The Clubhouse If it doesn't fit in any other category and is about general RC stuff then post it here at the Clubhouse.

Filtering Glow Fuel.

Reply
Old 06-21-2013, 06:41 AM
  #1
KaP2011
Thread Starter
 
KaP2011's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Calhoun, GA
Posts: 941
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Filtering Glow Fuel.

Is there any way to filter out moisture from glow fuel? I've lost a quart from the last 2 gallons of Omega 15% fuel I've used due to moisture. I keep the container sealed between fuelings but it sucks air in when I fuel so I'm still getting moisture. I hate the thought of throwing away a quart of every gallon I use.
KaP2011 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 08:14 AM
  #2
JPMacG
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Ivyland, PA
Posts: 2,262
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

Short answer is no, there is no practical way to remove water from your fuel.

However, my experience is that 2-storkes will run pretty well on water contaminated fuel, but 4-strokes will not.

I've never had a jug go bad from just the air that is sucked in when I fuel up a plane. I have had jugs go bad in long-term storage when the seals on the bottles were not good. If the bottle seal is not good the jug will 'breathe' during temperature and atmospheric pressure changes. I can tell when I have a well sealed bottle. The bottle will appear puffed up or sucked in depending on the temperature/atmospheric pressure.
JPMacG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 08:31 AM
  #3
ptmac3
 
ptmac3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Riverhead, NY
Posts: 190
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

I used to have the same problem. I use a 1 qt. container to hold fuel and made a small Styrofoam cooler just the right size to keep it in. Fits right in my flight box. I use an electric pump to transfer the fuel. I only open the container to replenish the fuel. I also purchased a real cheapo Styrofoam cooler to leave 1 qt. bottles of fuel in. I leave that in the car. I only fly 40/60 size aircraft so it's the right size for me. You could, obviously, make on that's larger. But I haven't thrown away a qt. of fuel since or had a poorly running engine due to watered down fuel. The 1 qt. container I use is an empty sterile water bottle from a hospital. It's rectangular and has a large cap about the same size as for a 1 gal. bottle that allowed me to mount fuel fittings on. The whole idea is to keep the fuel out of the sun and cool.
ptmac3 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 09:06 AM
  #4
Edwin
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Leander, TX
Posts: 6,202
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

I've seen fuel so water logged it wouldnt run. Helped a guy last year that was having tuning problems in his 2-stroke. He didnt know how old it was and it was not stored with the cap on, just the cap with the fittings on it. My fuel ran fine, went back to his, wouldnt run. I store my fuel on a piece of 2x12 sitting on the garage floor to keep it from direct contact on the slab.
Edwin
Edwin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 10:08 AM
  #5
KaP2011
Thread Starter
 
KaP2011's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Calhoun, GA
Posts: 941
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

My engines are both 2 and 4 stroke. I always use a filter and when I'm done flying I pump whatever is left in the tank back into the jug. I have read that that is not a good idea but I've never had any problems that I know of. It's only the last couple of gallons that I've had a problem with. The idea with the smaller container sounds like a good one. I would probably need a 1/2 gallon size because I will go thru that much in one day of flying, sometimes more.
Last year I used a jug of 5% Omega that had been stored in a closet for about 8 years with no problems.
KaP2011 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 10:16 AM
  #6
ptmac3
 
ptmac3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Riverhead, NY
Posts: 190
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: KaP2011

..........when I'm done flying I pump whatever is left in the tank back into the jug. I have read that that is not a good idea but I've never had any problems that I know of..........
Same with me.
ptmac3 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 10:59 AM
  #7
jester_s1
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,265
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

I pump my old fuel back and store the jugs with the fuel cap fittings still on. I've had jugs go 3-4 months like that with no problems in North Texas humidity. I'd wonder if you got hold of a bad batch of fuel with it going bad so fast.
jester_s1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 12:04 PM
  #8
KaP2011
Thread Starter
 
KaP2011's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Calhoun, GA
Posts: 941
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: jester_s1

I'd wonder if you got hold of a bad batch of fuel with it going bad so fast.
I hope not, I just bought a new case of it, and both jugs came from the new case.
KaP2011 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 12:38 PM
  #9
Jim Thomerson
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 4,086
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

I fuel using a syringe, with the cap off. Put the cap back on when finished. When I get down to about a quart in the bottle, I open a new bottle. After it gets down a ways, I pour the leftover quart in. Never a problem. I have a gallon jug with about a quart of fuel in it which is around 30 years old. I occasionally run it in an engine on the bench. It seems OK. I'm flying with four year old fuel at the moment. I think the problem with loosely capped fuel is not water absorption, but loss of methanol through evaporation. No data to support my thought, however.
Jim Thomerson is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 02:38 PM
  #10
greenjeep
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: , FL
Posts: 30
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

Break it down into smaller quantities.
http://www.activepowersports.com/gre...llon-gpmp4150/
http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/...?model=S-13509
http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/...yle-Jugs-White
U-line also has 16 and 32 ounce bottles.
greenjeep is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 03:41 PM
  #11
Uncas
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Peters, MO,
Posts: 742
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

How can you tell if there is moisture in your fuel?
Uncas is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 04:38 PM
  #12
KaP2011
Thread Starter
 
KaP2011's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Calhoun, GA
Posts: 941
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

You have droplets of water on the inside top of the jug when you get down around a quart or so.
KaP2011 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 07:02 PM
  #13
byrne1157
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Mount Morris, MI
Posts: 106
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

I use 2 lines to fuel my planes with. One from the pump, and one to the return. I use cableties to keep them together. Now I don't spill, or lose any fuel while fueling, and my fuel isn't exposed to the air quite so much. I use 2 different colors of tubing to tell the difference between them, and a small piece of tube to connect them together while not in use...
byrne1157 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2013, 10:46 PM
  #14
bjr_93tz
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 897
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: KaP2011

You have droplets of water on the inside top of the jug when you get down around a quart or so.
I get that all the time, methanol will evaporate out of the fuel and condense on the container walls forming droplets just like water in a plastic bottle, just give it a shake and don't worry about it unless you really notice the engine isn't running properly.

There's no way that water is evaporating out of your fuel and forming those drops. Distilling water out of Methanol is not that easy...

bjr_93tz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 12:10 AM
  #15
ytrewq
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Swansea, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 64
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

I pass all my fuel, both I.C. and turbine through an item called " Mr Funnel ". It is made for boating people to get water out of their fuel. It is a yellow plastic funnel with a built in very fine filter that will not let water molecules through. Got mine from a local ship chandler, and quite inexpensive. I have some drag racing friends who pass their Methanol through one, and they swear by it.

Alan.
ytrewq is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 02:20 AM
  #16
KaP2011
Thread Starter
 
KaP2011's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Calhoun, GA
Posts: 941
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

Quote:
ORIGINAL: KaP2011

You have droplets of water on the inside top of the jug when you get down around a quart or so.
I get that all the time, methanol will evaporate out of the fuel and condense on the container walls forming droplets just like water in a plastic bottle, just give it a shake and don't worry about it unless you really notice the engine isn't running properly.

There's no way that water is evaporating out of your fuel and forming those drops. Distilling water out of Methanol is not that easy...

That's interesting, I didn't know that. You learn something new everyday. I know that if I fill my truck 1/2 full and let it sit for a week, it runs crappy and rattles very badly. I wonder if something similar is happening,I've read somewhere that the ethonol will seperate from the gasolene if allowed to sit for awhile.I always thought the droplets in the glowfueljug were water droplets.

The idea with the "Mr Funnel" is a good one. I remember useing one of those in the past when fueling heavy equipment from a tank in a pick-up. Amazon has them for about$19, I'll have to order one.
KaP2011 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 04:31 AM
  #17
bjr_93tz
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ToowoombaQLD, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 897
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

Water and petrol don't mix so they can be separated out via mechanical separation or filters. A quick check on the Mr Funnel website reveals that water in shaken fuel mixes can pass through the filters, letting the fuel/water mix settle allows the water to form big enough blobs to get trapped in the filter.

Water and alchohol mix completely and can't be separated mechanically otherwise teenagers would have figured out the they can pour their bottle of vodka through a filter and get 95% alchohol or better. Once the water gets into an alcohol fuel, it's pretty much game over unless you've got access to specialised equipment. I never put ethanol based fuels in my vehicles and have yet to experience this poor running after a few weeks but I have heard of it happening.

The stable temperature things is about preventing a partiailly sealed container sucking in and pushing out air every day, and as has been pointed out a properly sealed jug will puff up when hot and suck in it's sides when cold. The contents themselves don't really care about a 20 degree thermal cycling every day, although exposure to light is something that should be minimised

I filter the fuel going into the plane's tank, then from the tank to the carb. I figure twice is enough on medium to large sized motors although on some of the smaller engines people can be really fussy about it as their fuel passages are really tiny.

Like everything, people have their tried and tested ways that work for them and about the only wrong thing you can do with fuel is leave the lid open for a few hours in humid weather or filter it through a wet muslin cheese cloth.

Cheers

bjr_93tz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 06:35 AM
  #18
dirtybird
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
Posts: 5,768
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

Move to Arizona. The air here is so dry it will suck the moisture out of your fuel.
dirtybird is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 06:58 AM
  #19
Quikturn
 
Quikturn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 741
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

I have an idea. How about a fuel container with a bladder? That way, no air gets sucked in the bladder when fueling.

Personally, I use small plastic container at the field and fill it as necessary to keep the fuel fresh as possible.

For defueling, I use a separate fuel tank (10 Sullivan) and its the first fuel to be used on the next flight. It never gets mixed in with fresh fuel from the jug.
Quikturn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 08:15 AM
  #20
Sport_Pilot
 
Sport_Pilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 16,914
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: KaP2011

Is there any way to filter out moisture from glow fuel? I've lost a quart from the last 2 gallons of Omega 15% fuel I've used due to moisture. I keep the container sealed between fuelings but it sucks air in when I fuel so I'm still getting moisture. I hate the thought of throwing away a quart of every gallon I use.

Engines tolerate a good amount of moisture in the fuel. The alcohol completely dissolves the water and the alcohol has a lower boiling point than water. So even if you have water in the fuel the droplets are alcohol not water. In fact that is how you distill alcohol to include methanol, by heating the water and alcohol mixture below the water boiling point and above the alcohol boiling point then condense the alcohol.

You will not get much air and moisture in the fuel when the cap is uncovered between fillings. When the fuel is burned much of the hydrogen in the alcohol combines with oxygen to form water. So the muffler pressure tap is pumping water back in your fuel. Still this usually isn't enough moisture in the fuel. Even when you leave it uncapped you often will not get water in the fuel unless the fuel is below the flashpoint of methanol.(52degrees F). That is because the methanol is evaporating and unless a breeze is pushing the vapor out it will prevent the moisture from getting in. Often people complaining about the fuel gaining so much moisture it won't run, the problem is actually that so much methanol has evaporated that there is too much oil and nitro compared to the methanol that the engine will not start.
Sport_Pilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 08:26 AM
  #21
flycatch
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Barstow, CA
Posts: 1,993
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot


Quote:
ORIGINAL: KaP2011

Is there any way to filter out moisture from glow fuel? I've lost a quart from the last 2 gallons of Omega 15% fuel I've used due to moisture. I keep the container sealed between fuelings but it sucks air in when I fuel so I'm still getting moisture. I hate the thought of throwing away a quart of every gallon I use.

Engines tolerate a good amount of moisture in the fuel. The alcohol completely dissolves the water and the alcohol has a lower boiling point than water. So even if you have water in the fuel the droplets are alcohol not water. In fact that is how you distill alcohol to include methanol, by heating the water and alcohol mixture below the water boiling point and above the alcohol boiling point then condense the alcohol.

You will not get much air and moisture in the fuel when the cap is uncovered between fillings. When the fuel is burned much of the hydrogen in the alcohol combines with oxygen to form water. So the muffler pressure tap is pumping water back in your fuel. Still this usually isn't enough moisture in the fuel. Even when you leave it uncapped you often will not get water in the fuel unless the fuel is below the flashpoint of methanol. (52 degrees F). That is because the methanol is evaporating and unless a breeze is pushing the vapor out it will prevent the moisture from getting in. Often people complaining about the fuel gaining so much moisture it won't run, the problem is actually that so much methanol has evaporated that there is too much oil and nitro compared to the methanol that the engine will not start.
Bingo.
flycatch is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2013, 05:29 PM
  #22
do335a
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Posts: 544
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Filtering Glow Fuel.

Of course, if you ran an engine such as my old OS 1.08FSR, it would run on any weasel snot that you could find and not have a problem.

It made no difference how old the fuel was or how it had been mistreated, short of filling a partially empty jug with water and trying to run on that.

The Mr. Funnel is great at separating water from gasoline. Never tried it with glow fuel. The alcohol adsobs (which is different for absorbs) water vapor. So maybe it will work there as well.
do335a is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:56 AM.