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  1. #1
    vasek's Avatar
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    Is China getting expensive?

    It used to be China ARFS were poorly made but cheap. They (for most part) ate still poorly made (mod this, mode that, re-glue the stab...) but the prices are getting up there with the quality Arfs. Is that a new trend?

    Remember: Speed is life!

  2. #2
    countilaw's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    I wouldn't say the quality is getting better. The prices maybe getting higher, but that's to be expected. If you are the only company manufacturing a product, (because you ran everyone else out of business) you can charge a higher price for it. It's called, supply and demand. We've let all our jobs and manufacturing go to China because they could produce it for less with cheap labor,less Government regulation and no Unions. Now that all the American manufacturers have since sent all their manufacturing to China (called Out Sourcing), China makes the rules.

    Now it's time for China to become the industrialized nation of the world, just like America was in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's.

    The "Made in America" logo is getting harder to find anymore.

    Frank
    AMA #5810
    CPA # 73
    Contest Director
    AMA Introductory Flight Instructor

  3. #3
    scale only 4 me's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    Home Depot was really cheap when they first hit the scene, then after they push out of business most the mom and pop lumber yards their prices started going up. Now you can't buy a decent 2x4 or sheet of plywood there,, sad really
    You're so smart,, you figured out how to read this!! Or maybe ya just got lucky??

  4. #4
    flyinwalenda's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    They are making a few nice planes here and there but they still churn-out more crap electronics and hardware . Some of the PNP planes coming out ;they did a great job on the airframe but then load it up with garbage hardware&electronics with top rate pricing only to have the buyers dump more and more money into the plane to get it right. That's sad too.
    Brian Ray

  5. #5

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    In the words of the great philosopher Pogo...."We has met the enemy and he is us".

    fliers1
    www.abchobbyshop.com- information

  6. #6
    vasek's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?


    ORIGINAL: fliers1

    In the words of the great philosopher Pogo....
    fliers1
    Is it the same one they put on a stick & fried him? [X(]
    Remember: Speed is life!

  7. #7

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    Talk about garbage electronics, some of the China stuff is hitting the market with 27Mhz electronics.

  8. #8
    AmishWarlord's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    I remember a story about how the US made $5 screw drivers and China made $1 screw drivers that where low quality. People bought the $1 ones. After the US company closed the low quality China made ones went up to $5.

  9. #9

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    Same deal with Walmart ! !
    Too much horsepower- Just right !!!

  10. #10

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    And then they wonder why it's so hard to find a hobby shop that deals in RC aircraft. Some think that the reason is that shop owners were "gouging" customers.
    They are comparing the price of products from China with what hobby shop owners have to price to attempt to make enough money to keep their doors open.

    Now, customers have more or less no choice but to buy from China. Japanese did the same with steel, now look were we are now. Buy American. That is if there is any American manufacturers still in business.

    fliers1
    www.abchobbyshop.com- information

  11. #11

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    It might be too late!!! I sure hope not. With the government putting all kinds of rules & regulations on our American business owners,they don't know what to do !! If the idiots running the government would stop spending faster that they make it, we would have a chance !!!!
    Too much horsepower- Just right !!!

  12. #12

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?


    ORIGINAL: vasek

    It used to be China ARFS were poorly made but cheap. They (for most part) ate still poorly made (mod this, mode that, re-glue the stab...) but the prices are getting up there with the quality Arfs. Is that a new trend?

    Do not really know if it is a new trend or not. You might want to call the USA Olympic Committee and ask them if China's prices are getting up there. Seems like they should know having recently spent all our money on uniforms for the USA Olympic team, that were made in China . [>:]

  13. #13
    AmishWarlord's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    Here is a list of USA companeies from http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/...e=1&print=true

    American Made RC Products
    If it's made in America it's below

    Balsa Kits/Planes

    Aero Craft Limited… www.aerocraftrc.com/index.php
    Aero-Werkes… www.dpcmodels.homestead.com/
    Aerodrome R/C… www.aerodromerc.com/
    Air Flair… www.airflair.com/
    Alien Aircraft Corp…. www.alienaircraft.com/
    Arizona Modelcrafters… www.arizonamodels.com/
    Aspect Aviation… www.aspectaviation.com/
    Balsa USA… www.balsausa.com/html/index.html
    Blazing Wings… www.blazingwings.com/
    BlueJay Airplane Kits… www.bridiairplanes.com/
    BMJR Models… www.bmjrmodels.com/rccatalog.cfm
    Bruce Tharpe Engineering… www.btemodels.com/
    BSD Micro RC… www.bsdmicrorc.com/
    Carden Aircraft… www.carden-aircraft.com/
    Custom Airframes of America… www.customairframes.com/
    Dare Design and Engineering… www.darehobby.com/
    Diamond Dust RC… www.diamonddustrc.com/
    DJ Aerotech… www.djaerotech.com/
    Dumas Models… www.dumasestore.com/
    Dynaflite… www.dynaflite.com/
    Easy Built Models... www.easybuiltmodels.com/
    Electric Aero Modeling… www.eam.net/
    Electroflying Models… www.electroflying.com/
    Fly 2 Build… www.fly2build.com/
    Fun Aero R/C www.funaero.com/
    G&L Hobbies… www.glhobbies.com/
    G & P Sales… www.rcairplane.net/
    Got Gas RC… www.gotgasradiocontrol.com/index.html
    Guillow's Models… www.guillow.com/
    Hobby Hangar… www.hobbyhangar.com/
    Hobby Lobby… www.hobby-lobby.com/telemasters_216_ctg.htm
    House of Balsa… www.houseofbalsa.com/
    Iron Bay Model Company… www.ironbaymodelcompany.com/
    Jtech Laser… www.jtechlaser.com/
    K&A Models… www.kamodels.com/
    Klarichkits… www.klarichkits.com/products.html
    Manzano Laser Works… www.manzanolaser.com/
    Meister Scale… www.meister-scale.com/
    Midwest Products… www.midwestproducts.com/
    Millennium RC… www.millenniumrc.com/
    Mountain Models/Laser Arts… www.mountainmodels.com/
    Ohio Model Products… www.ohiomodelplanes.com/
    Pence Aviation… www.penceaviation.com/
    Precision Aviation Designs… www.bobflies.com/
    Proctor Enterprises… www.proctor-enterprises.com/
    Quality Fiberglass… www.qualityfiberglass.net/
    Radical RC… www.radicalrc.com/
    Savage Light Industries… www.savagelight.com/
    Scale Aero… www.scaleaero.com/buyaero.htm
    SIG Manufacturing… www.sigmfg.com/
    SkyBench Aerotech… www.skybench.com/
    SR Batteries… www.srbatteries.com/kits.htm
    Stevens AeroModel… www.stevensaero.com/home.php
    SwanysHouse… www.swanyshouse.com/
    T&J Models… www.tnjmodels.rchomepage.com/
    Team Duster Designs… www.teamduster.com/
    TMRC Sailplanes… www.tmrcsailplanes.com/
    Top-Flite… www.top-flite.com/airplanes/gold-kits
    Top Notch Products Co…. www.topnotchkits.com/
    Vintage Sailplaner… www.vintagesailplaner.com/index.html
    Warbird kits… www.warbirdkits.com/
    Wing manufacturing… www.wingmfg.com/
    Wingspan Models… www.wingspanmodels.com/
    Yellow Aircraft International… www.yellowaircraft.com/
    Zeke's Park Scale Models… www.parkscalemodels.com/shop/

    Foam Kits/Planes/Wings

    2DogRC… www.2dogrc.com
    3D Foamy… www.3dfoamy.com/
    6mmFly RC… www.6mmflyrc.com/
    Airfoilz… www.airfoilz.com/index.html
    Alpha Foamies… www.alphafoamies.com/
    BSD Micro RC… www.bsdmicrorc.com/
    Charger RC… www.chargerrc.com/
    Dr Johns Laser Services… www.drjohnslaser.com/
    Dream-Flight… www.dream-flight.com/
    DW Foamie… www.dwfoamies.com/
    E-Foamie.com… www.e-foamy.com/
    Electronic Foam Models… www.e-foamies.com/
    Eureka Aircraft Co…. www.eurekaaircraft.com/
    Garrison Aerodrome R/C Models… www.garrisonaerodrome.com/
    Insane Foamies www.insanefoamies.com/
    JK Aerotech... www.jkaerotech.com/
    Fancy Foam… www.fancyfoam.com
    Keith Sparks… www.parkflyerplastics.com/
    Kickass Aircraft… www.kickassaircraft.com/
    Leading Edge Gliders… www.leadingedgegliders.com/
    Model Aero… www.modelaero.com/
    Model Airplane Engineering… www.m-a-e.com/
    Mud Duck Inc…. www.mudduckaviation.com/
    Nico Hobbies… www.nicohobbies.com/store/
    Peck Polymers… www.peck-polymers.com/
    Polecat Aero… www.polecataero.com/products
    Rabid Models… www.rabidmodels.com/
    ********… www.********.com/
    RiteWingRC… www.ritewingrc.com/
    SpeedWings… www.speedwing.net/index.php
    SuperFly RC… www.superflyrc.com/
    Trick R/C… www.zagi.com/
    TufFlight… www.tufflight.com/home.html
    Twisted Hobbies… www.twistedhobbys.com/Twisted_Hobbys.html
    Wing Manufacturing… www.wingmfg.com/
    Wing Warrior… www.hobbypeople.net
    Wowplanes… www.wowplanes.com/
    YardBird RC… www.yardbirdrc.com/

    Combat Airplanes

    TreneffRC… www.treneffrc.com/

    Autogyros/Helicopters/Multi-Rotor

    BlueSkyRC.com… www.blueskyrc.com/
    Flying Balsa… www.flyingbalsa.com/Homepage
    I2RC… www.rc-tek.com/us_store/
    Lite Machines… www.litemachines.com/
    RDLohr's Clearly Superior Products… www.wavelandps.com/clearly/

    Airplane Parts and Pieces

    APC Propellers… www.apcprop.com/
    Dave Brown Products… www.dbproducts.com/
    Dubro… www.dubro.com/
    E-Flightline… www.e-flightline.com/
    Fiberglass Specialties… www.fiberglassspecialtiesinc.com/
    Gene Barton Machining… www.genebarton.com/
    Innov8tive Designs… www.innov8tivedesigns.com/#P11
    Keleo Creations… www.keleo-creations.com/
    Maiden Model Products… www.maidenusammp.com/
    Macs Products… www.macspro.com/
    Model Electronics Corp… www.modelelectronicscorp.com/
    Model Machining Service… www.innerdemon.com/id48.html
    Ohio Superstar Products… www.ohiosuperstar.com/
    Precision Fiberglass Products… www.precision-fiberglass-prod.com/
    RC Sky Diving… www.rcskydiving.com/home.php?cat=426
    RC Super Gear… www.rcsupergear.com/
    Sea Plane Supply… www.seaplanesupply.com/
    Shindin Machine… www.shindinmachine.com/
    Sierra Giant Scale… www.sierragiant.com/
    small parts CNC… www.smallpartscnc.com/
    Solo Props… www.soloprops.com/
    Spring Air Products… www.retracts.com/
    Stan's Fiber Tech… www.stansfibertech.com/
    Sullivan Products… www.sullivanproducts.com/
    TnT Landing Gear Products… www.tntlandinggear.com/
    White Rose Engineering… www.whiteroseeng.com/
    Williams Brothers Plastic Models… www.williamsbrothersmodelproducts.com/
    Windsor Propeller Company… www.masterairscrew.com/
    Zinger Props… www.zingerpropeller.com/


    Sailplanes

    Pacific Glider Works… www.pacificgliderworks.com/index.html
    Pacific Sailplanes www.pacificsailplanes.com/
    Zaerotech… www.zaerotech.com/

    Jets

    Bob Violett Models… www.bvmjets.com/
    Century Jet Models Inc... www.centuryjet.com./
    Electric Jet Factory… www.ejf.com/
    Jet Hangar Hobbies… www.jethangar.com/
    Rich Uravitch… www.richuravitch.com/
    TeeRific Jet Models… www.terrificjets.com/
    Tom Cooks Jet Model Products… www.jetmodelproducts.com/

    Plans/Building Services/LASER Cutting

    AK-Models… www.ak-models.com/lasercutservices.htm
    Alien Aircraft… www.alien-aircraft.com/
    AMA Plans Services… www.modelaircraft.org/plans.aspx
    A.R.D…. www.ardmodels.com/
    Bob Holman Plans… www.bhplans.com/
    Dynamic Balsa… www.dbalsa.com/
    JTECH Laser… www.jtechlaser.com/
    Kellogg Plans… www.kelloggplans.com/
    Laser Lizard… www.laserlizard.com/
    Lazer Works… www.lazer-works.com/
    Mud Duck Inc…. www.mudduckaviation.com/
    Nick Ziroli Plans www.ziroliplans.com/
    Pat's Custom Models… www.patscustom-models.com
    Precision Cut Kits… www.precisioncutkits.com/
    Small Flying Arts… www.smallflyingarts.com/
    Wings on the Web… www.wingsontheweb.com/

    Batteries

    Fromeco… www.fromeco.org/
    MaxAmps… www.maxamps.com/
    Thunder Power RC… www.thunderpowerrc.com/index.html

    Building Supplies

    Bad Brad Graphics… www.badbradgraphics.com/
    Balsa Wood Inc… www.balsawoodinc.com/
    Beacons Adhesive… www.beaconadhesives.com/
    Custom Cut Graphix… www.customcutgraphix.com/
    Callie Graphics… www.callie-graphics.com/
    CFC Graphics… www.cfcgraphics.com/
    The Composite Store… www.cstsales.com/
    Get Stencils… www.getstencils.com/
    HandibondUSA… www.handibond.com/
    Kirby Kustom Graphics… www.angelfire.com/oh2/kirbysgraphics/
    Lonestar Balsa… www.lonestar-balsa.com/
    Mercury Adhesives… www.mercuryadhesives.com/
    Northeastern Scale Lumber,,, www.northeasternscalelumber.com/
    Pink-It... www.pink-it.net/
    Vinyl For RC… www.vinylforrc.com/

    Electronics

    C-Tronics Inc…. www.c-tronicsinc.com/
    Canuck Engineering… www.canuckengineering.com/
    CamLight Systems… www.camlight.com/
    Castle Creations… www.castlecreations.com/
    Dave's R/C Electronics… www.wix.com/dianneanddavid/daves-r-c-electronics
    Dimension Engineering… www.dimensionengineering.com/
    Eagle Tree Systems… www.eagletreesystems.com/
    ElectroDynamics… www.electrodynam.com/
    FMA Direct… www.fmadirect.com/
    Hansen Hobbies... www.hansenhobbies.com/
    KarglUSA… www.karglusa.com/default.aspx
    Kool Flight Systems… www.koolflightsystems.com/
    Medusa Research… www.medusaproducts.com/
    Tejera Microsystems Eng Inc… www.tmenet.com/xtrema.htm
    Winged Shadow… www.wingedshadow.com/
    York Electronics… www.york-electronics.com/

    Engines

    Davis Diesel Development… www.davisdieseldevelopment.com/
    Desert Aircraft… www.desertaircraft.com/
    First Place Engines… www.fpengines.com/
    Fox Engines… www.foxmanufacturing.com/
    Jett Engineering… www.jettengineering.com/
    K&B Manufacturing… www.mecoa.com/index1.htm
    KME Engines… www.kmeengines.com/
    Syssa… www.syssaaircraft.com/
    Taurus Engines… www.taurus-engines.com/

    Motors

    AstroFlight… www.astroflight.com/
    CustomCDrom… www.customcdr.com/
    MicroDan Brushless Motors… www.gobrushless.com/shop/
    Neu Motors… www.neumotors.com

    Software

    Knife Edge Software… www.knifeedge.com/

    Other

    Ace Sim RC… www.acesim.com/
    Ace Wing Carriers… www.acewingcarrier.com/index.html
    Askman AP… www.askmanap.com/
    Gamecraft Miniatures… http://www.gcmshop.com/gopro/
    Lipo Locker… www.lipolocker.com/
    LiPoSack.com… www.liposack.com/
    Merlin Glow Plugs… www.merlinglowplugs.com/
    OneWinch… www.gesswork.com/
    Pilot Portraits… www.mikebrentart.com/pilotportraits.html
    Progressive R/C… www.progressiverc.com/RCStyx.html
    RCA Models… www.shop.rcamodels.com/
    Wild R/C Inc…. www.wildrc.com/

    Tools

    Byrnes Model machines… www.byrnesmodelmachines.com/
    Preac Tool Co…. www.preac.com/
    Sherline Products… www.sherline.com/
    Taig Tools… www.taigtools.com/
    Vanda-Lay Industries… www.vanda-layindustries.com

    Repair Centers

    Radio South… www.radiosouthrc.com/

    Ground Vehicles

    Axon Racing Systems… www.axonracing.com/catalog/
    RC Product Designs… www.rcproductdesigns.com/

    Model Rockets

    Aero-Tech Rocketry… www.aerotech-rocketry.com/
    Fliskits… www.fliskits.com/
    LOC Precision Rocketry… www.locprecision.com/Home_Page.html
    Madcow Rocketry… www.madcowrocketry.com/servlet/StoreFront
    Public Missiles Ltd…. www.publicmissiles.com/
    Sunward Rocketry… www.sunward1.com/

    Boats

    Warehouse Hobbies… www.whobbies.com/



  14. #14
    AmishWarlord's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    The list is from 2010.
    Now the fun part will be seeing how many links still work in 2012.

  15. #15
    scale only 4 me's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    Sure USA companies,, but not that sell only made in the USA products,, Not sure what the point of that list is
    You're so smart,, you figured out how to read this!! Or maybe ya just got lucky??

  16. #16
    AmishWarlord's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    Thinking about it we don't "NEED" any company though.
    This hobby was around a long time before speciality companies.

    You don't need to buy from China.

    You don't need to give charity sales to US companies.
    If a US company can make a quality product at a fair price then they should be able to make it in the free market.

    Sears had a sales model years ago. Good - Better - Best.
    China has nailed down the crap/good market.
    US companies should move into the Better and Best levels of quality.

    My favorite USA made engine are K&B's however K&B never advanced from the Good level.
    A new top of the line K&B .60 class engine looks like something from the 1960's
    Wile a "crappy Japanese" company moved from a low level copier to a leader in Best class.

    Here is the sad part. That ugly, tired, old looking K&B engine runs like a cheetah on fire!
    That .61 size motor puts out 2.0 HP, wile that super, futuristic looking OS .65 engine only puts out 1.7 HP
    The good looking yet inferior running Japanese engine cost $210 wile the ugly American engine cost $110 and puts out more power!

    Now how many Americans here have read the "made in USA" post and where thinking, "Yeah!, Yeah!, Yeah China Sucks!" But then when it comes time to buy a .60 size engine you look at the K&B and say, "Oh hell no! Not in my plane, I'm going with that killer looking OS AX engine!"
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  17. #17

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    I'm in Canada.

    Makes no difference to me if the crappy stuff comes from China, USA or anywhere else for that matter.

    Not even crap comes from Canada. There is nothing in this hobby that is domestic for us - engines, radios, accessories and planes except for a small, insignificant number of kits.

    So I'll take best wherever I can get it. I know that I'm much better off in the long run like that. Fewer examples of defective merchandise. Fewer repairs. Fewer warranty claims which are never honored on model stuff anyway (Warranty lasts as long as you want - until you use it. Then it instantly expires immediately prior to that point.).

    Makes no difference to me if it comes from the USA or elsewhere. There's no benefit here in making certain that the origin is the USA.

    Unfortunately, the "buy the lowest price" item is the way it generally works here too, as the cheapies are always looking for something which they didn't pay for. Never accepting that you don't get what you didn't pay for, that latest new look, shiny item gets the nod in most cases and definitely so if it's in the cheapo price range. Cosmetics cover a host of sins when it comes to selling.

    In the case of the K&B, although it may be purchased for less than some of those flashy imports, the appearance makes it look as though competitively it doesn't deliver the goods. MECOA can fix that by giving it a facelift and pricing it with the competitors. You will never convey the impression of equality by looking shabby and being too low a perceived price for what is promised. You will get left in the dust.

    If you are great and at the top end in price as well, you'd better be certain that there is a large enough market to support you. Take Webra as an example. Had lots of them. Like them a lot. Been much better than any other glow engines I've ever had. Top end in price too. So where are they now? Insufficient supporters to sustain production.

    Gotta get them buyers to believe the dream - the hype, the myth, the promise. BMW started as a producer of ratbag cars by an unknown, dinky company (Do you remember things like the 1600 in the 1960's?). Took years to go upmarket. I can assure you though that they break just a easily and frequently as any other. The car business exists on service and repairs, not sales. Some may claim otherwise, however, that's how all car companies work at the dealership level.

  18. #18

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    China has a fast growing economy. Labor costs have been going up there a lot.
    A few years ago most of them could not read of write, had almost no education.
    Now things are moving and the quality is getting better but so are the prices.
    Some is due to higher costs, some just want more profits.
    No matter what it is - the Chinese products will get more expensive.
    Now they have to deliver a better quality to justify the prices.
    In the long run we'll see lesser Chinese made things, another poor country will step in
    and it all starts over


  19. #19
    AmishWarlord's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    MADE IN NIGERIA

    Do you a RC model airplanes enthusiast or you are on looking for an RC airplane for some one of your?

    Playing RC airplanes games are a good!

    Oh boy can't wait!

  20. #20
    Pecanpatch's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    Guys, My deal is; whenever possible I buy Horizon hobby stuff. It's still made in China or Malaysia or wherever but they stand behind it. My friends and I have stood in amazement at some of the stuff they have warrantied for the sake of " customer service"

    They have all the good stuff anyway.... They are an American company selling quality products.

    Try them for a year........ don't be afraid to send something back if your dissatisfied. See what happens.[>:]

    Mark Murdock
    Delta Airlines Machinist.
    Marko
    Kyosho ST-RR, Revo, Rustler and many many airplanes. Check out my Photo Gallery. Google Geobat for more info.

  21. #21
    countilaw's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    American companies like Hobbico, that use the Chinese for fabrication tell the fabricators to make it to Hobbico's specifications and to Hobbico's quality control or you don't get paid. So the Chinese company fabricating the product makes it a better product with better quality control and Hobbico stands behind their product.

    Now the Chinese hobby supplier like HK just has a Chinese company manufacture the part, and HK doesn't care what the quality control is because they are going to sell it for cheap and if the customer doesn't like it, and want's his money back or wants them to stand behind their product, HK just stalls them hoping the customer will just forget it and move on. They sell so much cheap stuff, they don't care if a customer is happy or not. There's always another customer out there that is attracted to the cheap price.

    Hobbico will pay the Chinese manufacturer more for a better product and the Chinese manufacturer will not want to lose a big company like Hobbico, so they, the Chinese manufacturer does a better job to meet the requirements of Hobbico.

    I just used the name Hobbico and HK to illustrate my point. They are two companies that supply hobby products. But they are on each end of the quality scale. This is niether an endorse for or against either company listed. All characters protrayed are fictional and no animals were harmed in this production.

    Did I cover everything?

    Frank
    AMA #5810
    CPA # 73
    Contest Director
    AMA Introductory Flight Instructor

  22. #22

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    Whatg a great service you have done for us! Thanks for taking the time to put those lists together.

    Larry Kruse

  23. #23
    rcguy59's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    You forgot Sierra Precision. The finest landing gear available and made in Ohio.
    Jet Central Superbee & Rabbit
    18MZ FASSTest for everything I fly

  24. #24

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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    as late as it is Stevens aero makes great stuff in co. u.s.a
    \"any crash you can walk away from is a good crash\" Launch pad Mcquack

  25. #25
    flyinwalenda's Avatar
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    RE: Is China getting expensive?

    That says a lot about a reseller that stands behind the product, even if it is cheap. There are a few in the states that do a good job procuring the stuff, pricing it right, and providing very good customer service. However there are way too many that do not.
    Brian Ray


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