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  1. #1

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    What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Its a longt story so I will try to get the main points in with out any slant to my side of the dispute.
    Back in May I arrived at our local flying field with a new Great planes Tomcat (Built Kit) Powered with a OS 55AX. The aircraft had been folwn 5 weeks eariler by an experienced flier. After this I was sent home to get the CofG forward which I did along with the instillation on a set of new E flite retracts. At this time it was the love of my life.
    On the first flite the aircraft did around 3 laps again with the experienced flyer at the controls it was trimed and then handed over to Myself.
    I did a turn as we were at the end of the runway and went around to the left as I was heading up the field on the other side the only other aircraft in the air cut across towards the tomcat I moved away this takes you out of our field across the road to the next paddock The trainer follwed I move away to the right again ,the trainer followed again. I moved again to the right,now we were flying directly away from the take off point at a distance of about 400 meters. The aircrafts were now as one as my Tomcat was in front. in the next second my Tomcat was on its way to earth with the wing removed. My time at the controls 20 to 25 Seconds.
    The damage and cost ! reciever 9 optmer ! OS 55 ax carburettor body and the out of production tomcat
    The offer for the damage take it or leve it was his old 6 to 8 year old Great planes Mustang . My reply to this offer was I want the Great planes Tomcat.
    There has been no other offer for the damage to equipment or aircraft ,I also feel that he thinks he has no nore responsibility
    Below is my reply in post 10 to some of the replys
    The replacement reciver $90 which I have
    The OS 55 AX carburettor body $55
    I have aquired a wing kit which will fix that area ,cost $40 covering 2 rolls on MK $50
    I have had a Ebay Tomcat arrive with a cost of $320 (this included $100 postage) this was a little on the high side but you need to find some one that will post over seas.
    O and one other point that the other piolt thought some one else was still flying my Tomcat and the trainer he had ,was not his he had a lesson going and there was a student on the buddy box, what a lesson for the student.
    My intention is to have replys from all over the world to how you think about this treatment so I can forward the link to him to see if that gets his hand into his pocket
    Yours Paul T

    Many thanks to the people that replyed.
    As to out running the trainer. The trainer was a very light trainer {VMAR stinger) with a OS 46 AX which the instructor had taken control of away from the student,he was in total control from the point of the agressive action. The great plain Tomcat is not a light aircraft with very long Fuselage and not the lightest aircraft around the trainer was the faster of the two. I did try to our run the trainer after the first turn the trainer was a clear winer in the speed race on the day.
    The offending piolt also said straight after the crash (I was collecting the remains) that he thought it was an ARF and the problem would be easly solved with a new one. It was only after the cost factor was realised that a cheaper method of repayment was tryed.
    There in no dought about who was at fault on the day, from anybody but when you figer into the event that now this is going to cost heaps attitude change after a few days.
    The student also had to do his repairs ,not major as his aircraft made it back to the field but there was reasonable damage. The offending piolt had no cost so far for his actions.

    .....bugger.... That went in quick... .

  2. #2

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.


    ORIGINAL: Quigleywins

    Its a longt story so I will try to get the main points in with out any slant to my side of the dispute.
    Back in May I arrived at our local flying field with a new Great planes Tomcat (Built Kit) Powered with a OS 55AX. The aircraft had been folwn 5 weeks eariler by an experienced flier. After this I was sent home to get the CofG forward which I did along with the instillation on a set of new E flite retracts. At this time it was the love of my life.
    On the first flite the aircraft did around 3 laps again with the experienced flyer at the controls it was trimed and then handed over to Myself.
    I did a turn as we were at the end of the runway and went around to the left as I was heading up the field on the other side the only other aircraft in the air cut across towards the tomcat I moved away this takes you out of our field across the road to the next paddock The trainer follwed I move away to the right again ,the trainer followed again. I moved again to the right,now we were flying directly away from the take off point at a distance of about 400 meters. The aircrafts were now as one as my Tomcat was in front. in the next second my Tomcat was on its way to earth with the wing removed. My time at the controls 20 to 25 Seconds.
    The damage and cost ! reciever 9 optmer ! OS 55 ax carburettor body and the out of production tomcat
    The offer for the damage take it or leve it was his old 6 to 8 year old Great planes Mustang . My reply to this offer was I want the Great planes Tomcat.
    There has been no other offer for the damage to equipment or aircraft ,I also feel that he thinks he has no nore responsibility

    The replacement reciver $90 which I have
    The OS 55 AX carburettor body $55
    I have aquired a wing kit which will fix that area ,cost $40 covering 2 rolls on MK $50
    I have had a Ebay Tomcat arrive with a cost of $320 (this included $100 postage) this was a little on the high side but you need to find some one that will post over seas.
    O and one other point that the other piolt thought some one else was still flying my Tomcat and the trainer he had ,was not his he had a lesson going and there was a student on the buddy box, what a lesson for the student.
    My intention is to have replys from all over the world to how you think about this treatment so I can forward the link to him to see if that gets his hand into his pocket
    Yours Paul T
    [8D] Hi Quigleywins ,

    These judgements are seldom easy . If we were talking a case of the other pilot delibrately flew at or into your plane , well then of course he should pay for your damages . Also , even if it wasn't on purpose , but a clear cut mistake on his part , he should also offer to pay . Notice I say "should" because at any field i've ever flown at , there is no absolute requirement for a bumbling pilot to make good on his damages and it's left up to the morals of the dolt causing the damage . Some will pay , and some will not part with a single dime unless ya sue em in small claims court and win . These are the ugly facts of life when dealing with your fellow Humans .

    Now , the ugly "whose really responsible" part of the conversation needs to take place .

    In your description , it sounds as if your a training pilot and have an instructor on buddy box ? What was HIS take on the accident , does he also believe it was the other pilot's fault ? Cause if you've got an honest witness that will say flat out to the other pilot ; "Dude , ya flew right into our plane !" , , well , then you've got the responsibility assigned right there . But , If , it isn't so clear cut , or if maybe the other guy is attempting to claim YOUR partially at fault , maybe that's why he's tryin to get out of paying you ? I would like for you to clarify exactly the few seconds before the crash , as to whose planes were doing what , and also what the other pilot said right after the planes collided . What people blurt out in the heat of the moment is the best indicator of what they actually believe , and if his first reaction was "sorry" or "Oops" , well then he had accepted responsibility right there .

    There is the "Right thing" to do , , the "Wrong thing" to do , , and then there is the all skewing "Money angle" to the right and wrong thing . From the sounds of this one , expect to be morally right and financially screwed , cause I doubt the other guy , wrong or not , is gonna be coughing up any $$$ anytime soon .......

  3. #3

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Personally It sounds like you are not at ease flying the Tomcat. It may have been best to have flown it the first few times alone as it was essentially your maiden flight.
    If it is common for more than one plane to be in the air at your field it's on you to control your own plane in a safe manner and avoid other traffic,
    especially a student on a "Buddy-Box".

    It sounds like mistakes were made on both sides of this issue. I would put it down as a hard lesson learned.[&o]
    Gizmo

  4. #4

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    It sounds like you are saying that the trainer plane was chasing yours. Do you think they were doing that intentionally or was it a case of just bad piloting by a student that the instructor failed to correct? If it's the former, you certainly have cause for expected full compensation and should probably file a suit against the instructor. If it's the latter, you've now learned why it's a bad idea to fly a plane you're not well familiar with while someone else is instructing. Yes, the instructor is still liable, but you are also partly to blame for flying during a student flight. Take the Mustang and thank him for stepping up, and chalk it up to a lesson learned.
    You might also use this incident to petition your club to establish some guidelines for student flights if there aren't any already. IMO, when someone is instructing, no one else should be flying aside from other instructors unless they are up way higher than the students will be. My club has a specific evening for student flights during which others can fly but must not interfere with teaching. All other times it's the opposite- instructors must wait their turn until other pilots are finished flying. It's a system that works well and avoids the kinds of issues you had. We also have an unwritten rule that maidens get the airfield all to themselves. That's just simple common sense to me and really should be the rule everywhere.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  5. #5

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    the hobby is the risk of destroyed aircraft. They all have an expiratiuon date. A tomcat should be able to outfly and therefore avoid a trainer. Unless the other pilot was intentionaly flying in a recless manner I believe that your expiration date arrived sooner than you would like but that is life.

  6. #6

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    In my club, midair collisions have always been considered as nobody's fault. However; if the guy was deliberately chasing you around the field to try and crash into you, you should bring it up with a safety officer in your club and have the student's instructor disciplined. Forget about being reimbursed for the plane. I wouldn't fly around either one of those guys from now one.

    Funny thing though. How does a trainer keep up with a Tomcat?

  7. #7

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.


    ORIGINAL: carlgrover

    Funny thing though. How does a trainer keep up with a Tomcat?
    +1

  8. #8

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.


    ORIGINAL: Gizmo-RCU

    Personally It sounds like you are not at ease flying the Tomcat. It may have been best to have flown it the first few times alone as it was essentially your maiden flight.
    If it is common for more than one plane to be in the air at your field it's on you to control your own plane in a safe manner and avoid other traffic,
    especially a student on a ''Buddy-Box''.

    It sounds like mistakes were made on both sides of this issue. I would put it down as a hard lesson learned.[&o]

    I completely agree that you should have made sure there were no other planes in the air until you felt comfortable flying it. On the other hand it sounds like the other guy was deliberately chasing your plane and if that's true then he owes you the full amount of damages and very big apology.
    RC Aircraft/ Three Laws Safe.

  9. #9
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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    If you have witnesses to back up your story [that the guy in the trainer deliberately chased after your plane]....then there should be no problem with giving the guy a choice between repairing your loss or getting booted from the club.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  10. #10

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Many thanks to the people that replyed.
    As to out running the trainer. The trainer was a very light trainer {VMAR stinger) with a OS 46 AX which the instructor had taken control of away from the student,he was in total control from the point of the agressive action. The great plain Tomcat is not a light aircraft with very long Fuselage and not the lightest aircraft around the trainer was the faster of the two. I did try to our run the trainer after the first turn the trainer was a clear winer in the speed race on the day.
    The offending piolt also said straight after the crash (I was collecting the remains) that he thought it was an ARF and the problem would be easly solved with a new one. It was only after the cost factor was realised that a cheaper method of repayment was tryed.
    There in no dought about who was at fault on the day, from anybody but when you figer into the event that now this is going to cost heaps attitude change after a few days.
    The student also had to do his repairs ,not major as his aircraft made it back to the field but there was reasonable damage. The offending piolt had no cost so far for his actions.
    .....bugger.... That went in quick... .

  11. #11
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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Many, many,years ago in my childhood around the age of 8 we raised our own food. This one particular weekend me and my brother was tying chickens up on a string for my father to come and cut the heads off and bleed them out. About a third of the way in, one of the chickens came untied. This headless chicken chased my father all over the yard. Man was my father scared.Which soon turned to anger over our inept tying abilities. The chicken got eaten and I assumed the role of cutting while my father sat and watched. True story!

    Now think of those two airplanes like my father and that chicken and ask yourself, Do you really think the chicken did it intentionally?

    Robert
    Cub Brotherhood #3\\ Ryan STA Brotherhood #4
    Corsair Brotherhood #56\\ Waco Brotherhood #184

  12. #12

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    ORIGINAL: acerc
    Many, many,**years ago in my childhood around the age of 8 we raised our own food. This one particular weekend me and my brother was tying chickens up on a string for my father to come and cut the heads off and bleed them out. About a third of the way in, one of the chickens came untied. This headless chicken chased my father all over the yard. Man was my father scared.**Which soon turned to anger over our inept tying abilities. The chicken got eaten and I assumed the role of cutting while my father sat and watched. True story!

    Now think of those two airplanes like my father and that chicken and ask yourself, *Do you really think the chicken did it intentionally?
    Nice story but somewhat moot as it appears that the "chicken" chasing around Quigleywins' airplane still had his head. Did he intentionally collide with Quigleywins' airplane? Undoubtedly not. Was he recklessy chasing around another model without any consent of the owner of that model? Quite possibly. If so then he is fully at fault and Quiglywins is owed full restitution for his loss. My .02 cents.

  13. #13

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.


    ORIGINAL: Quigleywins

    Many thanks to the people that replyed.
    As to out running the trainer. The trainer was a very light trainer {VMAR stinger) with a OS 46 AX which the instructor had taken control of away from the student,he was in total control from the point of the agressive action. The great plain Tomcat is not a light aircraft with very long Fuselage and not the lightest aircraft around the trainer was the faster of the two. I did try to our run the trainer after the first turn the trainer was a clear winer in the speed race on the day.
    The offending piolt also said straight after the crash (I was collecting the remains) that he thought it was an ARF and the problem would be easly solved with a new one. It was only after the cost factor was realised that a cheaper method of repayment was tryed.
    There in no dought about who was at fault on the day, from anybody but when you figer into the event that now this is going to cost heaps attitude change after a few days.
    The student also had to do his repairs ,not major as his aircraft made it back to the field but there was reasonable damage. The offending piolt had no cost so far for his actions.
    If you guys were in any way racing each other, then IMO, no fault on anyone.
    If, as it sounds, you were trying to avoid him, and he just flat out chased you down and ran into your plane, then he owes you.

  14. #14
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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    The offending piolt also said straight after the crash (I was collecting the remains) that he thought it was an ARF
    Opinion based on trying to interpret one side of a story...

    So he thinks it is OK to fly a plane (that he doesn't even own) into another (that he doesn't own) as long as it is an ARF?

    If he really did have 'full control' at the time, and did not attempt to avoid the collision, I think he owes you something and he should have repaired or replaced the student's plane.

    Should he have to pay collector price for a discontinued kit? not sure about that
    Wing kit in addition to full kit? definitely not
    Engine/Radio parts? yes
    - Carrell

  15. #15
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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    My point was that maybe either or both were making turns in the same direction at the same time by chance. And that neither/ either was intentional. Strange, and seldom seen,  what are the chance of that, does happen.
    Robert
    Cub Brotherhood #3\\ Ryan STA Brotherhood #4
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  16. #16
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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    And maybe, just maybe, the other guy is at home saying the same thing as the OP.
    Robert
    Cub Brotherhood #3\\ Ryan STA Brotherhood #4
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  17. #17
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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Tell ya what, try this............

    Tether a small balloon on a string and let it float up about 300' and out 300' and then try and hit it with a plane.

    Chances are you'll never hit it, then try to hit it moving around at 60 mph. Now try and assign blame for a mid-air.

    Tim

    Be a kid forever, fly models.

  18. #18

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Apparently you've never watched an RC combat match. Granted, with the number of planes moving in such a small space the odds are definitely higher, but those guys hit each other as a result of intentionally flying close constantly.

    If the OP has the story right and understands what the instructor intended to do correctly (that would be intentionally chase a plane that was trying to get away from him) then he owes whatever it costs to restore the plane he broke and whatever it took to fix the trainer. It doesn't matter how much it costs to replace this rare kit; that's what he's liable for if this was truly an act of negligence or malice on his part. If the model is repairable then he should make the repairs or pay to have them done at a reasonable rate. If not, he needs to spring for whatever new parts are needed and the time it takes to put the plane back to flying condition. Anything less has the victim paying the price for another man's stupidity, and that's not right.

    As for club discipline, the victim should give the offender a chance to man up. If he doesn't, he needs to be gone. I personally would let others clubs know of his actions so that they don't accept him as a member either. The most basic responsibility of any club member is to be liable for damages. We carry an insurance policy for hurting people or property in crashes, and we don't fly around planes we can't afford to repair if we break them. I know the guy was just joking around but that just doesn't belong when you aren't wealthy enough to pay for your fun.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  19. #19

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Jester s1 I would fly with you any day any place you have a very clear concept of the rule in the air. As for acerc if were at the same field flying one day just tap me on the sholder and I'll go home .
    .....bugger.... That went in quick... .

  20. #20
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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Tap Tap!
    Robert
    Cub Brotherhood #3\\ Ryan STA Brotherhood #4
    Corsair Brotherhood #56\\ Waco Brotherhood #184

  21. #21

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    SOL if you know what that means.

  22. #22

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    Thanks Quigley. Accidents happen I know, and in the case of a genuine accident where neither party broke rules or did something altogether stupid and irresponsible no one owes anybody anything. But this isn't one of those cases according to what you are describing. Hopefully this was just an isolated case of poor judgment but in any event, if he was chasing you intentionally he owes you an airplane the same or just as good as the one he broke.

    BTW, have you evaluated the plane for repairs? I've had a couple of pretty nasty looking crashes turn out to not be so bad at all. Unless you have lots of splintered wood where a complex structure is simply gone it would probably be easier to fix it than to replace it. An RTF Mustang is fair payment IMO for 6-7 hours of fixit work and a couple of rolls of monokote.
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!

  23. #23

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    You made a decision to fly an aircraft you are uncomfortable with as other aircraft were in the pattern. The only blame that can be laid on anyone is the minute you make a decision to fly with another aircraft up, you are at least 50% at fault, if anything happens. This is especially true when you are flying an unfamiliar airplane and you will be far too focused on flying the airplane to be aware of what's around you.

    When I put my more expensive airplanes up, I pick and chose who I will fly with. But there is always the chance I (or he) will zig when one of us zags. But that is the nature of the beast.

    Flying R/C is alot like gambling. Only bet what you're willing to lose...

  24. #24

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    If he was chasing you intentionally he owes you. I have done a bunch of formation flying as well as combat and one on one it is pretty easy to chase a plane down and cut it to ribbons if you have a faster plane. Good luck collecting anything.

  25. #25

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    RE: What should happen in a case like this And how do you go about forcing the Issue.

    It sounds like the guy is wanting to make things right. He's just balking when he realized how much it was going to cost. If the OP will give him a call and sit down one on one and calmly lay out the cheapest and fairest way for him to restore the plane he'll be hard pressed to say "No." If the OP gets angry and demanding, the conversation will likely turn south quickly. His options if that doesn't work is to try to get him expelled from the club or to go to small claims court. But it really sounds like if the victim will just calmly make his case and listen to what the other guy has to say they can work this out over a cup of coffee (or whatever it is they drink in Australia, maybe a Foster's?).
    No kid, I said break ground and fly into the wind!


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