Bill Vargas

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44556695...ife/?gt1=43001



BV

Kmot

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This is just awful. []

I have been to the Reno air races one time. It is a celebration of everything aviation and in particular the unlimited warbirds. I have wondered myself about what would be the result if the planes coming out of turn four towards the crowds had an incident. This is so sad........

MetallicaJunkie

Very sad day, my heart goes out to all those impacted by this tragedy

scale only 4 me

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We may never know the cause of this one,,, Sad whatever the cause.

Sure has been a rough couple years in Aviation Entertainment

JL1

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It appears to have been a mechanical failure in the tail section. My guess is flutter. When the tail starts coming apart it does not matter how old you are.

KW_Counter

I have a friend, a seasoned pilot and instructor, who saw it.
I appeared to be mechanical failure in the tail section.
Nothing to do with age.
My heart is out to all who were there,
especially those who lost loved ones.
KW_Counter

Prairie Mike

metalica
How old are you??
Age (experience) has nothing, NOTHING, to do with this tragedy. If a pilot passes his physical, he's as good as anyone.
You'll see as you grow up and get older. Society will turn on you. That's why we seasoned citizens enjoy ourselves playing with our toy airplanes. We don't have to compete with the fast mover superstar, who isn't by the way, and we don't have to try to climb over those under us and we don't have to be concerned with back stabbers at work. We can just enjoy life and at a slower pace. We don't have to beat the guy next to us to the next stop light. Winning is EVERYTHING to the young (and foolish), but as you age it will lessen (hopefully) and life becomes more meaningful and entertaining
I vowed to never grow up, but will grow old. It's an attitude.
So the fact that the pilot was 70 has NOTHING to do with this!

Prairie Mike

Admin, please delete my post
It was an uncalled for rant.
besides that, I got Jimmy Leeward's age wrong.

jester_s1

It wasn't flutter. One article said that something came off of the tail, possibly a trim tab. If that's the case (very plausible) then it was a maintenence/metal fatigue issue. I've always been nervous about pilots flying these old airplanes at top speed like that. No matter how good the maintenance is, the metal itself has a service life. I mean, nobody takes an all original '57 Chevy to a Nascar track anymore do they? As cool as it is to see a historic fighter going full throttle like they used to, maybe it's time for them to be flown gently for exhibition purposes and let recently manufactured planes be pushed to their limits.

DavidAgar

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This is indeed tragic.... Thoughts to all those involved. Dave

rcdude7

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I caught this story on Drudge, makes me feel ill to read about it.

As a mechanic, I can't help but wonder who inspects these old planes flight control systems for integrity, and how often it is done. Not to try and place blame, but this is some real vintage hardware here and it is really pushed to the limits of design.

scottrc

The age of the pilot and the age of the plane should not be discussed until the NTSB report comes out. Metal fatigue and skips in maintanece procedures could be culprits no matter how old the plane is. Same goes with how the body reacts to aerobatics. With talk like what is going on here, lets just push the AMA to require all RC pilots in the unlimited and turbine catagories, or how about all RC pilots, to be under the ripe old age of 45and all planes must be no older than 1 yr and made of foam. How come nobody brought up Bryan Jensens age after his crash?

Sorry for the rant, just that even at 40 I am seeing age discrimination and it is pissing me off to no end.

freakingfast

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This saddened and shocked me. My thoughts are to those involved.

There are always those that will say "something should be done to make this safer or stop events like this". The fact is, life must have some danger or we would die of boredom.

I'm sure that all officials and participants weighed all criteria known at the time to allow the event to proceed with a reasonable balance of safety and exposure for all attendees.
The last thing these pilots would do is recklessly endanger the public.

All motor sports are dangerous to anyone in the vicinity, I site drag car/boats, rally cars, Baja and Grand Prix. Yes you could make it safer, but the spectators would be so much removed from the event that no one would bother to attend. I's all about balance. I's still so very sad it happened.

rcphotog

As a 17 year veteran Reno race fan and former P-51 crew chief for Clay Lacy, I would like to suggest that we refrain from kneejerk reactions leading to the spread of mis-information and rumors.

Let the NTSB do their job and hope for a unbiased, truthfull and factual report from which then we can make senseable decissions on moving forward with the future of pylon air racing. This is not the end of anything (yet) but only the beginning of a needed and nessesary process of insightfull evaluation.

I always new that there was the possibility of an accident of this type but I still loved going to the races. As said before, living life is a balance.

I've put together a collage of photos found on the net for the purpose of historical study about the Galloping Ghost. These are only a few of the many paint schemes applied over the years.

Ken.

noveldoc

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He was only a few yards from hitting smack in the crowded grandstands.

Looks like someone needs to look at the seating arrangements and safety.  Airplanes sometimes fail and even the best pilots can sometimes err.

Tom

AmishWarlord

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Damn another one today in West Virginia.

This year sucks for airshows and races.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20107788.shtml

AmishWarlord

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I don't see where there is much you can do, they are flying over head and doing 400MPH.

Only safe seating would be 10 miles away in underground reinforced concrete bunkers.

Iron Dog

I've seen three pictures that show that in the final seconds Jimmy's tail wheel is down, yet the mains are still fully retracted. Everyone is focused on the elevator trim tab and what this does to his ability to control the plane. I can't help but wonder if there are further mechanical issues that are related to also causing the tailwheel to come down independently of the mains. It seems quite possible that there were other mechanical issues/failures going on. Obviously he had his hands full. I too, disagree that this had anything to do with age. Under the circumstances, I think his vast experience was a benefit . . . helping to minimize a casualty rate that could have been even higher.

Campgems

One article showed that the Mustang had the wings shortened by five feet and the ailerons cut down in size from 60" ot 32" for speed improvement. Along with the other modifications to the basic p51, I seriously doubt this was a maintance issue. More speed than the structure could stand though is a possiblity. I can't seem to find that link now, but the pilot said he had the speed, but the modifications hadn't been tested. That isn't and exact quote. I think that clip was taken from his blog. If I can find it again, I'll post the link.

In any case, it is a sad day.

Don

stuntflyr

Jimmy was a victim of G-LOC. Once the airplane started it's uncommanded pitch up, he was unconcious and did nothing but occupy the seat.
The trim tab excited a flutter over the elevator and shook the back end so bad it forced the tailwheel out off of the lock. It probably broke the tie tube between the two elevators, too. The sudden onset of double-digit G load will cause a loss of conciousness to an athlete or an old man. In the pics of the airplane on Yahoo News you can see he is head down, passed out against the panel.

The jerky roll motions come from the airplane's trimmed state now being a bunch of positive G and it is stalling, remember a stall can happen at any attitude and any airspeed.

The same thing happened 12 years ago with Voodoo, when Bob Hanna was pilot. He survived because it was trimmed better and flew around in a shallow bank for a minute at 5000 feet WFO, like a 500 mph free flight model. he had time to come to. The phenolic trim tabs blew off and fluttered the elevators breaking the elevator tie tube and causing a pitch up conservatively estimated at 11 G's. He never raced again.

The trim tabs on GG were supposedly the hottest set-up for the speeds they are running these days. Something excited the flutter and trim tabs are usually the reason.

The whole thing is nothing new nor would it be more than a page three story except for all of us racers greatest fear, someone crashing into the crowd. And, so there it is.

flywilly

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Thanks for an excellent explanation. Considering the violence of the vertical pitch, I'm surprised the wings didn't fold which is a testimony to the structural integrity of the airframe.

One question, in response to issues raised above: how much of the original airframe was actually flying?

My condolences to all involved...[]

rcphotog

[quote]ORIGINAL: flywilly

Thanks for an excellent explanation. Considering the violence of the vertical pitch, I'm surprised the wings didn't fold which is a testimony to the structural integrity of the airframe.

One question, in response to issues raised above: how much of the original airframe was actually flying?



How much of the original wartime metal was on the airframe?.....most of the internal structure ie; bulkheads, longerons, wing ribs and wing spars is usually in good enough condition to go on living but much of the outter "skin" is replaced throughout the years of private ownership.

This particular P-51 was put down during a race ( I believe in '88 ) on an emergency runway not often used or mantained and was badly "bent" during a ground-loop. I was there and there were 5 planes calling "mayday" in a single race and one after the other landing anywhere they could.

So, this plane has had much of the "skin" replaced. Not to mention the extensive modifications on both airframe and engine.
Ken.

Tired Old Man

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None of the warbird racers have been subjected to shoddy maintenance. Most of them have but a little of the orignial aircraft still affixed. Air racing is a rich man's game so only those that can afford to give it all it deserves participate in the upper end of the activity.

eddieC

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A good example of an uninformed poster guessing what went wrong. Please folks, save the guesstimations. There are some VERY knowledgeable people on here, like rcphotog and stuntflyr, so wait for their responses.  These birds are very highly modified, some of the -51's are using modded Learjet wings in fact, and the mods are created by some of the most talented aero engineers and built by the best builders and mechanics in the business. Few of the original parts are used on some of these aircraft. 

I've had more than a couple full-scale trim tab/elevator system failures, and the stick/yoke can be snatched out of your grip with amazing force and speed. The smallest item failing can lead to a serious failure in a heartbeat.

That said, seeing the pilot slumped forward is a chilling indicator. My sincere condolences to the families and friends involved.

KW_Counter

Amish War Lord Stated:
I don't see where there is much you can do, they are flying over head and doing 400MPH.
Only safe seating would be 10 miles away in underground reinforced concrete bunkers.

Obiviously you have not been to the Reno Air Races (I have); when they are racing they do NOT
fly over the spectators heads. The only reason GG was overhead was because of the
problem he was facing!

I'm anxious to hear the NTSB's final report to know what happened to the best of their judgement.

KW_Counter