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  1. #226
    GallopingGhostler's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    Regarding obesity in America. Have you noticed how that sugar has crept into nearly all preprocessed foods to include spaghetti sauce, ketchup, mayonnaise, certain brands of Worcestershire sauce, bacon, hot dogs, and etc.? Diabetes is at an all time high with American adults. Even artificial sugars are not good for one's health (in spite of what some say, IMO), because they prepare the brain to store fat.

    So, the solution is to go back to cooking one's own food and avoiding all preprocessed including snacks.

    Back on the subject of ARF, of course building aircraft teaches skills that can be applied to ARF's, such as recognizing weakly put together ones, so one can strengthen them before first flight or first observation of weakness during a flight.

    I think what I have been seeing is an influx of new building skills with the newer materials because of ARF's. We see more and more foam building with building construction industry insulating foam, arts and crafts posterboard, and etc. Some of these builders really put to task the ARF manufacturers, even as wonderful as their scale creations look in both realism and attractiveness.

    Due to costs, I have not purchased any more ARF's because I have enough already. Instead, I am concentrating on kits I have collected over time, hoping one day to have the time to build. Also, there are plans of planes that I wanted to scratchbuild, but didn't have the time. The ARF's, mainly older nitro foamies have filled a gap for me. In some ways, I wished that manufacturers would continue to offer these inexpensive styrofoam wonders. They were really not ARF's but ARC's. They could be made to look good with just a little covering / painting TLC.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  2. #227
    sensei's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


    ORIGINAL: sensei

    He may now tell you about how he built a Heathkit radio and receiver, big deal allot of us did that back in the day. Thank god those days are gone. Hey there Kit Builder, did you build this composite fuse? If you ask me, you might be getting a little LAZY because that fuse looks like it was ARF built for you...

    Bob
    Bob,

    Have you ever built a composite plane? There is more work than stick building it. I used it as an example more about scratching the wings than anything else.

    Yes I built my own radios from kits early on.

    Bill Waco Brother #1
    Well let’s see, Have I ever built a composite plane? How about these to name just a few. But I designed, manufactured tooling and built the aircraft from the ground up...The Cobra biplane was completely manufactured from carbon fiber pre-preg, and honeycomb, The Staudacher was manufactured in large from carbon fiber, and fiberglass hybrid pre-preg layups over honeybomb. The extra 300S I actually manufactured 10 complete Kits, The fuselage's were all fiberglass pre-preg and honeycomb and the wings and tail feathers were balsa sheeted foam cores. So all that and $1.25 will buy a cup of coffee maybe. There is still nothing wrong with anyone wanting to buy assemble or fly an ARF, it is a hobby, a sport or anything that individual wishes it to be without being ridiculed by anyone ever...[:@]
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    Fly It Like You Stole It!!!

  3. #228
    fly24-7's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?


    ORIGINAL: combatpigg


    ORIGINAL: fly24-7


    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

    Well, I guess it's time to stir the pot a little. Those that make excuses for not building are hiding the root cause. Laziness.

    Bill, Waco Brother #1

    ORIGINAL: combatpigg

    I think Stickbuilder's assessment is a generalisation that has a lot of truth behind it.
    This generation of Americans is [collectively] the most obese group of folks in the history of mankind.
    This is an undisputable fact.
    Another undisputable fact is that obesity and laziness go hand in hand. They both work in a vicious circle to feed one another.
    The ARF Culture is simply a reflection of this ugly truth.
    If you think this observation doesn't apply to you...then good!
    Interesting statements from guys who have time to sit in front of their computers and log over 8,000 and 16,000 posts respectively. So there you have it folks. Tomorrow's post apocalyptic headline...

    You are officially obese AND lazy if you buy and ARF. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PICK-UP A TRANSMITTER IF WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO FLY DIDN'T ARRIVE AT YOUR HOME AS A PILE OF STICKS.

    Boy, you can't fix stupid and now I guess you can't fix ignorant...

    BTW, I know a guy who's sitting at home, building all day, collecting government checks instead of trying to find a job. But... I guess he's not lazy because he's building airplanes...
    Once you start slinging the ''ignorant and stupid'' and the ''post count'' trash at an internet forum..you've demonstrated that you've got nothing of substance to add.
    Twisting other's words is another tactic that reflects poorly.
    Ah... I see. Then why don't you help us understand "Another undisputable fact is that obesity and laziness go hand in hand" and "The ARF Culture is simply a reflection of this ugly truth." It seems to me that you're drawing a parallel that people who choose to fly ARFs must be lazy. And since laziness and obesity "go hand in hand" - your words - the ARF flyer is also likely to be fat. I guess this is the "culture" you're speaking of. Doesn't seem like a twisting of words to me. But then again, guys like you are always "misunderstood." Right?

    Never underestimate the importance of altitude...

  4. #229
    RCU Forum Manager/Admin RCKen's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    Ok guys, let me throw in a little advice here. I suggest that quite a few people put their attitudes in neutral before I start handing out some "time outs". If you can't discuss this issue without resorting to attacking others in the thread then I suggest that you refrain from entering into the discussion. Because if I see any more or these posts I will step in and start putting people in a time out. The choice is of course entirely up to you, but please don't think that I won't take actions.
    Ken
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  5. #230
    combatpigg's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?


    ORIGINAL: fly24-7


    ORIGINAL: combatpigg


    ORIGINAL: fly24-7


    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

    Well, I guess it's time to stir the pot a little. Those that make excuses for not building are hiding the root cause. Laziness.

    Bill, Waco Brother #1

    ORIGINAL: combatpigg

    I think Stickbuilder's assessment is a generalisation that has a lot of truth behind it.
    This generation of Americans is [collectively] the most obese group of folks in the history of mankind.
    This is an undisputable fact.
    Another undisputable fact is that obesity and laziness go hand in hand. They both work in a vicious circle to feed one another.
    The ARF Culture is simply a reflection of this ugly truth.
    If you think this observation doesn't apply to you...then good!
    Interesting statements from guys who have time to sit in front of their computers and log over 8,000 and 16,000 posts respectively. So there you have it folks. Tomorrow's post apocalyptic headline...

    You are officially obese AND lazy if you buy and ARF. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PICK-UP A TRANSMITTER IF WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO FLY DIDN'T ARRIVE AT YOUR HOME AS A PILE OF STICKS.

    Boy, you can't fix stupid and now I guess you can't fix ignorant...

    BTW, I know a guy who's sitting at home, building all day, collecting government checks instead of trying to find a job. But... I guess he's not lazy because he's building airplanes...
    Once you start slinging the ''ignorant and stupid'' and the ''post count'' trash at an internet forum..you've demonstrated that you've got nothing of substance to add.
    Twisting other's words is another tactic that reflects poorly.
    Ah... I see. Then why don't you help us understand ''Another undisputable fact is that obesity and laziness go hand in hand'' and ''The ARF Culture is simply a reflection of this ugly truth.'' It seems to me that you're drawing a parallel that people who choose to fly ARFs must be lazy. And since laziness and obesity ''go hand in hand'' - your words - the ARF flyer is also likely to be fat. I guess this is the ''culture'' you're speaking of. Doesn't seem like a twisting of words to me. But then again, guys like you are always ''misunderstood.'' Right?

    1...Do you not think that obesity numbers are higher than ever...approaching 50% of America..?
    2...Do you not think that obesity contributes to laziness..and visa versa?
    3...Do you think that the typical American of today expends as much energy everyday as the typical American of 40-50 years ago..?
    4...Do you think that the RC hobby culture is totally immune / exempt from these effects?

    address/answer each of these questions directly with no spin.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  6. #231
    GallopingGhostler's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    ORIGINAL: RCKen Ok guys, let me throw in a little advice here. I suggest that quite a few people put their attitudes in neutral before I start handing out some ''time outs''. If you can't discuss this issue without resorting to attacking others in the thread then I suggest that you refrain from entering into the discussion. Because if I see any more or these posts I will step in and start putting people in a time out. The choice is of course entirely up to you, but please don't think that I won't take actions.
    Β*
    Ken
    RCKen, I am glad that someone is moderating rcuniverse.com

    Recently I requested and was granted account closure on another well known modeling forum and cancelled membership two long term motorcycle forums I previously enjoyed, just because it was difficult to have normal discussions without someone having the in your face insulting attitudes. Thanks.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  7. #232

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    I prefer building over arfs any day. Makes the world go away when I sit at the building table with an adult beverage working. Usually in the Winter, when I build, the wood stove and TV is going making it quite comfortable in the man cave. Oh, did I mention retirement is all it's cracked up to be. Carry on.

  8. #233

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    I havent given up building, but I havent built in a couple years because...
    1. Swap Meets, I have been able to buy great kit built aircraft at an exceptionally great price (less than the cost of the kit), they can then be recovered to fit my taste.
    2. I spent 3 years on each of the last two planes I built, the last one we took to Top Gun, 6 years is a long time to spend in the shop, ready for a change.
    I will be building again soon because...
    1. The plane I want is not available in ARF or kit to my liking so I will Build a DH-4 the size I want soon.
    2. The other plane I want, there is no ki9t made of it, so I will build it from the few pictures that exist of the aircraft.
    Live to Love and laugh, anything else is rubbish!
    A citizen of the universe

  9. #234
    GallopingGhostler's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    ORIGINAL: tenacious101010I will be building again soon because... 1. The plane I want is not available in ARF or kit to my liking so I will Build a DH-4 the size I want soon. 2. The other plane I want, there is no kit made of it, so I will build it from the few pictures that exist of the aircraft.
    I have to concur with you there, tenacious. There are models that are not offered in ARF or kit form, such as say, Nick Ziroli's 3 channel .40 sized Eindecker of the 1960's. Then take the British Short Seamew. There's no kits of this plane.

    The nice things about scaling software is that I can take a kit from somewhere that has already been scanned in, and rescale it to a size to fit my engines or desired size not else offered. Then also, there are many CL plans, but comparatively little CL kitting. I was able to take a Midwest P-63 King Cobra 33" span profile CL for .19 and scale it to 28" for a Gilbert .11 CL engine.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  10. #235
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    A bunch of us still build. We hang out in the kit building forum, and some others.
    Don S

  11. #236
    Moderator CGRetired's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    ORIGINAL: mike31

    I prefer building over arfs any day. Makes the world go away when I sit at the building table with an adult beverage working. Usually in the Winter, when I build, the wood stove and TV is going making it quite comfortable in the man cave....
    Mike:

    Many of us do. I have a couple of kits sitting in the background that I would love to work on. However, I work. Some of us are single and are self supporting. That means that we do the dishes, the wash, clean the house, and so on... So, the way it is, with my schedule, ARFs work. I put them together, I fly them, I relax, I enjoy my day, and then I go home with a smile on my face. What more is there to life

    it may not be the same with some others, but that's the way it is. I am not lazy.. I get up at 4:45 am and get home at about 5 pm. Then I do what needs to be done, then I prepare and eat dinner, feed the cats, dump the trash, then I sit down and relax. I try to take in the news, and do whatever needs to be done. By the time I'm done, it's about 9 PM.. and to get a good night's sleep, I hit the hay. Then it starts over again at 4:45 am.

    I don't doubt that many folks are in the same situation as I am. Regardless of my Coast Guard retirement, I still work to support my lifestyle, which includes RC flying.

    CGr
    Skylark 70 - OS .75 AX; Excelleron 90 - OS 1.20 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; And, I still fly my trainer, Hanger 9 Alpha - OS .46 FX! Some electrics. Airtronics RD8000 - Spektrum DX7 - DX6i. AMA 705964.
    Semper Paratus!

  12. #237
    Old Fart's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?


    ORIGINAL: GaryHarris

    Well, I got a plane to build. It's getting way to philosophical for me here.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH-_9cwdLug[/youtube]
    Now heres an excercise routine with a harmonica that i could watch for hours
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  13. #238

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    There are models that are not offered in ARF or kit form, such as say, Nick Ziroli's 3 channel .40 sized Eindecker of the 1960's.
    Nick Ziroli's Eindecker and British Saulnier that were presented in Flying Models in the late '60's were also kitted by Major Model and Manufacturing (I think that was a Zirloi company). They were designed for GG to three channel proportional with a .35 engine. Both had 53" wingspans and 550 sq. in., so only slight details were different.

    I had the Saulnier around 1971 with a 3 channel Cannon proportional and the huge KPS-9 servos. It flew pretty good with REM, but had one interesting trait when flown inverted. Depending on the speed, Rudder would turn the airplane left with left stick, until it was flown slower. Then left rudder would make it turn right. Then there was a throttle setting in the middle where I didn't know which way it would turn.

    I always wanted another Saulnier or the Eindecker, since I was a low time pilot back then. I eventually found both on Ebray, back before prices went out of sight. One of these days.......
    - Supplementary insipid innocuous inane vacuous proclamation

  14. #239
    RCU Forum Manager/Admin RCKen's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    It has been pointed out to me that there is very little in this thread that has to do with Beginners in our hobby. And I agree, this thread has nothing to do with Beginner's. Therefore I am moving the thread out of the Beginner's forum and placing it in The Clubhouse forum, which is a better place for this type of discussion to take place.

    Ken
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  15. #240
    GallopingGhostler's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    ORIGINAL: HighPlains Nick Ziroli's Eindecker and British Saulnier that were presented in Flying Models in the late '60's were also kitted by Major Model and Manufacturing (I think that was a Zirloi company). They were designed for GG to three channel proportional with a .35 engine. Both had 53'' wingspans and 550 sq. in., so only slight details were different.
    I purchased the Eindecker plans from FM some time back, with the hopes of building it some day. Now that I am retired, I'll have more time to pursue that. I didn't know they were intended to possibly have galloping ghost controls. The Eindecker with its constant chord wings and boxy fuselage looked like it would be an easy to scratch build model, and a good sport flier.

    I had the Saulnier around 1971 with a 3 channel Cannon proportional and the huge KPS-9 servos. It flew pretty good with REM, but had one interesting trait when flown inverted. Depending on the speed, Rudder would turn the airplane left with left stick, until it was flown slower. Then left rudder would make it turn right. Then there was a throttle setting in the middle where I didn't know which way it would turn.
    Yes, that is an interesting trait. I wonder if it were a flat wing (without dihedral and with ailerons), it would have behaved the same.

    I always wanted another Saulnier or the Eindecker, since I was a low time pilot back then. I eventually found both on Ebray, back before prices went out of sight. One of these days.......
    When you say one of these days, do you mean to construct them?
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  16. #241

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    Yes, one of these days I will have to build them, though it may be more of a scratch build to keep the kits. They didn't have a lot of dihedral, though upright the control with the rudder was positive. It was maybe the forth or fifth RC model I had, so I was still getting my flying together at the time. I had a Falcon 56, Showmaster, Schoolmaster, and a Midwest Nieuport 17 leading up to the Saulnier. Each one taught me alot about what not to do. I've got another Falcon half built, and the Schoolmaster will be an easy scratch build, so I guess I am repeating my youth 40 years later.

    Did you ever read the FM article on either model? The Eindecker issue has a great picture of Lou Andrews on the cover with his orginal Aeromaster. I kind of liked that the same guys had design after design published in FM back then. You got a bit of sense of who they were. I met Nick once at a vintage event back in Pennsylvania about a decade ago. I liked his Pirate III design and he admitted that he always wanted to scale it up a bit.
    - Supplementary insipid innocuous inane vacuous proclamation

  17. #242

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    +10 I don't see any sticks in that glass fuse so wouldn't that be an ARF in the purists venacular?





    ORIGINAL: sensei

    He may now tell you about how he built a Heathkit radio and receiver, big deal allot of us did that back in the day. Thank god those days are gone. Hey there Kit Builder, did you build this composite fuse? If you ask me, you might be getting a little LAZY because that fuse looks like it was ARF built for you...

    Bob
    \"Q\" If you could have one super power what would it be?
    \"A\" The ability to leap tall blondes without them screaming

  18. #243

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    Sorry what did I miss I was busy mixing up a batch of beer brew so I can wait six months to drink it LOL You've got a pretty polluted sense of the world my friend , My freezer is full of Deer meat, my bills are paid, I work over 80 hours a week and I only weigh like what maybe 150 pounds soakin wet and very rarely watch TV, somehow in your wild fantastic grip of reality I'm somehow lazy because I don't stick build everything I fly ? Yes I"m addressing you personally and asking, you given the time restraints I and many others have , what is one to do to lift this label of LAZY and obese you have selfishly imposed on everyone who doesn't abide by your vision of how things should be, build from midnight and 2 am only to get up at 430 am to go to work just to be on your favs list, I'll pass thanks, So let me get this straight because you somehow manage to find the time to build and others don't that makes them lazy and obese and because your schedule permits you to do that then theres no reason anybody else should have a reason not too? because if thats the case you lead a very one dimensional existence with absolutely no knowledge of the world around you





    ORIGINAL: combatpigg

    ORIGINAL: 804
    The problem with your theory is that you are taking 2 general trends (the rise of ARFS, and the rise in obesity) and linking them together in a 1 to 1 relationship based on
    the mistaken notion that obesity is always or mostly caused by laziness.

    Look, use the brain you were born with and understand that ''the man of today'' in his workaday life uses less physical exertion to get things done( efficiency) that the man of the past.
    That does not mean modern man is lazy, it just means we work in different ways.
    And, ARFS are a more efficient way to utilize a busy man's time to enjoy a pastime.

    If you can't put those thought together in your head, and understand how simplistic your reasoning is,
    and how insulting it is, then there is nothing more to be said.
    Yes, building an airplane takes way more physical effort than wallowing around in front of your TV set waiting for your ARF to arrive.
    Modern conveniences like power tools, business machines, etc. contribute to Man's overall laziness. I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade here. This fact causes me no distress to admit.
    If you want to stick your head in the sand, fine. It's people with your mindset who brought us the ''Courtesy Runner'' in Little League games for the kids who are too obese to run the bases for themselves.
    It's people like you who reenforce the mentality that this is OK.
    It's people like me who say that this is not OK, that the little blubber butt is the one who needs a ''Coutesy Runner'' about as much as he needs to gorge himself on another Happy Meal.
    What a joke.
    [/quote]




    \"Q\" If you could have one super power what would it be?
    \"A\" The ability to leap tall blondes without them screaming

  19. #244
    Bill G's Avatar
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    One of the reasons people don't build as much, is that they can get so much of what they want off the shelf. For me, the excitement of building is being able to have subjects that nobody else has. I remember when I first got started in this not all that long ago, you could get maybe a P51 or a Corsair ARF, but you would be lucky to even find a P38 which is still historically quite famous. Now they have finally worn out the most popular subjects, and some oddball subjects are starting to appear as ARFs. Unless you are an individualist who likes having the unusual, you can pretty much get whatever you want now. Planes like my little 24" Herr Gee Bee that had to be built a few years ago, can now be found as RTFs made by several manufacturers. That has me to the point now where I'm building a Miles Aerovan, that I doubt will be ARFed. The same goes for the last few builds, the Avro Type F with wing warping, Heston Phoenix, and Dornier Gs.

  20. #245
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    I still reckon the harmonica has something going for it
    Watch out for the ground eh?

  21. #246

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    In general, folks have more disposable income to devote to hobbies and flying models is a resonable means of dispposing of said funds. It has also be said that we live in a tome when instant gratification is way too slow.

    Mele Kalikimaka
    H. Michael Harrington
    AMA 20640, Leader Member, CD

  22. #247

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?


    ORIGINAL: combatpigg

    ORIGINAL: 804
    The problem with your theory is that you are taking 2 general trends (the rise of ARFS, and the rise in obesity) and linking them together in a 1 to 1 relationship based on
    the mistaken notion that obesity is always or mostly caused by laziness.

    Look, use the brain you were born with and understand that ''the man of today'' in his workaday life uses less physical exertion to get things done( efficiency) that the man of the past.
    That does not mean modern man is lazy, it just means we work in different ways.
    And, ARFS are a more efficient way to utilize a busy man's time to enjoy a pastime.

    If you can't put those thought together in your head, and understand how simplistic your reasoning is,
    and how insulting it is, then there is nothing more to be said.
    Yes, building an airplane takes way more physical effort than wallowing around in front of your TV set waiting for your ARF to arrive.
    Bad analogy.
    Assembling an Arf would take just as much physical effort, per unit of time, as building a kit. It is just that I could build many more arfs in that unit of time.
    And really, building kits or Arfs, as a measure of physical effort (calories expended) is laughable.

    Modern conveniences like power tools, business machines, etc. contribute to Man's overall laziness.
    No! They simply make work more efficient. If you are busy, you are busy, no matter which tools you choose to use.
    Your assertion is ridiculous.


    If you want to stick your head in the sand, fine. It's people with your mindset who brought us the ''Courtesy Runner'' in Little League games for the kids who are too obese to run the bases for themselves.
    It's people like you who reenforce the mentality that this is OK.
    It's people like me who say that this is not OK, that the little blubber butt is the one who needs a ''Coutesy Runner'' about as much as he needs to gorge himself on another Happy Meal.
    What a joke.
    I played sports all my life, played basketball up into my mid-forties, I still mountain-bike and ride dirt-bikes. I had nothing to do with "courtesy runners", and don't approve of the idea,
    and none of your nonsense about it has anything to do with folks who find it more efficient to choose arfs over kits.

    [/quote]



  23. #248

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    ARFs will eventually kill the hobby.I see guys getting started in the hobby,buy only ARFs and burn out after 2 years.They believe that flying is the only aspect of the hobby.As soon as they learn how to fly-there is no more challenge and they quit.They will never realize that most of the real enjoyment and challenge is in the building. We have several 80 year old flyers at our club that have all built scale planes and are just as enthusiastic as the newbies.Thats what you won t see in the next 30 yearsolder club members. Because the guys starting the hobby now and who buy ARFs only will leave the hobby prematurelythey won t stay indefinately into their 80s.

  24. #249

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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?

    Arfs will never kill the hobby.

  25. #250
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    RE: Why don't many people build RC airplane kits anymore?


    ORIGINAL: Sgt Shay
    Arfs will never kill the hobby.
    +1

    I don't usually contribute to these threads, someone will probably parse out my post and take it apart, word by word. I wonder if the same happened in football discussions when the helmet was introduced. I seem to recall similar discussion when hockey goalies started wearing a face mask. You will note, both sports still enjoy considerable participation.

    There was a time when machine made cigarettes were derided by the "roll-your-own" contingent. I believe the industry is still cranking out tailor made and roll-your-own product, despite even more harsh attacks from the health nuts

    Some activities just never die. You can still buy buggy whips, if you look around.

    Carry on.
    Dave Olson
    The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him GKChesterton


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