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  1. #101

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    'No desire to put any effort into anything'.
    "Lazy, fat..."
    Never...work on anything that requires time, dedication, and a sense of mechanics."
    "...absolutely useless on every level..."

    I think it's sad a 27 year old sounds like an octogenarian.

  2. #102

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    Medical Definition of OCTOGENARIAN


    : a person whose age is in the eighties

    On the board..Dynaflite Spitfire, Top Flite P-47, Great Planes Pete n Poke
    Club SAITO membr 523 Spitfire brotherhood 32

  3. #103
    Live Wire's Avatar
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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    Then you find out after many many years, you find out, you are in the wrong class of people You better have a well known name or a lot of money or you will not make it [:@]
    Larry K
    Sig Brotherhood # 1 Sig Kadet Brotherhood # 4 WACO Brotherhood #34 Cub Brotherhood 14

  4. #104

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?


    ORIGINAL: 804

    'No desire to put any effort into anything'.
    "Lazy, fat..."
    Never...work on anything that requires time, dedication, and a sense of mechanics."
    "...absolutely useless on every level..."

    I think it's sad a 27 year old sounds like an octogenarian.

    LOL. You make me laugh.

    I'm not 80. I'm 27. I know this. However age is just a number in my opinion. I'm a SSgt in the USAF, and I'm a Propulsion Craftsman. (IE, Jet engine mechanic). I fix things every day that'd probably blow the average persons mind away. I said what I said, because our new guys have absolutely ZERO mechanical skills. 18-20 year olds come into our career field, and don't know what an "All 1/16's" is. (Adjustable wrench). Or don't know what a Hi-Torx screwdriver is. It's PATHETIC. 1/2 of my coworkers don't know how to change the oil in their personal cars, and their friends are just as bad.

    I was welding floor pans into a 72' Chevy Nova at the age of 13. LOL. My neighbor who restored old cars needed a helping hand, and well.... I wanted to learn after school in the evenings. So there I was. Laying pretty welding beads at the age of 13. That car turned out fantastic.

    At the age of 21 I was changing injectors, and HPOP's on diesel trucks, and wiring relay boxes and light bars on cop cars for the local PD.

    I'm not "bragging" by saying these things, I only am saying them because the average GUY my age or younger, coudln't help themselves out of a cardboard box if their life depended on it.

    People are not self sufficient in a lot of ways, and it's apparently obvious by the shrinking numbers of participants in hobbies such as this. RC is a Hobby that requires skilled learning, problem solving, assembling, math and science skills, as well as the ability to understand mechanical principles and drivetrain math. Not to mention wing & servo angles, weight and balance measurements, and thrust measurements and requirements for specific scale models. (giant scale planes come to mind).

    Simply knowing how to tune a carb is now rocket science these days, as dudes have no idea what a idle set screw is, and even what the choke might be used for.

    Anyway, I could rant on and on for days about how useless people are. Maybe we could attribute that to them acting like drones with their cell phones crammed in their faces 24 hours a day.




  5. #105

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?


    ORIGINAL: Yourworstnightmare


    ORIGINAL: 804

    'No desire to put any effort into anything'.
    ''Lazy, fat...''
    Never...work on anything that requires time, dedication, and a sense of mechanics.''
    ''...absolutely useless on every level...''

    I think it's sad a 27 year old sounds like an octogenarian.

    LOL. *You make me laugh.*

    I'm not 80. *I'm 27. *I know this. * However age is just a number in my opinion. * I'm a SSgt in the USAF, and I'm a Propulsion Craftsman. *(IE, Jet engine mechanic). *I fix things every day that'd probably blow the average persons mind away. *I said what I said, because our new guys have absolutely ZERO mechanical skills. * 18-20 year olds come into our career field, and don't know what an ''All 1/16's'' is. *(Adjustable wrench). *Or don't know what a Hi-Torx screwdriver is. *It's PATHETIC. *1/2 of my coworkers don't know how to change the oil in their personal cars, and their friends are just as bad.*

    I was welding floor pans into a 72' Chevy Nova at the age of 13. *LOL. *My neighbor who restored old cars needed a helping hand, and well.... *I wanted to learn after school in the evenings. *So there I was. *Laying pretty welding beads at the age of 13. *That car turned out fantastic.*

    At the age of 21 I was changing injectors, and HPOP's on diesel trucks, and wiring relay boxes and light bars on cop cars for the local PD.*

    I'm not ''bragging'' by saying these things, I only am saying them because the average GUY my age or younger, coudln't help themselves out of a cardboard box if their life depended on it.*

    People are not self sufficient in a lot of ways, and it's apparently obvious by the shrinking numbers of participants in hobbies such as this. *RC is a Hobby that requires skilled learning, problem solving, assembling, math and science skills, as well as the ability to understand mechanical principles and drivetrain math. *Not to mention wing & servo angles, weight and balance measurements, and thrust measurements and requirements for specific scale models. (giant scale planes come to mind).*

    Simply knowing how to tune a carb is now rocket science these days, as dudes have no idea what a idle set screw is, and even what the choke might be used for. **

    Anyway, I could rant on and on for days about how useless people are. *Maybe we could attribute that to them acting like drones with their cell phones crammed in their faces 24 hours a day.*



    Glad I could make you laugh.
    I'm a 55 yr. old Home Improvement Engineer (carpenter).
    When I was a kid, oh so many years ago, I was the local bicycle mechanic, because none of my neighbors had the skill or the tools or desire
    needed to fix the simple bikes we had back then. I knew what tools were used for what purpose, and how to use them,
    largely because I had a father to teach me. My neighbors had fathers too, but they learned other things.
    I'm talking about life circumstances here.
    I fly RC at the back of a large farm.
    The farmers grandson and all his buddies build honkin' 4wd trucks as their hobby.
    Before the recession hit, there were plenty of young folks employed in all the trades who knew their way around tools.
    There still are many employed in auto repair, motorcycle repair, plumbing, electrical, etc.

    Has it ever occurred to you that the reason your "new guys" don't have experience with tools might be in part
    due to the all volunteer service?
    Many of the young people that have the skills you speak of may be already employed, making a good (decent) living in the civilian world.
    The ones joining the service are doing so because they have no skills, and are seeking them.

    There is nothing new in any of this. Your thoughts, and no disrespect here, are no revelation.
    I had to research some early 20th century newspaper archives once for a school paper, close to 30 years ago now.
    I was amazed at how similar the headlines and story lines were to today's.
    An old saying:
    "The more things change, the more they stay the same".
    People have not been "self sufficient in a lot of ways" for a long, long, long, time.
    Nothing new there.

    Having said all that,
    I know it is natural to feel the way you do, as most older folks I know are the same.
    I've noticed that it usually begins around the time their kids turn about 14 or so.

  6. #106

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?


    ORIGINAL: 804


    ORIGINAL: Yourworstnightmare


    ORIGINAL: 804

    'No desire to put any effort into anything'.
    ''Lazy, fat...''
    Never...work on anything that requires time, dedication, and a sense of mechanics.''
    ''...absolutely useless on every level...''

    I think it's sad a 27 year old sounds like an octogenarian.

    LOL. You make me laugh.

    I'm not 80. I'm 27. I know this. However age is just a number in my opinion. I'm a SSgt in the USAF, and I'm a Propulsion Craftsman. (IE, Jet engine mechanic). I fix things every day that'd probably blow the average persons mind away. I said what I said, because our new guys have absolutely ZERO mechanical skills. 18-20 year olds come into our career field, and don't know what an ''All 1/16's'' is. (Adjustable wrench). Or don't know what a Hi-Torx screwdriver is. It's PATHETIC. 1/2 of my coworkers don't know how to change the oil in their personal cars, and their friends are just as bad.

    I was welding floor pans into a 72' Chevy Nova at the age of 13. LOL. My neighbor who restored old cars needed a helping hand, and well.... I wanted to learn after school in the evenings. So there I was. Laying pretty welding beads at the age of 13. That car turned out fantastic.

    At the age of 21 I was changing injectors, and HPOP's on diesel trucks, and wiring relay boxes and light bars on cop cars for the local PD.

    I'm not ''bragging'' by saying these things, I only am saying them because the average GUY my age or younger, coudln't help themselves out of a cardboard box if their life depended on it.

    People are not self sufficient in a lot of ways, and it's apparently obvious by the shrinking numbers of participants in hobbies such as this. RC is a Hobby that requires skilled learning, problem solving, assembling, math and science skills, as well as the ability to understand mechanical principles and drivetrain math. Not to mention wing & servo angles, weight and balance measurements, and thrust measurements and requirements for specific scale models. (giant scale planes come to mind).

    Simply knowing how to tune a carb is now rocket science these days, as dudes have no idea what a idle set screw is, and even what the choke might be used for.

    Anyway, I could rant on and on for days about how useless people are. Maybe we could attribute that to them acting like drones with their cell phones crammed in their faces 24 hours a day.



    Glad I could make you laugh.
    I'm a 55 yr. old Home Improvement Engineer (carpenter).
    When I was a kid, oh so many years ago, I was the local bicycle mechanic, because none of my neighbors had the skill or the tools or desire
    needed to fix the simple bikes we had back then. I knew what tools were used for what purpose, and how to use them,
    largely because I had a father to teach me. My neighbors had fathers too, but they learned other things.
    I'm talking about life circumstances here.
    I fly RC at the back of a large farm.
    The farmers grandson and all his buddies build honkin' 4wd trucks as their hobby.
    Before the recession hit, there were plenty of young folks employed in all the trades who knew their way around tools.
    There still are many employed in auto repair, motorcycle repair, plumbing, electrical, etc.

    Has it ever occurred to you that the reason your "new guys" don't have experience with tools might be in part
    due to the all volunteer service?
    Many of the young people that have the skills you speak of may be already employed, making a good (decent) living in the civilian world.
    The ones joining the service are doing so because they have no skills, and are seeking them.

    There is nothing new in any of this. Your thoughts, and no disrespect here, are no revelation.
    I had to research some early 20th century newspaper archives once for a school paper, close to 30 years ago now.
    I was amazed at how similar the headlines and story lines were to today's.
    An old saying:
    "The more things change, the more they stay the same".
    People have not been "self sufficient in a lot of ways" for a long, long, long, time.
    Nothing new there.

    Having said all that,
    I know it is natural to feel the way you do, as most older folks I know are the same.
    I've noticed that it usually begins around the time their kids turn about 14 or so.

    Very valid points indeed. "The more things change, the more they stay the same" couldn't be said any better.


    I agree with you.


  7. #107
    apwachholz's Avatar
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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    @804 & Yourworstnightmare
    While this thread has so many tangents it's hard to keep track, I did want to toss a few comments your way about some things said in your conversations. Nothing earth shattering by any means but rather another perspective from what I'll dub myself as the "middle man" (i.e., 804=55yrs, apwachholz=36yrs, Yourworst=27yrs).
    @Yourworstnightmare
    "I fix things every day that'd probably blow the average persons mind away…" Figuratively and literally! LOL! Pardon me, that's my nerd side showing. Ohkay, I just had to say it.
    Moving on, I decided to give everyone a summary in the case you don't want to read my painfully long monologue below. Ur welcome in advance
    Summary
    Model aviation is a personal choice influenced through our curiosity of flight and supported by the encouragement we receive from fellow aviation enthusiasts. It's not about how or when you do it, rather its about enjoying what you do and being a positive steward to the community of our hobby.
    The Long Story
    An interesting overtone is the perceived crippling effect that technology plays in prohibiting the growth of our hobby. I don't find that argument to hold much weight because often times the physical technology (e.g., playstation, iPad apps, etc.) is not the prohibiting factor, rather its the individual's interests. Another prohibiting factor is cost. Even with the advancements in ARF technology, foam aircraft, etc. the cost can still keep someone at arms length. That aside...
    From what I can gather, you both are very physically active in your career and personal lives. So it seems natural that your physical skill sets would be "turned on", so to speak, with model aviation. Lord knows there are infinite numbers of ways to tinker within our hobby. It's this tinkering and desire to be hands-on that brought me into the hobby decades ago and it's what keeps me in the hobby today.
    My professional trade, going on 11+ years is Online Marketing and User Experience Strategy. It's a fancy name for someone who builds and manages sites like Amazon.com, BN.com, or ESPN.com to name a few. A majority of my day is spent surrounded by nerds like myself who are neck deep in the latest online gadgets and online technology. The irony: My personal life is a complete departure from technology; I unplug the minute I get the chance.
    I'm an avid hiker, hardcore camper, and above all lover of aviation. I've rebuilt a few r/c engines, kit built from Guillows to Carl Goldberg, and designed, built, and flew 2 designs of my own. Model aviation is what unplugs me and satiates my need to physically, not digitally, create and tinker. I'm afflicted by model aviation so much so that I created a site dedicated to it and run it to this day (on my free time - I need help.).
    My point is that many of us have a desire to sharpen our skills outside of education or career and it just so happens that model aviation allows us to do just that. Especially now with the UAS market beginning to grow by leaps and bounds - Nerds Unite! on that front I would rather acknowledge the bad, learn from it, but more-so focus on the good and what our hobby gives back to us as a community of model enthusiasts.
    I embrace technology and find ways to use it to benefit our hobby. But I'm a nerd…it's in my nature.

  8. #108
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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    ORIGINAL: Bill G



    .... I have had a few smart remarks made toward my builds from builders, but in the past few years, there has been a mass increase of people on some forums (more on another forum than here by far) that contribute nothing but smart remarks and challenging of others. They tend to be ARFers and not builders. Again not the fault of the ARFs, but just the people. That may have had some influence on the original poster of the ARF statement.
    This is my first post in this forum, but I belong to few others, and the first thread I post in is fed with complaints about ARFS by builders. I fly ARFS, but I'm assembling a kit right now. I say assembling because, I didn't cut the wood from stock and I didn't create the plans. I'm assembling a plane step by step, following plans. But for the life of me, I don't understand why anyone cares what I fly or how I put it together. To assume because I like to fly ARFs that I'm not committed to anything in my life is ignorant. I happen to be the 48 yr old single father of 4 and former Marine. I have 3 children in college and one in high school taking college courses. I work a 50 hrs a week, but I'm paid for 40. Every ounce of energy I have has gone into raising my children who are solid citizens. Yet someones going to pass judgement on my life because I fly an ARF? This is why I find an empty road, in an abandoned subdivision in the middle of the Phoenix desert and fly with friends. We haven't quit the hobby... joining a club is not worth this kind of politics so we fly elsewhere.
    Flying:Goldwing 20cc GBR3, 20cc Reactor Bipe, 10cc Skyline SBach
    Building: GP Ultimate Bipe .40 Kit
    Built: Mountain Models EVA
    Radio Equipment: FrSky Taranis Tx (2.02 Firmware), FrSky Rx (all).

  9. #109

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?


    ORIGINAL: Dooz

    ORIGINAL: Bill G



    .... I have had a few smart remarks made toward my builds from builders, but in the past few years, there has been a mass increase of people on some forums (more on another forum than here by far) that contribute nothing but smart remarks and challenging of others. They tend to be ARFers and not builders. Again not the fault of the ARFs, but just the people. That may have had some influence on the original poster of the ARF statement.
    To assume because I like to fly ARFs that I'm not committed to anything in my life is ignorant.
    I'm sure that you've experienced anti-ARF sentiment firsthand, and I'm also sure that once you have built the kit, covered it, installed all the equipment, and flown it that you will understand the difference in committment. Before ARFs, a high percentage of beginners bought a kit, spent hundreds of hours building it, and crashed it in short order. A substantial percentage never tried again. OTOH, the busy beginner of today can crash this morning and again with a new plane this afternoon. It's only money - there is not the time and effort committment. For the last 20 years, I've always recommended that the first and second planes be ARFs - then build a 4*, Tiger, Super Sportster, etc.


    Trent Combs
    Fly \'em until the last piece stops!

  10. #110
    Dooz's Avatar
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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?


    ORIGINAL: Teachu2


    ORIGINAL: Dooz

    ORIGINAL: Bill G



    .... I have had a few smart remarks made toward my builds from builders, but in the past few years, there has been a mass increase of people on some forums (more on another forum than here by far) that contribute nothing but smart remarks and challenging of others. They tend to be ARFers and not builders. Again not the fault of the ARFs, but just the people. That may have had some influence on the original poster of the ARF statement.
    To assume because I like to fly ARFs that I'm not committed to anything in my life is ignorant.
    I'm sure that you've experienced anti-ARF sentiment firsthand, and I'm also sure that once you have built the kit, covered it, installed all the equipment, and flown it that you will understand the difference in committment. Before ARFs, a high percentage of beginners bought a kit, spent hundreds of hours building it, and crashed it in short order. A substantial percentage never tried again. OTOH, the busy beginner of today can crash this morning and again with a new plane this afternoon. It's only money - there is not the time and effort committment. For the last 20 years, I've always recommended that the first and second planes be ARFs - then build a 4*, Tiger, Super Sportster, etc.


    I completely agree with what you are saying, but the level of commitment to assemble a kit was not where I was headed. There are quite a few posts in this thread that suggest because you fly an ARF you lack commitment in your personal life. That you are part of the "give it to me now," or the "I need things handed to me" generation. I'm just saying, I don't get how you can make that leap based on a hobby. Hobbies, as most of us understand, are something we do in spare time. They are not our focus, or our commitment. There are a gazillion reasons, not character related, why someone may choose to buy an ARF over a kit assembly. To assume that there is some sort of personal lack of commitment in someones life because of what they do in a hobby is short sighted, to say the least.
    Flying:Goldwing 20cc GBR3, 20cc Reactor Bipe, 10cc Skyline SBach
    Building: GP Ultimate Bipe .40 Kit
    Built: Mountain Models EVA
    Radio Equipment: FrSky Taranis Tx (2.02 Firmware), FrSky Rx (all).

  11. #111

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    To assume that there is some sort of personal lack of commitment in someones life because of what they do in a hobby is short sighted, to say the least.
    I think you are not seeing this as I intended - I'm talking about commitment TO THE HOBBY, not about anyone's character. It's a higher level of commitment to build your own bow, construct your own arrows, build your own race car, train your own horse, build your own firearm, build your own full-scale airplane, weave your own fabric, grow your own food, make your own clothes, mow your own yard, clean your own pool, and so on.
    Trent Combs
    Fly \'em until the last piece stops!

  12. #112

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?


    ORIGINAL: Teachu2

    To assume that there is some sort of personal lack of commitment in someones life because of what they do in a hobby is short sighted, to say the least.
    I think you are not seeing this as I intended - I'm talking about commitment TO THE HOBBY, not about anyone's character. It's a higher level of commitment to build your own bow, construct your own arrows, build your own race car, train your own horse, build your own firearm, build your own full-scale airplane, weave your own fabric, grow your own food, make your own clothes, mow your own yard, clean your own pool, and so on.
    As far as "the hobby", I'm just committed to having fun.

  13. #113
    Bill G's Avatar
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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    ORIGINAL: Dooz

    ORIGINAL: Bill G



    .... I have had a few smart remarks made toward my builds from builders, but in the past few years, there has been a mass increase of people on some forums (more on another forum than here by far) that contribute nothing but smart remarks and challenging of others. They tend to be ARFers and not builders. Again not the fault of the ARFs, but just the people. That may have had some influence on the original poster of the ARF statement.
    This is my first post in this forum, but I belong to few others, and the first thread I post in is fed with complaints about ARFS by builders. I fly ARFS, but I'm assembling a kit right now. I say assembling because, I didn't cut the wood from stock and I didn't create the plans. I'm assembling a plane step by step, following plans. But for the life of me, I don't understand why anyone cares what I fly or how I put it together. To assume because I like to fly ARFs that I'm not committed to anything in my life is ignorant. I happen to be the 48 yr old single father of 4 and former Marine. I have 3 children in college and one in high school taking college courses. I work a 50 hrs a week, but I'm paid for 40. Every ounce of energy I have has gone into raising my children who are solid citizens. Yet someones going to pass judgement on my life because I fly an ARF? This is why I find an empty road, in an abandoned subdivision in the middle of the Phoenix desert and fly with friends. We haven't quit the hobby... joining a club is not worth this kind of politics so we fly elsewhere.
    "To assume because I like to fly ARFs that I'm not committed to anything in my life is ignorant."
    Where did someone say that?

    The purpose of quoting a statement is to touch base specifically on a comment made, and not reword comments into something else. Note the example above.

  14. #114
    acerc's Avatar
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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    apwachholz.
    That is a nice website you have there. Added it to my favorite's.
    Robert
    Cub Brotherhood #3\\ Ryan STA Brotherhood #4
    Corsair Brotherhood #56\\ Waco Brotherhood #184

  15. #115

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    RE: The times, they are a changin! Say it ain't so Joe?

    I thought I would update how things are going since I originally started this thread. Tuesday and Wednesday mornings, both fantastic weather days, I came out to fly with winter texans that come here to escape the colder weather up north. The winter Texans come early so I came out at 9am both days. Tuesday there were 5 people including me and 4 wednesday, this being way down from a couple years ago when a scheduled flying day would bring at least 20 people to the field with 10-15 actually participating and flying planes. The subject of fewer people was brought up by one of the winter Texans so we all chimed in about it. All of them told me it was the same up north where they live and not unique to south Texas, Ohio, Illinois and Canada being their summer homes. I also heard some gossip that one of the major online hobby outfits is in finacial trouble and may soon be gone. I wont say which one but they recently changed their website design and used to send out one or two e-mails a month with specials, but I now recieve at least one a day! I know many that think that bringing out bad news about their hobby will jinx it, but I think it is best let the cat out of the bag so to speak! One winter Texan stated that he doubts this hobby will last another 10 years and what we are now experiencing is more than just a speed bump but rather a terminal decline!


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