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  1. #26

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    How does anyone expect to put out a lipo fire? they are almost impossible to put out - you can only isolate then from flammable things next to them.
    So did the club members act in any way to stop the fire around the lipo? Had the club done ANYTHING to prepare for the possibility of a crash and fire?

    Ed
    \"there are fighters and there are targets\"

  2. #27

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Good news the University has agreed to sit down and discuss with the club our future on their land. Goes to show you if you put pressure in the right places things happen. Go to [link]http://cicondors.com[/link]cicondors.com and see the pictures from the peaceful demonstration at the University including the full size banner towing airplane.

  3. #28
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Great news! I hope things are starting to turn in your favor.

  4. #29

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    This may or may not be progress. IF they are willing to let you return, you need to be able to demonstrate how it's in their best interest to do so - in other words, what's in it for them. How are you going to deal with the issues (lipos, parking and smokers) and how is letting you return going to make the University look good to the public and press? What steps is the club proposing to deal with fires, parking, and smokers? What public/community service is the club willing to provide? You need something that's going to look good as a press release. Remember, it's money or votes.

    There is the possibility that this meeting is really to iron out the timeline for the club to remove it's property and return the property to it's natural state. Typically, government agencies (and government academics) are pretty forgiving on negligence (the things you simply didn't foresee, like parking and the first lipo fire) but they take a hard line on willful disregard of their rules (like smoking in a posted no-smoking area). In addition, there may well be a hidden agenda involved - someone may have plans for that property contrary to your use of it. If so, then this meeting is simply part of the process, so they can say your due process rights were respected. They certainly have all the grounds they need to deny your continued use of the property - the Fire Marshall has documented it.

    If it were me, I'd be looking to relocate ASAP. Even if they let you back in, I believe it's only a matter of time. In fact, your best tactic may be to negotiate a vacate date a couple of years down the road. That allows your club to operate while you find and develop a site, and might sound like a reasonable compromise to them.

    Good luck!
    Trent Combs
    Fly \'em until the last piece stops!

  5. #30
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    ORIGINAL: Teachu2

    3) The club has failed to be proactive in fire prevention and has done nothing to show a good-faith effort to mitigate the fire hazard inherent in the operation of models. Two plastic barrels of water and a couple of buckets, a couple of fire extinguishers, half a dozen buckets of sand??? Anything???
    That's the first thought I had. Actually the second, but they are almost the same. When something is shut down, somebody probably wanted to do it anyway, so don't give them a reason. In dry areas, the flyers should have had something to put the fire out, before requiring public services assistance, which then allowed someone else to make it their problem. I just gave away a 20lb fire extinguisher a few days ago to a friend, to have in his garage. They're not hard to come by, or terribly expensive.

  6. #31
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    You guys may be approaching this thing from the wrong direction. You are attempting to force them (by applying pressure) to do something they really don't want to do. That is just going to postpone the inevitible. Your best bet may be for your club members to act in a manner than makes them want to keep you there.
    \"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; In practice, there is\"

    Intolerance is not to be tolerated

  7. #32

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    The Condors' website is very informative. It includes the University's response, which was (bold and italics mine):

    Thank you for your interest in the future of the Park.

    The University is enthusiastic about the opportunity that the Park presents and given the proximity of the Park to CI’s academic campus, we believe we are uniquely qualified to serve as good stewards for the property. There are a number of Environmental Education Centers across the country that serve as good models for creating the types of educational opportunities and habitat restoration projects that are envisioned by the campus. Common also to these parks are trail systems and other passive recreational uses which we envision will be key elements of the Park.
    As a public state agency, Channel Islands is subject to the authority of the State Fire Marshal. On these matters they maintain independence and are the authority having jurisdiction on all matters related to fire safety. The University must uphold the State Fire Marshal’s direction to protect state resources. We have no part in advising them on how to carry out their responsibilities. In the spirit of cooperation the University has requested and received a proposal from the President of the Channel Islands Condor Club, which is under review by the University and has been forwarded to the State Fire Marshal. A response to the proposal will be forthcoming from the University.

    The University has not yet developed a Master Plan. Current plans include selecting and then retaining a highly qualified consulting group to guide park planning efforts. The scope of the planning process will necessarily include community engagement sessions. Although progress will take time, we are very excited about the process, and the potential for what the Park will become over time. In the meantime, the Park is open for passive recreational uses.
    Your understanding as we work through this process is sincerely appreciated, and your participation is encouraged as we work to transform this beautiful asset into a facility that will support a multitude of uses and become renowned as a regional treasure.

    Sincerely,

    Caroline Doll
    Park Committee Chairman


    This letter, when translated from Governmental Doublespeak (Advanced Ed. dialect) to plain American English, says:

    I'm required to be polite.

    The University has plans for the Park, and those plans do not include activities that conflict with our vision of educational opportunities and habitat restoration - especially a bunch of non-students playing with toys that are noisy and/or fire hazards. We want Nature, not vehicles. We want quiet, not noise. We want wilderness, not development. We planned to ask you to take your stuff off our property in the near future, but the Fire Marshall just happened to give us leverage to do it now.

    The University is in the process of hiring a consulting group that shares our vision and will satisfy our requirements as a public agency. (This won't be a problem.) We will have to (necessarily) include "community engagement sessions" where you will have a minute or two to try and convince us to change our plans - like THAT could happen! In order to appear reasonable, we are keeping the Park open to uses that we'll allow after all the changes are made, so you'll probably be the ONLY group that objects to our plan.

    Remember, I have to be polte, so you'll get your turn to speak eventually - but we already know what we want, and you don't fit into our plan. You will be required to return the property to us in the condition you received it in, so you'd best start making plans to remove all your improvements, including the runway, as part of the transformation process.

    I mean it,
    Boss of the Park


    If the Condors have not incorporated, this could be a very expensive disaster - every land use agreement with a government agency I've ever seen includes language about the property being restored to it's original state by the tenant when they vacate. If the Condors are incorporated, the liability is limited to the assets of the Corporation. If not, each member and particularly the club officers are jointly and separately liable for the full cost of restoration. The University may bring that up and offer to waive those costs if you take the above-ground improvements and go quietly.

    I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express lately, but I have dealt with a number of public agencies over land use issues. They have all the cards. I would suggest you retain legal counsel - the AMA may be able to assist you.






    Trent Combs
    Fly \'em until the last piece stops!

  8. #33

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    I heard some local college people were flying there the other day and saying how nice it is to have the field all to themselves

    BV
    If it ain t leaking oil, then somethings wrong,,, USMC 82-03, RETIRED!

  9. #34

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Well, it's a month later - any progress?
    Trent Combs
    Fly \'em until the last piece stops!

  10. #35
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Have you guys seen this yet? It's an awesome video done by Ben Strasser, a member of the Condor's and just about very other model airplane club in the LA/Ventura area, as well as a former RC Modeler Magazine editor and author:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSNqL...ature=youtu.be
    ~Tom~

  11. #36

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure


    ORIGINAL: Kmot

    Have you guys seen this yet? It's an awesome video done by Ben Strasser, a member of the Condor's and just about very other model airplane club in the LA/Ventura area, as well as a former RC Modeler Magazine editor and author:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSNqL...ature=youtu.be
    Very nicely done video. Unfortunately, it portrays the club as a bunch of old caucasian guys with fancy (and expensive) toys. While that is probably a pretty accurate representation, it doesn't do much to garner favor with a university or the general public.

    If that same video had shown Club involvement in the community (Toys-For-Tots, Scouts, youth program), diversity in the membership, promotion of aerospace interest and education, or some other civic-minded program, it would be much more valuable for this cause at this time.
    Trent Combs
    Fly \'em until the last piece stops!

  12. #37

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    ORIGINAL: c99hris

    The Channel Island Condors have been unfairly locked out of our field by Cal State University Channel Islands. Please go to our letters page and demand the University take immediate action to restore flying at our site.

    [link]http://cicondors.com[/link]


    Chris, I grew up in Southern California and I am well aware of the Eco Nazis that want to stop anything with a motor on it. I know for a fact the Lipo fire was a very isolated incident as lipo fires are actually rare these days. Also, I only remember one fire resulting from a very hard crash of a .90 sized Nitro plane quite a few years ago. My advice is to contact the AMA and allow them to help you convince the powers that be that you need a place to enjoy your hobby and that model aviation has an exceptional saftey record. I know the real reason behind this and I am sorry to see this happening. I hope you and your fellow club members can come come to a reasonable consensus on what types of power systems are acceptable to your club and that you can get the State and the University to relent on your use of the land for model flying.

    As a university it may be of great interest to the engineering students to have a flying field in close proximity and available for their use and experimentation. Perhaps some sort of joint use program can be established that will be to everyones benefit.

    John.
    RC Aircraft/ Three Laws Safe.

  13. #38
    TampaRC's Avatar
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Hard case Lipos.  Hobby King sells hard case lipos that are R.O.A.R. approved.  Viable solution.

  14. #39

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure


    ORIGINAL: TampaRC

    Hard case Lipos.Β* Hobby King sells hard case lipos that are R.O.A.R. approved.Β* Viable solution.
    There are dozens of vendors that sell hard cased Lipos and many for less money but that is not a serious solution since hard case Lipos are much larger and heavier. Besides, the real issue is a fuel vs electric fight. I suspect your answer had nothing to do with the issue and was merely an attempt to be controversial. You failed on that account.
    RC Aircraft/ Three Laws Safe.

  15. #40
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Topspin I think you are very right . 1 +

    Frank
    AMA #5810
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  16. #41
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Hard case burn just as easily as soft case.
    It's all to do with the impact against a immovable object.


    Does anyone make a Lipo Battery Bag that could be used during flight?
    Of course the wires need to exit the bag but if the open end was Zip tied or restrained somehow I would think it would stay closed in a crash.

  17. #42

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure


    ORIGINAL: 1320Fastback

    Hard case burn just as easily as soft case.
    It's all to do with the impact against a immovable object.


    Does anyone make a Lipo Battery Bag that could be used during flight?
    Of course the wires need to exit the bag but if the open end was Zip tied or restrained somehow I would think it would stay closed in a crash.

    I haven't seen one but you could encase the battery in concrete and that would certainly lessen the danger of fire.
    RC Aircraft/ Three Laws Safe.

  18. #43
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    It's hard for me to believe that on the left coast , with all of the wild fires lately , that no one from the club had a fire extinguisher or two at the flying site. Even nitro and gas planes could start fires. This should be a wake-up call for all clubs to have fire prevention at their fields.
    As far as the lease or lack of one, it's an uphill battle from here. I would try and push for a lease agreement if it moves forward.

    Brian Ray

  19. #44

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure


    ORIGINAL: topspin


    ORIGINAL: TampaRC

    Hard case Lipos.Β* Hobby King sells hard case lipos that are R.O.A.R. approved.Β* Viable solution.
    There are dozens of vendors that sell hard cased Lipos and many for less money but that is not a serious solution since hard case Lipos are much larger and heavier. Besides, the real issue is a fuel vs electric fight. I suspect your answer had nothing to do with the issue and was merely an attempt to be controversial. You failed on that account.
    No - the real issue is that this club wasn't proactive in their fire supression plan and gave the University a reason/excuse/rationale for kicking them off the field. The fire opened the door for the Fire Marshall to review the site use, and the FM found club members smoking on site in violation of local rules/regs/ordinance. That is a big problem.

    Hobbiests of all genres suffer from the same disease - they lose the ability to see themselves as others see them. They become so enthralled with their own activities that they forget that the interests of others matter. I've seen hunters shoot up storage containers and portapottys, I've seen drag racers drive eight hours to set up illegal races on county airports, and I've seen R/Cers drive 4wd pickups through farmers fields to retrieve wreckage.

    When clubs fail to protect landowners interests first and foremost, it always catchs up to them. How hard the hammer falls depends largely on relationships, and smart clubs work hard to maintain strong relationships with landowners and public agencies who control their flying sites.

    The oldest club locally used to have a fantastic site - over a half-mile square piece of asphalt WWII training field, with a NHRA drag strip on one side and a full-scale runway on the other. We started flying there in the '50s. In the '80s, a company leased a large portion from the County to use for processing ag waste for animal feed. Eventually, they expanded to the point where we were crowded out. Fortunately, another club had an agreement with the County to use another training strip. Several years before the expansion of the feed plant, this other club had folded up and ceased operations. I approached the County, reminded them what good stewards we were of County land, and offered to add the other site to our agreement - and add another AMA insurance policy to cover it. They thought that prudent, so for several years we had both sites. When the flies and stench of the feed plant became unbearable, we moved exclusively to the second site. That site is hosting the Best In The West jet rally this weekend.

    Our relationship was tested when photos of after-hours activities at the field were posted here on RCU. Our agreement with the County prohibits alcohol consumption on the site, but the photos showed the bar set up and serving. If the Club had been on a less-than-excellent basis with the County, that would have cost us the field.

    We can argue the merits of the University's position, we can suggest compromises, we can do petitions. IMO, those efforts would be better spent finding a new location. The University had made their decision.



    Trent Combs
    Fly \'em until the last piece stops!

  20. #45
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    In the Video they say they were told the feild was going to be shut down before the lipo fire,, why is everyone focused on that?

    Fire or not It wouldn't matter. It's Green Politics in action.
    You're so smart,, you figured out how to read this!! Or maybe ya just got lucky??

  21. #46

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure


    ORIGINAL: Teachu2


    ORIGINAL: topspin


    ORIGINAL: TampaRC

    Hard case Lipos.Β* Hobby King sells hard case lipos that are R.O.A.R. approved.Β* Viable solution.
    There are dozens of vendors that sell hard cased Lipos and many for less money but that is not a serious solution since hard case Lipos are much larger and heavier. Besides, the real issue is a fuel vs electric fight. I suspect your answer had nothing to do with the issue and was merely an attempt to be controversial. You failed on that account.
    No - the real issue is that this club wasn't proactive in their fire supression plan and gave the University a reason/excuse/rationale for kicking them off the field. The fire opened the door for the Fire Marshall to review the site use, and the FM found club members smoking on site in violation of local rules/regs/ordinance. That is a big problem.

    Hobbiests of all genres suffer from the same disease - they lose the ability to see themselves as others see them. They become so enthralled with their own activities that they forget that the interests of others matter. I've seen hunters shoot up storage containers and portapottys, I've seen drag racers drive eight hours to set up illegal races on county airports, and I've seen R/Cers drive 4wd pickups through farmers fields to retrieve wreckage.

    When clubs fail to protect landowners interests first and foremost, it always catchs up to them. How hard the hammer falls depends largely on relationships, and smart clubs work hard to maintain strong relationships with landowners and public agencies who control their flying sites.

    The oldest club locally used to have a fantastic site - over a half-mile square piece of asphalt WWII training field, with a NHRA drag strip on one side and a full-scale runway on the other. We started flying there in the '50s. In the '80s, a company leased a large portion from the County to use for processing ag waste for animal feed. Eventually, they expanded to the point where we were crowded out. Fortunately, another club had an agreement with the County to use another training strip. Several years before the expansion of the feed plant, this other club had folded up and ceased operations. I approached the County, reminded them what good stewards we were of County land, and offered to add the other site to our agreement - and add another AMA insurance policy to cover it. They thought that prudent, so for several years we had both sites. When the flies and stench of the feed plant became unbearable, we moved exclusively to the second site. That site is hosting the Best In The West jet rally this weekend.

    Our relationship was tested when photos of after-hours activities at the field were posted here on RCU. Our agreement with the County prohibits alcohol consumption on the site, but the photos showed the bar set up and serving. If the Club had been on a less-than-excellent basis with the County, that would have cost us the field.

    We can argue the merits of the University's position, we can suggest compromises, we can do petitions. IMO, those efforts would be better spent finding a new location. The University had made their decision.



    Unfortunately your assessment is spot on, they are going to have to find a new field. I would think the enviro weenies would be all over electric flight development and I would be willing to be that the field will be used by students for that purpose and it will be electric only. The field at Mission Bay in San Diego is electric only thanks to the enviro nazis but at least there is a nice place to fly.
    RC Aircraft/ Three Laws Safe.

  22. #47
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure


    ORIGINAL: topspin


    ORIGINAL: Teachu2


    ORIGINAL: topspin


    ORIGINAL: TampaRC

    Hard case Lipos.Β* Hobby King sells hard case lipos that are R.O.A.R. approved.Β* Viable solution.
    There are dozens of vendors that sell hard cased Lipos and many for less money but that is not a serious solution since hard case Lipos are much larger and heavier. Besides, the real issue is a fuel vs electric fight. I suspect your answer had nothing to do with the issue and was merely an attempt to be controversial. You failed on that account.
    No - the real issue is that this club wasn't proactive in their fire supression plan and gave the University a reason/excuse/rationale for kicking them off the field. The fire opened the door for the Fire Marshall to review the site use, and the FM found club members smoking on site in violation of local rules/regs/ordinance. That is a big problem.

    Hobbiests of all genres suffer from the same disease - they lose the ability to see themselves as others see them. They become so enthralled with their own activities that they forget that the interests of others matter. I've seen hunters shoot up storage containers and portapottys, I've seen drag racers drive eight hours to set up illegal races on county airports, and I've seen R/Cers drive 4wd pickups through farmers fields to retrieve wreckage.

    When clubs fail to protect landowners interests first and foremost, it always catchs up to them. How hard the hammer falls depends largely on relationships, and smart clubs work hard to maintain strong relationships with landowners and public agencies who control their flying sites.

    The oldest club locally used to have a fantastic site - over a half-mile square piece of asphalt WWII training field, with a NHRA drag strip on one side and a full-scale runway on the other. We started flying there in the '50s. In the '80s, a company leased a large portion from the County to use for processing ag waste for animal feed. Eventually, they expanded to the point where we were crowded out. Fortunately, another club had an agreement with the County to use another training strip. Several years before the expansion of the feed plant, this other club had folded up and ceased operations. I approached the County, reminded them what good stewards we were of County land, and offered to add the other site to our agreement - and add another AMA insurance policy to cover it. They thought that prudent, so for several years we had both sites. When the flies and stench of the feed plant became unbearable, we moved exclusively to the second site. That site is hosting the Best In The West jet rally this weekend.

    Our relationship was tested when photos of after-hours activities at the field were posted here on RCU. Our agreement with the County prohibits alcohol consumption on the site, but the photos showed the bar set up and serving. If the Club had been on a less-than-excellent basis with the County, that would have cost us the field.

    We can argue the merits of the University's position, we can suggest compromises, we can do petitions. IMO, those efforts would be better spent finding a new location. The University had made their decision.



    Unfortunately your assessment is spot on, they are going to have to find a new field. I would think the enviro weenies would be all over electric flight development and I would be willing to be that the field will be used by students for that purpose and it will be electric only. The field at Mission Bay in San Diego is electric only thanks to the enviro nazis but at least there is a nice place to fly.
    Yep Topspin the guy's got it. We can't argue with the merits of the University, because their superior technical knowledge has likely come to the conclusion that a .049 glow and a full size 18 wheeler tractor trailer are the same thing in terms of exhaust emissions.
    Yes, there are enviro-conservation types who actually think like that. The irrelevant thinking reminds me of the gov't sponsored commercial where a young girl tells her friend that she's wasting energy by not unplugging her cell phone charger. So let's see, an unloaded 300mW charger drawing a few mW: Boy we better jump on that waste first, before worrying about the light bulb that is using 500 times more energy. The truth is that the transformer may actually last longer if you leave it plugged in, so it stays slightly warm. The temp cycling due to unplugging the device causes the windings to contract and wear away the insulation.

  23. #48
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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure


    ORIGINAL: scale only 4 me

    In the Video they say they were told the feild was going to be shut down before the lipo fire,, why is everyone focused on that?

    Fire or not It wouldn't matter. It's Green Politics in action.
    Well then, as discussed, that was the provobial nail in the coffin so to speak. Still it should speak volumes about basic fire prevention/safety at all fields regardless of the arrangements with landowners, lessors, lessees , etc...

    Brian Ray

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Not really,, it's after the fact justification

    Sure every club should have Safety protocols,

    The real issue is "Contract with Land Owner",, If your club doesn't have one, they can throw you out on your rear end at any time,,

    We've had this issue with our current "Gas/Glow power" field,, The landlord won't give us a long term contract, so as a result we can't commit to long term improvements we can't pick up and take with us,, that would be dumb.. Going along just assuming they land owner won't toss you out on a whim is foolish.
    You're so smart,, you figured out how to read this!! Or maybe ya just got lucky??

  25. #50

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    RE: Camarillo, CA Channel Islands Condors Field Closure

    Land-use contracts are comforting, but ultimately not much protection. Typically they provide language that allows the landowner or tenant to end the contract with 90 days or less notice, without cause, or immediately with cause. Neither would have saved this field.

    Owning the land you fly on is better protection, but still isn't perfect. Owning the land you fly on and over is better. Owning the land you fly on, over, and a substantial buffer is perfect.

    Unfortunately, very few clubs have the funding to own land, so we're right back to dealing with landowners and/or public agencies.
    Trent Combs
    Fly \'em until the last piece stops!


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