homeland Security or not.
I read an article about a 15 year old who can't buy rocket motors but I can't find the article....that's not very well stated or a legitimate argument. 15 year olds should not be able to buy rocket motors Homeland Security or not.
Laws may ground model rocketeers
Permits would be required; some say costs would soar
Published on June 16, 2003
By Andrew Pritchard
Staff Writer___
Sixteen-year-old Ellison Lenz of Roseville has been building model rockets for almost 10 years. But he is worried that new federal regulations will send the hobby's cost sky-high - too high for him to keep doing it.
``I wouldn't be able to afford to launch anything anymore, not anything really big,'' he said.
The new regulations have drawn national attention and have prompted a bill cosponsored by Sen. Norm Coleman, R-Minn., that would exempt Lenz
Permits would be required; some say costs would soar
Published on June 16, 2003
By Andrew Pritchard
Staff Writer___
Sixteen-year-old Ellison Lenz of Roseville has been building model rockets for almost 10 years. But he is worried that new federal regulations will send the hobby's cost sky-high - too high for him to keep doing it.
``I wouldn't be able to afford to launch anything anymore, not anything really big,'' he said.
The new regulations have drawn national attention and have prompted a bill cosponsored by Sen. Norm Coleman, R-Minn., that would exempt Lenz
08-02-2003, 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by P-51B
Since I haven't personnaly read through the thing, do you happen to know if you need to be licensed to purchase cans of black powder for reloading ammo? (I don't happen to do this, but it is an explosive) Last I heard you didn't, but that may have also changed in the act.
Since I haven't personnaly read through the thing, do you happen to know if you need to be licensed to purchase cans of black powder for reloading ammo? (I don't happen to do this, but it is an explosive) Last I heard you didn't, but that may have also changed in the act.
The bad news is I can't buy grain alcohol anymore.......there goes my Christmas tonic.
08-02-2003, 03:51 AM
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Mike,
You want me to research it? I don't think Ellison Lenz or Andrew Pritchard did any research. He's "worried he won't be able to continue"....there is nothing factual about that at all. I'm sure the reporter is more interested in the human nature aspect of the story as opposed to the facts.
Please someone tell me how they can't participate in model rocketry because of the new regulations.
I don't have to do research to prove your point. I am just pointing out that nothing presented in this thread is factual or leads me to believe that model rocketry or RC is in danger from lawmakers.
I also think if i didn't say this thread was not appropriate you would have closed it down already but you seem to like to take an opposing view from mine.
You want me to research it? I don't think Ellison Lenz or Andrew Pritchard did any research. He's "worried he won't be able to continue"....there is nothing factual about that at all. I'm sure the reporter is more interested in the human nature aspect of the story as opposed to the facts.
Please someone tell me how they can't participate in model rocketry because of the new regulations.
I don't have to do research to prove your point. I am just pointing out that nothing presented in this thread is factual or leads me to believe that model rocketry or RC is in danger from lawmakers.
I also think if i didn't say this thread was not appropriate you would have closed it down already but you seem to like to take an opposing view from mine.
08-02-2003, 04:00 AM
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08-02-2003, 04:15 AM
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Originally posted by BasinBum
I don't have to do research to prove your point. I am just pointing out that nothing presented in this thread is factual or leads me to believe that model rocketry or RC is in danger from lawmakers.
I don't have to do research to prove your point. I am just pointing out that nothing presented in this thread is factual or leads me to believe that model rocketry or RC is in danger from lawmakers.
I also think if i didn't say this thread was not appropriate you would have closed it down already but you seem to like to take an opposing view from mine.
08-02-2003, 06:27 AM
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I am only typing this because I can do it while I am sitting here rocking a sick but sleeping baby. He is more important than any of you
No matter what I say Basin Bum, you won't be impressed, but in courtesy to everyone else...
Note that on some of the information below, I am going from memory because it is the middle of the night. If I mention an incorrect motor size or weight in grams, or mis-state a particular detail of the rules and regulations, well, I'm sure you can nit pick it to death, but the mistakes, if any are de minimus non curat lex.
Model rocketry is, and has been thoroughly regulated by the FAA for years. In essence, small, lightweight rockets can be flown below 1000 feet. Larger or heavier ones require FAA flight clearances. As the size and altitude target increases, the regulations get more stringent and the flight clearances get harder to obtain. Violators get prosecuted.
The present regulations have been worked out carefully, thoughtfully and cooperatively by the FAA, the NAR, and the Tripoli Rocketry Association ("TRA") over the past 40 years. They are a set of regulations that work, and that meet the reasonable safety concerns of the government, parents, hobbiests, the industry, educators, and the National Fire Protection Association.
Further, the industry regulates itself. They know that they are dealing with a hobby that can be percieved as dangerous, and they bend over backward to keep the participants, spectators and the general public safe.
The design and labling of all rocket motors is tightly controlled by the NAR and TRA, which periodically test and recertify, or even decertify motors that fail thrust or safety testing. Engines that have lost their certification cannot be sold. The industry enforces this and it works.
The sale of all rocket motors to children under 14 is prohibited by the industry rules. The industry enforces this and it works. (yeah, well kids manage to buy liquor too. That doesn't mean the regulation doesn't work)
The sale of larger motors larger than C is similarly prohibited to children under 18, though they may be used with adult supervision. The industry enforces this and it works.
Somewhere around G or H size, only those who have passed a NAR certification test and DEMONSTRATED safe practices can buy the motors. Again, the industry enforces this and it works. (and it really does, the industry maintains a database of certified buyers and dealers who fail to consult the list don't get any more product)
As the motors get larger, the certification requirements get more and more strict. And these rules are efficiently run by the industry in a way that has minimum fiscal impact on the consumer or the taxpayer.
All in all the regulatory scheme as it existed before the HSA, a combination of self regulation and FAA oversight, was one of the few examples of how government regulation, developed in harmony with consumers and private enterprise, can and ought to work for the benefit of the governed.
Now, under the HSA, an entirely different bureacracy, BATFE, with no history in the hobby, and no knowledge of the technology is charged with stepping in to re-regulate the industry, and they have done so without bothering to examine the issues, understand the industry, or consult with the affected consumers.
They have demonstrated thier heavy handed approach by establishing storage and licensing requirements that treat model rocket motors larger than about F as deadly explosives, despite the fact that the 40 year history of commercial model rocket motors proves otherwise.
Senator Enzi proposes to eliminate a bad and expensive plan to regulate an industry that has worked cooperatively and safely with the FAA, NASA, and Schools for years and has led thousands of children into careers in science and math. He amde a good star int eh spring as some of you point out. But now, Senators Lautenberg and Schumer, seeing a chance to grab headlines, are claiming that Enzi's proposal is a green light for terrorism, and trying to kill it.
Gotta Go, The baby is stirring.
Good night.
No matter what I say Basin Bum, you won't be impressed, but in courtesy to everyone else...
Note that on some of the information below, I am going from memory because it is the middle of the night. If I mention an incorrect motor size or weight in grams, or mis-state a particular detail of the rules and regulations, well, I'm sure you can nit pick it to death, but the mistakes, if any are de minimus non curat lex.
Model rocketry is, and has been thoroughly regulated by the FAA for years. In essence, small, lightweight rockets can be flown below 1000 feet. Larger or heavier ones require FAA flight clearances. As the size and altitude target increases, the regulations get more stringent and the flight clearances get harder to obtain. Violators get prosecuted.
The present regulations have been worked out carefully, thoughtfully and cooperatively by the FAA, the NAR, and the Tripoli Rocketry Association ("TRA") over the past 40 years. They are a set of regulations that work, and that meet the reasonable safety concerns of the government, parents, hobbiests, the industry, educators, and the National Fire Protection Association.
Further, the industry regulates itself. They know that they are dealing with a hobby that can be percieved as dangerous, and they bend over backward to keep the participants, spectators and the general public safe.
The design and labling of all rocket motors is tightly controlled by the NAR and TRA, which periodically test and recertify, or even decertify motors that fail thrust or safety testing. Engines that have lost their certification cannot be sold. The industry enforces this and it works.
The sale of all rocket motors to children under 14 is prohibited by the industry rules. The industry enforces this and it works. (yeah, well kids manage to buy liquor too. That doesn't mean the regulation doesn't work)
The sale of larger motors larger than C is similarly prohibited to children under 18, though they may be used with adult supervision. The industry enforces this and it works.
Somewhere around G or H size, only those who have passed a NAR certification test and DEMONSTRATED safe practices can buy the motors. Again, the industry enforces this and it works. (and it really does, the industry maintains a database of certified buyers and dealers who fail to consult the list don't get any more product)
As the motors get larger, the certification requirements get more and more strict. And these rules are efficiently run by the industry in a way that has minimum fiscal impact on the consumer or the taxpayer.
All in all the regulatory scheme as it existed before the HSA, a combination of self regulation and FAA oversight, was one of the few examples of how government regulation, developed in harmony with consumers and private enterprise, can and ought to work for the benefit of the governed.
Now, under the HSA, an entirely different bureacracy, BATFE, with no history in the hobby, and no knowledge of the technology is charged with stepping in to re-regulate the industry, and they have done so without bothering to examine the issues, understand the industry, or consult with the affected consumers.
They have demonstrated thier heavy handed approach by establishing storage and licensing requirements that treat model rocket motors larger than about F as deadly explosives, despite the fact that the 40 year history of commercial model rocket motors proves otherwise.
Senator Enzi proposes to eliminate a bad and expensive plan to regulate an industry that has worked cooperatively and safely with the FAA, NASA, and Schools for years and has led thousands of children into careers in science and math. He amde a good star int eh spring as some of you point out. But now, Senators Lautenberg and Schumer, seeing a chance to grab headlines, are claiming that Enzi's proposal is a green light for terrorism, and trying to kill it.
Gotta Go, The baby is stirring.
Good night.
08-02-2003, 02:43 PM
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CTDahle,
My experience so far with the ATF has not been that bad. We had a problem with storage magazine requirements also and they found a way around the regulations that was safe and worked for those involved. There was a real effort to work with us instead of against us as they realized the knee-jerk nature of the May 24 regulation changes. They were not given more inspectors to deal with the new regulations and were trying to figure out all the new regulations as were we.
The other problem you guys have is airfreight carriers and rocket motors which I think might have already been worked out.
We all know how our lives changed post 9/11 and tighter controls on potential explosive items are an inevitability. Does that mean RC airplanes are next, I don't think so. Is the FBI looking at lists of hobby store customers for possible Al-Kahda(sp?) connections, probably.
So those of you who are so inclined, write your senator in an effort to keep us off that slippery slope of government regulations. As for me, I'll think about it a bit more but I know I've said more than my fare share in this thread already.
My experience so far with the ATF has not been that bad. We had a problem with storage magazine requirements also and they found a way around the regulations that was safe and worked for those involved. There was a real effort to work with us instead of against us as they realized the knee-jerk nature of the May 24 regulation changes. They were not given more inspectors to deal with the new regulations and were trying to figure out all the new regulations as were we.
The other problem you guys have is airfreight carriers and rocket motors which I think might have already been worked out.
We all know how our lives changed post 9/11 and tighter controls on potential explosive items are an inevitability. Does that mean RC airplanes are next, I don't think so. Is the FBI looking at lists of hobby store customers for possible Al-Kahda(sp?) connections, probably.
So those of you who are so inclined, write your senator in an effort to keep us off that slippery slope of government regulations. As for me, I'll think about it a bit more but I know I've said more than my fare share in this thread already.
08-02-2003, 02:56 PM
#43
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Just so you are aware, there was an article in the Washington post about two months ago about the fact that the FBI IS looking into the threat of RC aircraft and availability of over-the-counter products.
The article was after this story, which has brought the attention to our little hobby;
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79450,00.html
The article was after this story, which has brought the attention to our little hobby;
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79450,00.html
08-02-2003, 05:19 PM
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Basin Bum, your point is well taken. I actually have done more than write my congressman, I've discussed it with him. I hope others will soberly and calmly do the same.
I am also quite confident that ATF will do a professional job. However, it seems to me that ATF has bigger fish to fry. Congress should not be directing ATF to waste already scarce resources on rocket hobbiests when there are real threats out there, nor should consumers, in a time of economic stress, be compelled to make un-necessary expenditures in order to continue to participate in leisure time activities.
P51- For reasons Basin Bum has pointed out, I am not especially comfortable discussing or debating how model planes or rockets can or cannot be weaponized. While I don't believe it possible, I'd rather not give anyone any ideas.
To the rest, this has been an interesting and useful discussion.
Cheers,
I am also quite confident that ATF will do a professional job. However, it seems to me that ATF has bigger fish to fry. Congress should not be directing ATF to waste already scarce resources on rocket hobbiests when there are real threats out there, nor should consumers, in a time of economic stress, be compelled to make un-necessary expenditures in order to continue to participate in leisure time activities.
P51- For reasons Basin Bum has pointed out, I am not especially comfortable discussing or debating how model planes or rockets can or cannot be weaponized. While I don't believe it possible, I'd rather not give anyone any ideas.
To the rest, this has been an interesting and useful discussion.
Cheers,
08-03-2003, 06:39 PM
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Just passing on a link to a very public story. No further discussion.
I'd say this thread has run its course. See ya on other threads!
I'd say this thread has run its course. See ya on other threads!
08-04-2003, 02:40 PM
#46
Homeland Security Act
Christopher's last thread explains our argument well. The present legislation is redundant and will place a larger burden on the DOHS. There is already an infrastructure in place that allows the FBI, ATF, or any other agency to track an monitor the actions of rocketeers.
But, the problem is Bureaucracy. No department wants to work with another, 9/11 would not have happened if the FBI worked harder with the NIS. To prevent this, the government decided to create one agency that would take care of all our problems. Thus, redundant laws and legislation.
But, the problem is Bureaucracy. No department wants to work with another, 9/11 would not have happened if the FBI worked harder with the NIS. To prevent this, the government decided to create one agency that would take care of all our problems. Thus, redundant laws and legislation.
08-04-2003, 03:40 PM
#48
Re: Its these rockets...
Originally posted by MasterSmasher
These are the rockets that are killing the hobby
These are the rockets that are killing the hobby
I have to admit, having a rocket that big would get a little attention from the neighbors and the local sheriff, so a terrorist would not like it, but it does look cool mounted on top of a VW.
08-04-2003, 08:17 PM
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Even that big, they don't have much payload capacity. They are just built to fly high. If you load them down with the idea of trading altitude for payload, they can't accellerate fast enough to attain aerodynamic stability before they leave the pad. Also, it takes months of preparation to fly them, and only a few hundred people that are able to meet the technical skills certification requirements in order to buy motors that big.
08-04-2003, 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by ctdahle
Even that big, they don't have much payload capacity. They are just built to fly high. If you load them down with the idea of trading altitude for payload, they can't accellerate fast enough to attain aerodynamic stability before they leave the pad. Also, it takes months of preparation to fly them, and only a few hundred people that are able to meet the technical skills certification requirements in order to buy motors that big.
Even that big, they don't have much payload capacity. They are just built to fly high. If you load them down with the idea of trading altitude for payload, they can't accellerate fast enough to attain aerodynamic stability before they leave the pad. Also, it takes months of preparation to fly them, and only a few hundred people that are able to meet the technical skills certification requirements in order to buy motors that big.
Anyway, I really enjoy both hobbies and would very much hate to put my rockets in storage. :angry: