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  1. #126

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.



    Most radios come with a safety throttle down device. No arming unless throttle is down.
    The rule is like the perverbial "DEPARTMENT OF REDUNDANCY DEPARTMENT" OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


  2. #127
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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    Absolutely ... put it to a vote.

    And if the ''collective'' votes that you should not have a gun ... well, then, you have an absolute duty to give 'em up. Or, you can go play in ''another sandbox''.

    That's how it works. Isn't it?
    That's how it works.

    Hey pmerritt - Grandpa?, Grandma?, get your butt out of the kitchen? Really?!? Dang.
    "We’re retrieving the seed — then we’re done defending the humans."

  3. #128

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    Absolutely ... put it to a vote.

    And if the ''collective'' votes that you should not have a gun ... well, then, you have an absolute duty to give 'em up. Or, you can go play in ''another sandbox''.

    That's how it works. Isn't it?
    This might be true in your country and i have video's of them taking your guns away but thats all on you and wont happen here . I still have ALL my guns and buying more every month . I think you went a long stretch from unpluging your lipo to taking away your guns but thats part of the reason you lost yours. lol joe

  4. #129

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    ORIGINAL: joebahl

    ]This might be true in your country and i have video's of them taking your guns away but thats all on you and wont happen here . I still have ALL my guns and buying more every month . I think you went a long stretch from unpluging your lipo to taking away your guns but thats part of the reason you lost yours. lol joe





    I was pretty sure that your fondness for "let's take a vote on it" ... would be conditional on whether it suits your personal agenda. And I was right about that.

    As soon as you cry, "Let's take a vote." then the lipos issue becomes exactly the same as the guns issue. In both instances, the claim is made that a vote legitimises the imposition of one man's will over that of another man.







    Yes, you still have some guns. But, you ain't keeping 'em.





  5. #130

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    ORIGINAL: joebahl

    ]This might be true in your country and i have video's of them taking your guns away but thats all on you and wont happen here . I still have ALL my guns and buying more every month . I think you went a long stretch from unpluging your lipo to taking away your guns but thats part of the reason you lost yours. lol joe





    I was pretty sure that your fondness for ''let's take a vote on it'' ... would be conditional on whether it suits your personal agenda. And I was right about that.

    As soon as you cry, ''Let's take a vote.'' then the lipos issue becomes exactly the same as the guns issue. In both instances, the claim is made that a vote legitimises the imposition of one man's will over that of another man.







    Yes, you still have some guns. But, you ain't keeping 'em.




    Iam pretty sure you have ever heard the saying ( You can pull my guns from my cold dead hands ) where you are but its alive and well here. The airplane clubs here vote these rules if you dont like them vote them out . You can run for office in clubs here and help change rules but just doing what ever you want to is not the right way to make change. Again its easy to uplug my planes because i have a arming plug on the bigger ones. Its also easy to carry them 20 or 30 feet to the pitts or pull them so there is no reason for me to make a stink about a little safety . Its guys online thumping their chest saying they want to take away my RIGHTS . lmao

  6. #131

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    How many un-Constitutional firearms laws do you have ... 20,000 is it?

    I suppose that the very next one will be "the line in the sand".

    Once you agree to settle issues by voting, you are finished as an individual. It's just a matter of time.

  7. #132

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    How many un-Constitutional firearms laws do you have ... 20,000 is it?

    I suppose that the very next one will be ''the line in the sand''.

    Once you agree to settle issues by voting, you are finished as an individual. It's just a matter of time.
    If the new laws will help stop 20+ kids from getting killed in their own school iam all for them .I have a ten year old son myself and would not want some nut getting a gun and hurting anymore children. If its just to get rid of guns ,thats not going to happen here. NOW if unpluging your lipo stops anyone from getting hurt in the pitts just like the gun laws iam for it . You guys act like they are trying take your planes away from you or tell you you cant fly . joe

  8. #133

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    Absolutely ... put it to a vote.

    And if the ''collective'' votes that you should not have a gun ... well, then, you have an absolute duty to give 'em up. Or, you can go play in ''another sandbox''.

    That's how it works. Isn't it?
    Nope. Totally irrelevant. My comment is directed at a club activity which people join of their own volition and pay for the privledge.

    You are speaking of the RIGHTS of CITIZENS. Not the PRIVLEDGES of MEMBERS.

    Words mean things, don't they?

    jess

  9. #134

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.


    ORIGINAL: joebahl


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    How many un-Constitutional firearms laws do you have ... 20,000 is it?

    I suppose that the very next one will be ''the line in the sand''.

    Once you agree to settle issues by voting, you are finished as an individual. It's just a matter of time.
    If the new laws will help stop 20+ kids from getting killed in their own school iam all for them .I have a ten year old son myself and would not want some nut getting a gun and hurting anymore children. If its just to get rid of guns ,thats not going to happen here. NOW if unpluging your lipo stops anyone from getting hurt in the pitts just like the gun laws iam for it . You guys act like they are trying take your planes away from you or tell you you cant fly . joe
    Well, you know the 2 main reason kids are removed from school according to the Department of Education in Minnesota? Possession or weapons or drugs.

    Weird world we live in...

    Gerry

  10. #135

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.


    ORIGINAL: GerKonig


    ORIGINAL: joebahl


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    How many un-Constitutional firearms laws do you have ... 20,000 is it?

    I suppose that the very next one will be ''the line in the sand''.

    Once you agree to settle issues by voting, you are finished as an individual. It's just a matter of time.
    If the new laws will help stop 20+ kids from getting killed in their own school iam all for them .I have a ten year old son myself and would not want some nut getting a gun and hurting anymore children. If its just to get rid of guns ,thats not going to happen here. NOW if unpluging your lipo stops anyone from getting hurt in the pitts just like the gun laws iam for it . You guys act like they are trying take your planes away from you or tell you you cant fly . joe
    Well, you know the 2 main reason kids are removed from school according to the Department of Education in Minnesota? Possession or weapons or drugs.

    Weird world we live in...

    Gerry
    What else can kids do in Minnesota ,i went there once and if had stayed for more than a week fishing trip i think i would have been looking for some drugs too. joe

  11. #136

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    Conditions on allowing people to utilize the facilities of a PRIVATE piece of property like a flying field do not parallel very well with an inherent human right that is guaranteed (thankfully) by a country's constitution. (Yes, I am aware that pretty much every single gun law on the books is unconstitutional, just imagine how bad things would be WITHOUT the Second Amendment!)

    Let's also remember that, like gun laws, many exceptionally retarded and ineffective laws (in the US: Patriot Act, 1994 AWB, NY's new SAFE act, NFA of 1934, the Brady bill, the FISA bill, etc) have been passed largely because, no matter how much it infringes on personal liberty or privacy, "if it saves X number of lives, it's worth it!" Taken to its logical end, this rationale would eventually have us all living in padded cells while our government "protectors" cared for us and watched out for us. Let's ban cooking utensils....hey, it MIGHT save ONE life, so it's worth it, right? Let's get rid of SUVs, because they tend to tip over....it might save a life, so it's worth it!!!!!

    This isn't really an attack on the OP's new club rules (while I do not entirely agree with the new rules, they are not completely unreasonable, at least). Rather, it is an attack on the flawed logic that banning or controlling an otherwise legitimate item or activity should be forced upon the populace simply because of some abstract, POSSIBLE situation in which a death or injury MIGHT be avoided.

    Matt
    Crashes are OPTIONAL. Fun is mandatory.

  12. #137

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle


    Once you agree to settle issues by voting, you are finished as an individual. It's just a matter of time.
    Perhaps.

    But that royalty/parliamentary thing hasn't worked out so well for you guys, in regards to "individuality", now has it?

    You know, over the years, and four different clubs, I have noticed that there are three basic types of people involved in this rule business...

    1. The Rebel- he resents ANY rules/regulations and in fact bristles at the slightest hint of authority. And, of course, HE would never do anything unsafe or annoying, so he "doan need no steenkin' rules!"

    2. The Nazi- he resents ANY non-conformity, is usually a liberal, and can be for any type of rule... as long as it is compulsory.

    3. The Average Guy- he just wants to enjoy his hobby with the least bit of hassle possible. But he has limits... he's all for expulsion/etc. when The Rebel finally goes full retard. And when The Nazi proposes a particularly onerous rule suggestion, he begins thinking homicidal thoughts.

    The real answer to this issue is the sort of club I belong to; a "benevolent dictatorship" is, I suppose, the best way to describe it. The president-for-life is also the property owner, which simplifies things greatly. To wit: what he says goes, period. You want a new rule? Make your pitch to him. He may agree with it and implement it immediately; he may "take it under advisement" and talk to other club members about it; or he may tell you to go pound sand... politely, of course.

    There are no cliques, no alliances, no secret back-channel meetings/discussions. By God, it was SO refreshing to run across that, after so many years of club politics and small-minded cretins ruining everybody's fun. And it works. I've been a member of that club for going on 15 years now. It was there a long time before I found it.

    This thread was of particular interest to me, because I just got my first electric plane...to used at a club comprised mainly of big gas scale warbirds and sport/aerobatic types.

    Of course, as threads of this nature are wont to do, it went totally sideways. Human nature is the same, whatever the endeavor. I guess its good that we are consistent about that, anyway...

    .

  13. #138

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    I can't believe the amount of whining in here?! Anyone that hooks up their flight pack before being at a starting table or at the flight line to taxi out (and without having an arming switch which BTW, is a great point here as it solves all the issues with wing mounting and whatever else prevents you from plugging in right before takeoff), simply doesn't respect what these electrics can do to your fingers or those of curious people who may not see a spinning prop or hear an engine and get careless. The APC e-props are sharp as knives to boot so this really is a safety measure that many should heed if they aren't smart enough to do it already. From my micros to my 2M F3A and 120mm EDF's, all of them get connected AT the flight line because it's safer and with minor planning, not a big deal at all...

    Jack

  14. #139

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.


    ORIGINAL: LSP972


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle


    Once you agree to settle issues by voting, you are finished as an individual. It's just a matter of time.
    Perhaps.

    But that royalty/parliamentary thing hasn't worked out so well for you guys, in regards to ''individuality'', now has it?

    You know, over the years, and four different clubs, I have noticed that there are three basic types of people involved in this rule business...

    1. The Rebel- he resents ANY rules/regulations and in fact bristles at the slightest hint of authority. And, of course, HE would never do anything unsafe or annoying, so he ''doan need no steenkin' rules!''

    2. The Nazi- he resents ANY non-conformity, is usually a liberal, and can be for any type of rule... as long as it is compulsory.

    3. The Average Guy- he just wants to enjoy his hobby with the least bit of hassle possible. But he has limits... he's all for expulsion/etc. when The Rebel finally goes full retard. And when The Nazi proposes a particularly onerous rule suggestion, he begins thinking homicidal thoughts.

    The real answer to this issue is the sort of club I belong to; a ''benevolent dictatorship'' is, I suppose, the best way to describe it. The president-for-life is also the property owner, which simplifies things greatly. To wit: what he says goes, period. You want a new rule? Make your pitch to him. He may agree with it and implement it immediately; he may ''take it under advisement'' and talk to other club members about it; or he may tell you to go pound sand... politely, of course.

    There are no cliques, no alliances, no secret back-channel meetings/discussions. By God, it was SO refreshing to run across that, after so many years of club politics and small-minded cretins ruining everybody's fun. And it works. I've been a member of that club for going on 15 years now. It was there a long time before I found it.

    This thread was of particular interest to me, because I just got my first electric plane...to used at a club comprised mainly of big gas scale warbirds and sport/aerobatic types.

    Of course, as threads of this nature are wont to do, it went totally sideways. Human nature is the same, whatever the endeavor. I guess its good that we are consistent about that, anyway...

    .
    Wth your first electrict plane ,welcome to the dark side . I have about 20 more nitro planes to sell off of the 75 or so i had plus a couple big gas planes and iam flying all electrict then. Alot more easyer for me and building multi motor planes like i do is alot more fun to fly. joe

  15. #140
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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    Something that keeps coming back to me throughout this thread is something my dad used to say.

    "Nothing is fool proof because fools are ingenious".

    You cannot legislate against stupidity. Stupidity will always find a way. It's the natural order of things. Not everyone was meant to grow old enough to reproduce.

    Your club will make rules to prevent folks from cutting their finger off in the pits but at some point these same people will put an airplane into a windshield of a car on the highway just off the field, the club house window, a members child, or the roof of a neighbors house.

    Better to let them cut their fingers off and find a new hobby. It's the natural order of things.
    "Well - Nothing bad can happen now."

  16. #141

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    It's not just YOUR fingers, it's the fingers of everyone else too. I've seen guys take armed planes to the common areas where spectators are allowed. It's really not rocket science, you should consider any armed electric the same as a RUNNING GLOW ENGINE...

    Jack

  17. #142

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    Great post Jack ,again all it takes is for you to mount one of these on the outside of your plane ,bend at the knees a very little and pull the plug out. lmao I bought a couple of these then started to make my own. joe http://www.atsrcplanes.com/arming_switches.htm

  18. #143

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    I don’t see the problem if the motor can be disabled with the batteries in place. When I started with electrics this was expected. Either a switch that interrupted the throttle lead to the speed control and/or a removable link from the battery to the speed control. Some of the high performance brushed motors could easily do as much damage as the brushless we have today. I seem to remember this was even part of the electric safety code. If you were into electrics then a fair amount of knowledge was required for even simple models. You might have to solder up your own packs to suit the requirements and space inside the plane. I remember soldering in the removable links and the switches on the speed control lead.

    Today when you buy it plug and play very few come with an on/off switch or arming link because the manufactures have the esc designed so it will not arm unless the throttle is at its lowest point. This is a good idea but is it enough as once armed bumping the throttle lever can result in instant wide open throttle.

    It would appear the answer is simple. If you cannot isolate the motor while the batteries are plugged in then yes I can see making the pilot plug the batteries in someplace other than the pits. If however a pilot can demonstrate that he can mechanically isolate the motor so it cannot start when the batteries are connected I can see no issue with him installing the batteries in the pits and bringing the aircraft back to the pits for charging or battery replacement. Someone who goes to the expense and effort to incorporate this into his airframe will be using it.

    I use at least one mechanical and one electronic method on every electric I own except my indoor. If my ESC has an on board BEC a simple switch between the BEC lead and receiver will not allow the ESC to arm when off. A receiver switch works and if you take the charge lead and replace the male end with a female you will be able to plug a spare receiver battery in and power the receiver for testing the controls and the ESC will still be isolated because the switch is off.

    With a stand alone BEC I use two switches. The stand alone BEC has the receiver switch between it and the receiver and a small single pole single throw switch on the signal wire between the receiver and ESC. I can power up the receiver to check all functions but without the signal the ESC will not arm.

    On top of all that my radio has a throttle disable. Once turned on you can move the throttle lever all over but it will not start the motor. An added feature is it cannot be engaged unless the throttle is in its lowest point.

    My electrics are every bit as safe as any of my internal combustion models. If you can demonstrate that you can control that motor by isolating it from its power source when the batteries are installed in the airframe this should become a non issue.

    Dennis

  19. #144
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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    It's not just YOUR fingers, it's the fingers of everyone else too. I've seen guys take armed planes to the common areas where spectators are allowed. It's really not rocket science, you should consider any armed electric the same as a RUNNING GLOW ENGINE...
    Absolutely agreed. An electic motor can begin spinning.. and cutting. But, I take armed planes to the pits every time I fly. I arm them in my garage. I arm them on my car. I arm them in my house and then chuck the plane on the golf course behind my house. I've got a quad copter I fly in my house. I just don't start the cuty, spiny things with my fingers in the way and I don't put my finger in their path when they have the POTENTIAL to start their spiny/cuty action. Those bits bite. Glow or electric. I have my personal club rule - Don't stick your finger in the prop.....

    Many years ago I took up motorcycle riding (1986- A Kawi Nija 600). When I bought my first bike the woman that owned the store handed me my keys and said thank you for your purchase. She then whispered in my ear, "If you make it 6 months you'll be doing well" and walked away. Six months latter it was as if Jesus Christ himself had spoken to me. I'd almost died 100 times. Through luck, reflexes, karma, and intuition I learned to see traffic problems before they became an epitaph. As time passed, the moments of sheer terror became further apart. Maybe propellers are like motorcycles.

    Even more years ago (1973ish) I was in my bedroom dumping WD-40 into my un-mounted Rossi .15 while I was holding it in preparation for storage. I was flipping the Kelly glass prop to distribute the oil. MUCH to my surprise the engine STARTED and RAN for some time on the oil and the oil can propellants. Remember, this is a CL/FF engine with no carburetor and a performance engine at that. It was HOWOLING! Once again I live to tell the story with 10 (20) digits. It's not just about electrics. It's 'bout "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger".

    Another one of my Fathers reminders: "God gave you about 27,000 days on earth but today might be your last". He left me to my own conclusion about the implication of this fact but one thing seems clear to me - No amount of legislation can guaranty you tomorrow... Again - Nothing is fool proof because fools are ingenious.

    I was lucky in that I started this hobby before ARF's and at a time when most of us began with a Cox .049. I stuck my finger in the running prop an embarrassing number of times and I still remember the sting of fuel in an open cut. Now we have FNGs that begin with really big planes and engines. I don't know how they will live through it.... I doubt club rules are the solution...
    "Well - Nothing bad can happen now."

  20. #145

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    Total over-reaction to what was said IMO, arm it at the flight line, how hard is that to do really?! All this "I lived through much worse and rules are for wimps and crap happens" talk is just an excuse to be lazy or stubborn. Remove canopy and arm, insert arming plug, whatever, it takes 30 seconds at most. Is this what we've become, a nation of whining babies that make even the most trivial, minor point to try and enforce safety into a federal issue?! I honestly hope you never hurt yourself or anyone else but stop for a second and imagine if you did, and it was all because you were too stupid, proud, egotistical, lazy, stubborn or whatever other excuse you make, would you feel proud because you never gave in to taking a mere 30 seconds to be safe or like a total stubborn jack*****?

    Jack

  21. #146

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    In my meagerly opinion safety cannot be enforced and must be taught. The same clown that sticks his hands into moving lawnmower blades or a spinning chainsaw chain is bound to hurt himself in some way sooner or later unless he is taught and heeds his teaching. He/she is simply ignorant and needs to be educated about the dangers of moving objects.

    Then there are those of us that get distracted and hurt which has happened to me a few times in my life. I was close to death on a few occasions and for the most part if I would have been more observant I may have been able to avoid my situations. Things just seem to happen sometimes.

    I find that we have to consider when a rule infringes on others in a way that is not sensible or is based on non-viable data? As an example, is there enough data collected and verified to prove that electrics need to go the the flightline to be armed? That would be the first question to answer before considering any rules. Re-acting to a single event is not the best way to start rule making.

    BTW, here are some interesting thoughts - may be a dichotomy of sorts. I don't agree or disagree just making some statements:

    1. Joe says obey rules at the clubs and basically shut your lips. (if rules are present for electrics obey rules)
    2. Joe says I will keep my guns and if rules change, I won't obey them - my guns will have to be pulled from my cold dead hands? (hypothetically of course)

    If rules change on guns do we obey? If rules change on RC do we obey? Is the standard of obedience the same or are we dealing with things that you cannot reasonably compare?



  22. #147
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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.



    Electrics are the future, a lot of people are coming to the dark side.



    At the beginning it was only park flyers, today we can find electrics of every size.



    Common sense is propellers hurt, what is powering the prop? It doesn't matter, maybe gas, glow or electrons they hurt. So precautions are UNIVERSAL. To propose a rule for electrics only is to make a law for women only, or for whites only.



    If your club starts glow and gas at the flight line, electrics too. If you don't have those cute starter tables that restrain planes then tie them with a rope or a stuck in the ground restrain.



    I take my 5 yrs old to the field with me and gave him only two rules, Don't go to the flight line, always be behind the plane.



    To compare gun laws with rules at the field is to compare apples to oranges, you cant.



    To compare laws in the USA with laws in the UK is to compare apples to oranges.......



    Keep your wings level
    Club Saito Member #693

  23. #148

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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    The analogy with guns goes this far ... someone is telling you what property you may possess and under what conditions you might enjoy that property.

    Not nice, is it?




    Similarly, your planes are your private property ... though if you fly on "someone else's" land, then they clearly have the authority to impose caveats upon your behaviour. You can voluntarily contract with the land-owner; to accept or reject his terms.


    AFAICS, no-one has said that a given club may not create rules for its members; after all, membership is voluntary.



    There was a time when it was almost impossible to fly models, unless you belonged to a club, because you needed the facility of that flying field. Clubs then were sprinkled with authoritarian types who found a niche in which to flourish and exert some control over others. Clubs are still like that. Ridden with power struggles.

    Buuuut, the difference is that "we" no longer need the clubs. We can fly just about anywhere we choose ... and we do. It's the clubs who need us, evidenced by their (generally) falling membership.


    People like me have given up trying to fight your institutions. Instead, we have gone off and created our own, better communities. We flourish; you perish. That is the future of model flying.

  24. #149

    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    ORIGINAL: Luchnia

    In my meagerly opinion safety cannot be enforced and must be taught. The same clown that sticks his hands into moving lawnmower blades or a spinning chainsaw chain is bound to hurt himself in some way sooner or later unless he is taught and heeds his teaching. He/she is simply ignorant and needs to be educated about the dangers of moving objects.

    [] With all due respect , I strongly disagree with this notion .

    If good ol fashioned common horse sense don't tell a guy to keep his fingers , toes , and other dangly bits outta the prop , , , aint NO amount of haranguing bout safety gonna keep that guy from gettin bit !!!

    Do you REALLY mean to tell me that a nice big red/orange warning sign plastered on every corner of a lawnmower is what's needed to keep folks fingers outta the blades ? And not the god given brains that we ALL posses that KNOW what a 3600 RPM 21" lawnmower blade will do to hands on contact ???

    I somewhere saw a cute little sign that went something to the effect of ;

    " Wanna rid the world of stupid people ? Remove ALL the warning labels and let the problem solve itself "

    [8D] Maybe , just maybe , the idea actually does have merit

  25. #150

    Join Date
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    RE: Electric Planes at our field.

    [quote]ORIGINAL: init4fun

    ORIGINAL: Luchnia

    '' Wanna rid the world of stupid people ? Remove ALL the warning labels and let the problem solve itself ''



    Used to be referred to as the process of natural selection.


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