mvarzoni

I've decided to write this just to check with you all if we share same opnion or not.

I've teached many beginners how to pilot their models.
Some takes about 10 lessons, some a little more and few a little less...
Every student starts with same high-wing trainer and I never crashed any student's airplane.
Well, although they are flying their very basic and limited airmodel, I can clearly see their progress.
The problem begins when they are solo and stars to change from one airmodel to another... They jumps from a high wing to a low wing, and all of a sudden they show up with an extra, them with a laser, them an Edge.
I dont see it as a progress, I would say they are moving horizontaly and most of time backwards, because when they are almost getting used to a model behavior, they try new tricks and crash...
It seens like people are ashamed to spend time flying just "to fell the bird". I have often seen people that never had an acro before, trying everything they saw on youtube and the result is panic and crash. Of course the poor radio is guilt, never the pilot inexperience, but this is a theme for another topic.
I believe we need to spend about 5 or 6 flight just to trim the airplane. after that, learn how it behaves on most of conditions and it takes another 7 or 8 flights.
Also, like I said before, when they are almost used to a certain airmodel, they crash and instead of buy same model, they buy a different one... and on my humble opinion, it delays the learning progress.
And just to finish my argumentation, people around you, do they influence your flight style? I have visited too many flying fields, after my old field were closed, and I've noticed that places where the majority flies big birds, the newbies tries their best and spend lots of money for buying a big bird. Places where the majority fly SPADS or old and dangeours or even small trainners, all the newbies follows their steps.

Please let me know your opinion.
Thank you
Mauricio V.

flyinwalenda

My Feedback: (5)

Well a lot of the "I want it now" mentality is prevalent in young and older pilots starting out. Some will listen to you others just have to find out the hard way. There's not much you can do to change that. If most listened they wouldn't get frustrated and wouldn't quit.
Even then there are some who catch on quickly and can easily handle the next step while some seem to take a long time mastering the simple things. When I was learning I was told to build a Stick for my next plane after the trainer and when I crashed it to fix it or build another one until I got better . After about 3 Sticks I learned a lot and the move over to low wings was easy, I give that same recommendation to new pilots who seem to be struggling a little, some listened and did well.

ES CONTROL

Each person is different .   (I am not an instructor. but get to madin first timers planes from time to time)

Edwin

My Feedback: (2)

I see the same as you Mauricio. If they solo in spring, I try to get them to stick with the trainer until fall. I show them they can do quite a few aerobatics with it. My second plane top suggestion is an ugly stick (glow or electric). OR at lease some low wing sport plane like the 4-Star, Super Sportster, or something along that line. But its not unusual for them to jump into something out of there skill set with the same results you see. Most of my students solo in about 30 to 40 flights. I teach to a program and progress to the next stage when they are able. After solo, I stick with them a little while teaching how to handle emergencies. I usually take it up high, roll inverted into a spin, kill the engine and give control back to them. Never fails, they freeze the first few times that happens. But its good to train them on an automatic response.
Edwin

guver

My Feedback: (325)

I'm not sure if I am agreeing or disagreeing with this progression since I didn't have an instructor or coach. The people on this forum have been my source of help. I don't and didn't really have a rigid plan , but it seems that my first season was the "high wing trainer" season. I started in June I think. My second season I keep telling myself is the "sport plane" season.

1st season : I bought over a dozen easy to fly planes and there seemed a few that I just couldn't get going. They are shelved. My first 2 planes that I was very comfortable with finally went crashed and I wouldn't think of buying the same model again. I did replace 1 of them for my first student. All rtf planes and just a few repairs since I am learning that too.

Thread I started in season 1 http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10..._1/key_/tm.htm

2nd season : I am going crazy and buying lower wing sport planes and larger more powerful ones, even a few 3-D ones. I'm going to have a blast in season 2 , learn a lot even if I am by myself again. I'm sure if I get to teach this one student I'll benefit more than He. I already cheated and flew my sportster twice before season started. I've already got 5 planes and I know I am ready to fly them. I also have a few that I know I'm not good enough to fly yet.


I think the key part of your question is about when to change airframes or how often. I enjoyed having a number of different choices and think that it was good for me. In another sense it isn't good either. I know one thing , it's hard to keep track of trims, repairs, changes, weights, radios, batts, ect. It gives me some radio issues too and takes up a lot of space. In fact I have to put together my elektro-stik , but first I need another TX and a new plane rack to store it ,Doh. [X(]

jester_s1

I think you've made some excellent observations, mvarzoni. It takes a lot of flight to really know a plane. That goes beyond having the trims set for level flight and getting the throws and CG right. Knowing the plane means knowing how it responds in all maneuvers that you like to do, knowing how it reacts to various wind conditions, knowing how it stalls, and knowing what it takes to recover from various positions. I've noticed at the field that the really impressive pilots don't show up with 8 different planes every time, and they don't have a new bird every week either (or every year for some of them). They have a manageable hangar of well set up planes that they really know and they fly them right. IMO, 60-70% of good flying is simply knowing your plane and how it's going to respond to your control inputs.

mvarzoni

Guver, You are one good exemple, you did not say why you had no instructor, was it a choice? lucky you that have all the money to buy many new and/or diferent.
Unfortunatelly every thing in brazil cost 4 time as it costs in U.S.
Just to let you know, a Greatplanes 120cc ugly stick costs about 600 dollars, a single gallon of byron 20/20 costs about 60,00 dollars.
Therefore, an average worker can not afford for the hobby and quit it.
Those who can afford and keep changing, never become real good on anything...

Jester, thank you for your words, we have exacly the same thinking.
I see no problem of flying same model for a whole season, althoug we have no seasons in Brasil. here we can fly all year long...
Flying same plane and getting masterized on it, is more interesting them having dozens and be a newbie forever!

Mauricio

guver

My Feedback: (325)

Well, thanks for saying so. I sure wouldn't recommend many to travel the road I did. In fact I am insisting my student use the sim and fly with me first. It just worked out very well for me to be able to do it at home , and believe me I am on a budget. I'm about as cheap as they come.

I like the size electrics that I have now and at least I do have enough sense to leave my Hobbico Edge 540T , Sequence, Rifle , and Focke-Wulf in the box for now. I think I could fly them , but why get ahead of myself until I get bored with what I have now.

My first 3-4 planes are quite boring me to death , I am ready for sport planes. (I hope)

I would also point out that there are some things I may have missed on the way being alone. There are things I have missed and don;t even know it yet. My landings and building skills really need work.

I can sure see the point to your thread here and appreciate it very much.

jester_s1

Kudos to you guver for being determined enough to do the hobby even through setbacks, but your experience is a perfect example of why taking it slow and using an instructor is the best method. No flyer should be on his 4th airplane before starting to fly sport models, and certainly shouldn't still be figuring out landings at that point. That's not a knock on you to be clear, just an illustration that getting help from an experienced pilot prevents a lot of simple mistakes. But that's the beauty of the hobby- as long as you are having a good time and can afford it and are safe, you can do it any way you want. You can only own one model and fly it for years or you can buy a new one every week and leave it in the dumpster at the end of the day. Both extremes and all points in between are perfectly acceptable as long as you're having a good time.

guver

My Feedback: (325)

All my planes are on racks , not in a dumpster. My first decent plane has been rebuilt for my student (with a new fuse). My second plane also has a cracked fuse and has been robbed for parts for it's replacement. It's back in the box and is cheaper to replace than to fix. I guess one could have 1 trainer for a time. I chose to get 12 of them. I buy all of them by choice , am compulsive that way. I don't see anything wrong with having 12 "beginner" planes at a time (other than what has been mentioned above)

Heck, I've already got 6 sportier ones for next season. As soon as the weather breaks I don't see me flying the trainer type planes a lot. I do need some help with a few though. It seems they should be pretty easy to fly , but I can't seem to keep them going very well. I think my landings aren't so much of my skill lacking as it is my terrain. I'm really considering putting in a flat so I can take off and land well. I wonder if even a great pilot can land in my back grass. Soon I may have the opportunity to find out. None of my planes will take off where I fly, they just sit there WOT and won't hardly move. The grass is too rough and bumpy for the size planes I use.

I'm getting my most powerful plane ready (an electro-stik) and I hope that maybe it will take off and land in my area.

mvarzoni

have you ever considered a club?
Or even in last case, an empt road?

guver

My Feedback: (325)

Another point for sticking with just one plane argument.

It is so hard to keep track of what change did I do last and by the time I get to flying it I can easily forget what I did if I don't write it down. In otherwords many of my flights are "first on a particular set-up" or a "trimming" or "adjusting" flight. I only have a few that I just don't touch the set-up anymore cuz I'm happy with them.

Hmm, here they are.

Sensei other than removing weight and shifting batery around a bit I leave it alone
48" piper gets left alone , maybe shift CG or change props.
SkyFly Max gets left alone and just enjoyed.
Switch is left alone
Flylite is left alone
Falcon is left alone
Super sportster only has 2 flights , but is left alone. I like it as is.

guver

My Feedback: (325)

Yes, I'd like to join a club for next year. I'm very content with walking out back with a plane in hand though right now. You mean I'd have to actually load up the car and drive somewhere? haha.

schleppenbach_chris

personally im going to be getting into nitro planes soon as i get my tax return back ive had a couple really cheap electrics before and now im planning on buying two different planes a great planes anniversary cub and a top flite p-51 mustang and i dont think im gonna be buying any other plane for quite a long time as im content just getting these two so until they dont fly no more these will be the only 2 planes i own!!!

mvarzoni

schleppenbach_chris, THere are people with much more experience than me, with many different opnion, but if I could give you one simple advice, for your first plane, buy an Hobbico AVISTAR or something like that. and for second plane a Great plane Ugly Stick. You will not regret.

P-51? I have a Great Plane p-51, hang on my wall, two flights only...
the first flight were terrible, lots of wing stalls.
Second flight, were just to confirm the first..
waste of money...

flycatch

My Feedback: (26)

I got on thing from your post and that was your new pilots have alot of money to spend on the hobby. If you have the moneyI don't see anything wrong with buyings something that you like and can fly. I'm not into 3D machine but I did fly pattern and now I fly what I like. Another thing you mentioned that these same individuals soloed with minimal flight time and that is a credit to you being the instructor. One last point is the mention of a flight simulator and how it aids the skills of the student pilot and I find this misleading from observing these key board pilots.

mvarzoni

Flycat,
Actually, I just threw many aspects of newbies that I've noticed...
1) Who has money to spend, buy different models (this is not a problem) but they never become a good pilot (this is the problem).
How often do you see warbirds and scale models trying to be flow like a 3d bird? People buys models by taste, apearance, not to attend his flight style.
And of course, those who can not afford, give up on the hobby... unfortunatelly...

2) Simulators helps a lot, I like them... but...
I always strugle to erradicate from key board flyers, the mania of knocking the stick very kickly as like on a videogame.
I keep repeating the mantra NICE AND EASY, NICE AND EASY... Soft and gentle...

3) The Throtle control, in 10 or 15 sessions, the learner will not learn to control the the throtle as they should, what I've seen is:
Full throtle from momment 0, run the runway, nose up, and forget about the throtle stick... most people makes the engine scream like a beast, the consequence is that when for some unwanted reason the engine goes off, they panic because does not knows how to handle stalls...

When I find someone willing to learn indeed, I make them fly real high and kill engine and land, it improves the landing skills.

Mauricio.

rgburrill

Well before we had RCU and the simulators we had rec.models.rc.air - and before that rec.models.rc. The people on their were also extrememly helpful. One thing I learned was that while everyone wants a warbird ASAP it is one of the most difficult to fly. Tip stalls, short tail moments, fast landing speeds, etc. nearly 20 years later I still haven;t flown a warbird - I did build one but sold it before I broke it. I had an Extra but did not like it. Then again, I had an Uproar and just loved it.

mvarzoni

Rgburrill, You got the central idea!

There is no problem if you fly same trainner for 5 or 10 years, the important is to be happy and fly it right!