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Ripped Off By A Fellow Hobbyist.

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Old 04-30-2013, 01:18 PM
  #1
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Okay, so I am now getting a little upset and need some advice and/or help.

On March 28, I sold a brand new in the box DLE-35R to a guy in Clifton NJ. He recieved it on April 1st. It was Signature Confirmation (more on this later). Upon receiving it, he asked to return it and he gave 3 different excuses. Not the end of the world, but a little odd. Within minutes of him asking to return it and me giving him the proper address to return it, He then said he had already shipped it. Again, a little odd. He claimed to have shipped it back on April 4th.

We aksed for a return tracking number 3 or 4 times. Finally I was getting frustrated because he would not give any shipping info and I asked him flat out why he was avoiding the question of tracking. He acted offended and said he had never been talked to in such an unprofessional manner. I pointed out that we had provided him with tracking, insurance and sig confirmation to ensure accurate delivery. He again got upset when we asked direct questions about return tracking. By the 8th, the dirtbag had filed a chargeback on the engine! I am now out $350!

By this time it was clear I was taking a bath on this deal. I could see I had been set-up.

What he did was "refuse" the package 3 days AFTER he accepted it. I guess they wrote return to sender on it and he sent it back. USPS Track & confirm did not show ANY return tracking until almost 14 days later on the 18th when the package was "refused" by him in clifton NJ. Then all the scans showed up And the most important one on April 1st, where it said "Delivered" was now missing.

Long story short, the package has bounced back and forth between NJ & FL 3 or 4 times and as of today, the 29th has yet to be delivered back to us and the chargeback is still open. He will not respond to emails or calls.

Any ideas on what to do? Anybody in the Clifton NJ area want to make some $$$ to recover my product? LOL!
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:02 PM
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Default RE: Ripped Off By A Fellow Hobbyist.

I had a similar issue with a missing package that had a tracking number and delivery confirmation. Tracking and confirmation indicated that the package was delivered. The company was local and after a couple of days I realized I didn't get my stuff. When I tracked it the USPS said the package had been delivered. I called the USPS and finally after fighting my way through their sucky automated phone system I was able to talk to a human. They started tracking it and eventually the postmaster at my local office called me to say she would track, intercept and deliver my package. Surprising enough they did. I would call the USPS and be persistent.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: bullseye000

I had a similar issue with a missing package that had a tracking number and delivery confirmation. Tracking and confirmation indicated that the package was delivered. The company was local and after a couple of days I realized I didn't get my stuff. When I tracked it the USPS said the package had been delivered. I called the USPS and finally after fighting my way through their sucky automated phone system I was able to talk to a human. They started tracking it and eventually the postmaster at my local office called me to say she would track, intercept and deliver my package. Surprising enough they did. I would call the USPS and be persistent.
USPS isn't the issue really to be honest, other than they cannot seem to get the darn package back to us. We ship about 3000 packages a month, so we are very familiar with the USPS merry-go-round. It's more the scumbag in NJ that I am trying to come up with answers for.

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Old 04-30-2013, 06:02 PM
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I have nothing to offer you except my sympathy and the hope that this gets resolved for you . I hate to hear of good people getting ripped off by schemers and crooks and have never particularly liked the idea of waitin on "Karma" to catch up with em . Thieves suck , literally , the dollars out of the rest of society , as we pay the somewhat inflated prices associated with "the cost of doing business" once the losses of thievery are accounted for in the bottom line . Simple math says that to make the same profit , if a few go missing , the rest gotta cost more . Maybe the small companies have no wiggle room in their price margins and some small business owner , ya know , the ones being counted on as the financial saviors of whats left of our economy , once again takes the hit out of his own pocket .
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:52 PM
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Default RE: Ripped Off By A Fellow Hobbyist.

C'mon, all you modelers in or near Clifton, NJ!
Let's get some payback action going!

I'll bet the OP will share the name & address via PM. 

He may even be in your club!

Scumbag. 
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:11 PM
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I would pick up the phone and call Paypal. Be ready with the conversations you have had with the buyer and all tracking numbers, etc. If they smell a rat, they'll hold the judgement on the chargeback. This situation sucks, but if you're on top of it with Paypal, you might come out on top.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: init4fun


I have nothing to offer you except my sympathy and the hope that this gets resolved for you . I hate to hear of good people getting ripped off by schemers and crooks and have never particularly liked the idea of waitin on "Karma" to catch up with em . Thieves suck , literally , the dollars out of the rest of society , as we pay the somewhat inflated prices associated with "the cost of doing business" once the losses of thievery are accounted for in the bottom line . Simple math says that to make the same profit , if a few go missing , the rest gotta cost more . Maybe the small companies have no wiggle room in their price margins and some small business owner , ya know , the ones being counted on as the financial saviors of whats left of our economy , once again takes the hit out of his own pocket .
Thanks much, I appreciate it.



Quote:
ORIGINAL: Hemikiller

I would pick up the phone and call Paypal. Be ready with the conversations you have had with the buyer and all tracking numbers, etc. If they smell a rat, they'll hold the judgement on the chargeback. This situation sucks, but if you're on top of it with Paypal, you might come out on top.
Oh yeah, already have all the documents to them AND to the Clifton NJ Police Department. This isn't our first charge back, but it is the first time someone has methodically followed every dirtbag procedure to defraud us. And to have it happen from a fellow modeler really pisses me off.

Thanks everyone. I do appreciate it.
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:10 AM
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I get that it was inconvenient for you, having your package in limbo, but what did the person that received your package, and returned it, actually do wrong. I agree that he could have been more forth write in providing you with a number for the return, but did he even get a return number?
I have received a package, signed for it, and upon inspecting the quality of the merchandise, I just took it back to the USPS, they returned it, and no problems for anyone.
The person that you shipped to didn't try to deny receiving the package, and put it back in the hands of USPS. I would say your problem is with USPS.
I think the person you sent the package to should have contacted you for an RMA, but he jumped the gun there also.
Unless the USPS is the "Fellow Hobbyist" the title of this thread is incorrect.

Just saying,
Greg
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: OldRookie

I get that it was inconvenient for you, having your package in limbo, but what did the person that received your package, and returned it, actually do wrong. I agree that he could have been more forth write in providing you with a number for the return, but did he even get a return number?
I have received a package, signed for it, and upon inspecting the quality of the merchandise, I just took it back to the USPS, they returned it, and no problems for anyone.
The person that you shipped to didn't try to deny receiving the package, and put it back in the hands of USPS. I would say your problem is with USPS.
I think the person you sent the package to should have contacted you for an RMA, but he jumped the gun there also.
Unless the USPS is the "Fellow Hobbyist" the title of this thread is incorrect.

Just saying,
Greg
What did they do wrong? Okay, did you read my post at all or just glance over it?

Lets' see...

They signed for a package, and then 3 days later dropped it off in the 24 hour parcel chute as "refused". No actual shipping paid for, no insurance provided, no traceable way of returning a $350 package. I'd say that is not meeting your responsibility for adequate shipping of a voluntary return and quite possibly mail fraud, depending on whether or not they opened the package. If they opened it and re-sealed it, it's mail fraud, if not, it a severly bad decision that has now cost me dearly...

They were well aware that we never received the item in return but went ahead and filed a chargeback for the transaction anyway. That seems fraudulent, no? If we received the item back, they would have automatically been refunded upon tracking confirming delivery here. Instead, they can't prove they shipped it back, they can't provide tracking or a receipt for the shipment AND they file chargeback??? Maybe you need a prescription change, because that my friend, is quite a bit wrong.

Then let's add avoding answering emails or phone calls regarding the whereabouts of my item. Then let's add them trying to file a police report against us for harrassment that nearly gets them arrested for filing a FALSE police report. Under the FTC laws governing the Fair Debt Collections Act, I am absolutely allowed to contact the consumer regarding an unpaid debt, provided I follow the rules & regulations, that is NOT harrassment. They provided false accusations to the police, I provided detailed documentation. According to the detective in New Jersey... they were had a visable "shocked" look when the truth was laid out on the table before them. The lied to the detective claiming that they never received the package in the first place, I provided the detective with proof from USPS , a copy of their signature, that they did indeed accept the package. They claimed they never filed a chargeback and were patiently waiting for us to refund them. I produced the documents disclosing the chargeback details, the date when it was filed (it was filed with their knowledge we had not received the item back) and how much it for.

When the package bounced back and forth numerous times and it was presented to them on the 18th of April, they refused it AGAIN, knowing full well now that FORCERTAIN we did not get the package back or have teh package in our possession. The chargeback was filed AND PAIDbefore the 18th. While they stood there, they KNEW they had their money back and my package was not with us. A respectable person would have called us and said they had the package back and ask what to do. I'd have gladly sent a call tag for it right then and there.

And for the record, while you may enjoy siding with scumbag criminal who do not follow the rules, both od the legal AND moral kind, almost everything you wrote is nothing more than a senseless jab. An RMA number? What does that have to do with anything ? That isn't tracking, that isn't anything. An RMAis an internal means of tracking and approving a return item. It is not postage, not tracking nor proof of anything so had I provided a RMA, what would have changed? NOTHING would have changed.....

If you received a package, inspected it and took it back to USPS, and they didn't charge you for return shipping.... Then you escaped being bagged for mail fraud and that clerk could have lost their job for that. If the package is unopened, then USPS policy will allow you to "refuse" it or mark it "RTS". That is simply the law.

What did they do wrong you asked... I think the more important questions is... What Did They Do Right? And that answer is... Not A Damn Thing.

I am out $350. No Product and I was debited $350 weeks ago on their chargeback. That is no different from stealing off the shelf at walmart in my opinion. The customer was/is responsible for returning that package safely to us, USPS just componded it with their inept ability to retrun a package, but the liability still lays with the customer not following proper shipping procedure.

Greg, next time you think you know something... just keep it to yourself. Siding with a scumbag criminal defrauding a hard working businessman trying to keep his kid fed and the lights has no place on ANY forum or in this Country. In fact, that is almost un-American.

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Old 05-03-2013, 06:21 AM
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Same thing happened to me several years ago. Customer did a charge back and still had the item. Let me tell you the CC jerks that money right out and tell you by mail ten days later. He told them he had returned it to me and I wouldn't refund the money.
I keep good records and I did win but it took 30 days to get my money back. At least he wasn't a RC'er, just some idiot off the street.
I'd be fighting with the CC company too. And if I have to move my account I would. Dennis
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:25 AM
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[] I really , Really , REALLY hope I'm wrong , , , But , My gut feeling says that when the package is finally returned , there ain't gonna be any brand new engine in it []

I've read about this very same type of scam over and over . "Buyer" buys on credit , receives item , claims "not as described" on the chargeback , and then sends something OTHER than the correct merchandise back , and the poor ripped off seller ends up not only out the money , but with a useless box of rocks instead of the product he sent . The deliberate "snafu" on sending it back without paying for the postage all but ensures that it will take forever to get back to the merchant , buying the thief time to try to claim ignorance as to what happened to the contents of the package .

My take here is that the seller did nothing wrong , except to be the unfortunate one that got preyed upon by a larcenous scumbag . Kinda shakes one's faith in the supposed "goodness" that some claim resides in all .
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:54 AM
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The CC companies take the side of the buyer every time, it's up to the seller to prove he's the honest one.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:45 AM
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ORIGINAL: DadsToysBG

The CC companies take the side of the buyer every time, it's up to the seller to prove he's the honest one.
That is correct. However, this dirtbag filed the Hardest chargeback to fight, a Merchandise chargeback. It may take up to 75 days to know the outcome. We have provided every shred of data we can. from their initial lies, to admitting to marking the package "refused" / "return tosender". The proof of never having received the return was also submitted.

This isn't my first rodeo with this type of chargeback. We are current 1/9 in these chargebacks. Meaning of 10 recents events, we have only prevailed in 1 case. The rest I took in the seat of my britches.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:55 AM
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It sounds like you found another guy with some Homo Erectus DNA. They've been popping up here and there. The front part of their brains aren't as fully developed as the Sapien's..so they lack the ability to plan ahead, keep promises..basically they just aren't capable of alltruistic reasoning.
All it takes is "one drop" of Erectus' DNA to create this mental deficit....I've been told....

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: combatpigg

It sounds like you found another guy with some Homo Erectus DNA. They've been popping up here and there. The front part of their brains aren't as fully developed as the Sapien's..so they lack the ability to plan ahead, keep promises..basically they just aren't capable of alltruistic reasoning.
All it takes is "one drop" of Erectus' DNA to create this mental deficit....I've been told....



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Old 05-03-2013, 12:56 PM
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GSG, sorry to hear of your troubles in this case. Wow, it is so darn frustrating. I too wonder if the buyer ever really sent the engine back to you, and if he sent you the same engine if/when you actually receive a box. Good luck, just want you to know there are those who feel the pain with you. I have had my small share of bad experiences like this. I lost one case where the fleabay seller just never sent me my item. Fleabay and PayPal were of no help. Recently it almost happened again but this time Fleabay actually resolved in my favor so I got my money back. Try not to let it get you down too much...go fly and have fun, and know that this kind of idiot gets what he deserves eventually. Keep on keepin' on! Jon
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:27 PM
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Default RE: Ripped Off By A Fellow Hobbyist.

Giant Scale Gasser,

What is the name of your RC products company?
What is your web address? If you are shipping 3000+ packages a month the name should be familiar.

Thanks in advance,
Greg
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: OldRookie

Giant Scale Gasser,

What is the name of your RC products company?
What is your web address? If you are shipping 3000+ packages a month the name should be familiar.

Thanks in advance,
Greg
Our business model does not focus on aircraft, although we are a dealer for DLE, Hitec & other aero type manufacturers, we are primarily surface vehicle & replacement parts oriented, and it really has no bearing on this issue, nor will I spam it here.

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Old 05-03-2013, 05:32 PM
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I sell a fair amount on the internet even to the point of disposing of large RC estates with hundreds and even thousands of items. Prices are very fair and marked firm where no haggling is wanted. When the buyer agrees to buy an item it is packaged and postage and insurance calculated. I email the buyer the total and when I receive a US or Canadian money order for the amount the item is shipped same day. No exceptions. Items have all been posted with pictures so the buyer knows what he is getting. It is up to him to request more pictures if he wants. Only when he is satisfied does the sale go through. I don't deal with paypal or credit cards sorry just too much chance of things like this happening. My sale my rules.

Its sad this happens it seems to be happening more frequently as well.

Dennis
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:56 PM
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ORIGINAL: Propworn

I email the buyer the total and when I receive a US or Canadian money order for the amount the item is shipped same day. No exceptions. My sale my rules.

Its sad this happens it seems to be happening more frequently as well.

Dennis
Is there any chance of money order fraud..?
For some reason I thought that a money order needed to be verified by the 2 banks involved with the transaction before you actually get credited with those funds.
So in other words I wouldn't send the purchased item until the money order had been verified.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:00 PM
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Sorry I wasn't clear but I deal in US postal or Canadain postal money orders only. They take a very dim view of someone forging thier product.

Dennis
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:20 PM
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ORIGINAL: Propworn

Items have all been posted with pictures so the buyer knows what he is getting. It is up to him to request more pictures if he wants. Only when he is satisfied does the sale go through. I don't deal with paypal or credit cards sorry just too much chance of things like this happening. My sale my rules.
That is all well and good, if and I stress IF the buyer actually looks at the details of the sale. I cannot tell you how many times everyday we have to answer questions like "What color is this gadget" when the title of the listing Clearly and Boldly reads "Yellow Widget For Sale" and the details of the listing clearly repeat that it's a yellow widget.

We have all of our business policies displayed clearly for anyone to read. For example we answer 30 or emails every week about customers wanting to pick up order and our displayed policies clearly state that we are "Mail order only and customer pick-up are prohibited, no exceptions".

I do like the idea of US Postal Money orders, and we have used them in the past on a limited basis, the problem with them is two-fold. First the consumer does not want to wait that long for an order to be processed & shipped so it limits the customer demographic for your sales. And secondly, for example we accept anywhere from 90 - 125 individual payments each day, we could never take that much time to deal with that if they were all M.O.

But more power to you, if you can do that, and require MO's, God bless ya. That is the way to do it.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:45 AM
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2013, the modern times. 20 yrs ago to buy something you have to go to the store and pay with green Washingtons.
Crooks have evolved and they are everywhere. Hopefully you get your money back.
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Old 05-04-2013, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Giant_Scale_Gasser


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Propworn

Items have all been posted with pictures so the buyer knows what he is getting. It is up to him to request more pictures if he wants. Only when he is satisfied does the sale go through. I don't deal with paypal or credit cards sorry just too much chance of things like this happening. My sale my rules.
That is all well and good, if and I stress IF the buyer actually looks at the details of the sale. I cannot tell you how many times everyday we have to answer questions like ''What color is this gadget'' when the title of the listing Clearly and Boldly reads ''Yellow Widget For Sale'' and the details of the listing clearly repeat that it's a yellow widget.

We have all of our business policies displayed clearly for anyone to read. For example we answer 30 or emails every week about customers wanting to pick up order and our displayed policies clearly state that we are ''Mail order only and customer pick-up are prohibited, no exceptions''.

I do like the idea of US Postal Money orders, and we have used them in the past on a limited basis, the problem with them is two-fold. First the consumer does not want to wait that long for an order to be processed & shipped so it limits the customer demographic for your sales. And secondly, for example we accept anywhere from 90 - 125 individual payments each day, we could never take that much time to deal with that if they were all M.O.

But more power to you, if you can do that, and require MO's, God bless ya. That is the way to do it.

It was not meant as criticism in fact I sympathize with what the retailer faces today. The more sophisticated the payment methods the more adept the thief seems to become. It soon rivals the ability for the retailer to stay on top of the many different scams that keep popping up. In fact this is what has driven me to using country of purchase money orders only. If the customer cannot understand my small profit margin drives this he has every right to shop else where no hard feelings I totally understand.

In the case of disposing of estates my responsibility is to the estate. Since the items offered for sale are not mine in the first place. I have found cash on the barrelhead via postal money orders the best method of transaction. In the case of estate sales sometimes it is impossible to completely verify the completeness for instance of kits which there can be many some of which I am not familiar with. I feel I have a reasonable responsibility to the buyer as well. In one case in particular I had mailed off a vintage kit that had the whole tail feather parts sheets missing. The moneys had been turned over to the estate but in my contract with the estate there is a clause that takes this into consideration. In this case the executor agreed and the total cost including shipping was returned to the buyer and he was instructed to keep the kit. First of all the kit was rare, the buyer was only informing us the kit was not complete he felt he could easily replicate the few pieces that were missing and was asking for nothing just letting us know what he found. He even said we did not have to return his money but the estate sale was so successful and stress free we felt it was a nice way to say thank you to all of the nice buyers out there. I will also state the item and shipping was less than $50 so all in all it was no big deal.

The few items that are returned are refunded in full only after I receive the item. It is up to the person returning the item to insure it even asking for a signature. When I receive it and inspect it to make sure it’s in the same condition it was sent out a full refund including shipping both ways will be issued. I explain this in detail before the item is returned. I loose on any returned item it only maters that I protect my reputation from the ones who would claim to have returned something and kept it instead. Its only when either the cash or the item crosses my door step do things get initiated. Granted it’s not the fastest or least expensive way to do things but I have never had one complaint that wasn’t resolved so that neither of us felt that we have been taken advantage of.
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:05 AM
  #25
tony0707
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Inverness, FL
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Default RE: Ripped Off By A Fellow Hobbyist.

Why are you sending anyone an engine that has not been paid for in advance ?
I do hope this works out for you
I truly hate to hear about anyone being taken for a ride like this
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