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  1. #26
    chopper52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flycatch View Post
    When a quad crashes into a civilian aircraft causing death to those onboard a ban will be imposed on these vehicles.
    I agree 100% It will happen sooner than latter and when it does its over for everyone!!!

  2. #27
    rcmiket's Avatar
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9KZ3jgbbmI

    What could possibly go wrong here?

    Mike
    \"while inverted down is up and up is expensive!!!\"

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by DISCUS54 View Post
    It is getting to the point that I would find it surprising that anyone would obey the laws that restrict them. Our government is suppose to enforce law...all law, so by only enforcing laws that are politically beneficial to them they open the door for citizens to do the same...don't they?
    No, because you cannot use on your defense "my friend parked here, in front of this no park sign, and he was no towed". So if you think the door is open, or look open, assume that for you, it is not. Otherwise you might get hurt (hurt=fined)

    Gerry

  4. #29
    I have to admit I haven't been following this very close. From the stand point of a pilot who works at or below 500 feet and who was in RC long before becoming a working pilot I have been aware RC has pretty much always been restricted to 400 feet or below. I feel the UAVs and/or drones is what is causing the problems. Suddenly, with much help and experimentation from the RC world, we have many people trying to cash in on the capabilities of these aircraft. Police, military, firefighters, farmers, news crews and I am sure many others want a piece of the pie that has grown way beyond a fun hobby and it is causing problems with full scale aircraft and creating a safety hazard for both those in the air and on the ground. Think back the to the early days of aviation when it was just a handful of people experimenting and having fun. Once the commercial benefits became apparent the government set up the CAA (now called the FAA) to regulate all aircraft, pilots and airspace. Like it or not, rouges or not, clubs or not, we all fall under that scope and now safety has been called into question more because of commercial enterprises than anything else. As long as it was just a handful of us having fun no one really cared if we hurt ourselves or hit a car or a house but now that the aircraft weigh more, are everywhere and have the capability to go anywhere, public safety has become a real issue and, in typical government fashion, everyone will suffer.

    Jeff

  5. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by DISCUS54 View Post
    It is getting to the point that I would find it surprising that anyone would obey the laws that restrict them. Our government is suppose to enforce law...all law, so by only enforcing laws that are politically beneficial to them they open the door for citizens to do the same...don't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by GerKonig View Post
    No, because you cannot use on your defense "my friend parked here, in front of this no park sign, and he was no towed". So if you think the door is open, or look open, assume that for you, it is not. Otherwise you might get hurt (hurt=fined)

    Gerry

    It is because the "LAW" only goes after those that have money. No money, no profit for the Government, "LAW" not enforced. No money for the Lawyers, so "LAW" not created. We have a huge homeless issue here in St. Pete downtown. Yet, they are allowed to break the "Law" and sleep in the parks, trash our city with disposable trash and beer cans, and other crazy laws that have been passed to make a "Civilized Society". Instead, the police force sets up speed traps in school zones to collect the $600 ticket that goes with the stop. And, yes, I do agree that our children need protected in school zones, but when 25+ get pulled over that morning, the city goes cha-ching!! The older that I become, the more that I come to feel that we are not truly free in this country. I have seen more and more "LAWs" passed due to crazy groups. To give an example, when I turned 18, I was still allowed to drink "High Proof" liquor, in 1978. Now, due to MADD, an 18-20 year old MAN/WOMAN can go off to die for our country in the name of Freedom, yet, before they go off to make this ultimate FREEDOM sacrifice for their family and country, they can't go into any bar in the good ole' USA, and order a shot of anything!! Pathetic!! Then, we lost approximately 6500 service men/women in yet another Middle East conflict, and these young people paid that sacrifice, and yes, a lot were under 21. Plus the other 25,000 plus injured. I feel for them and their families, and thankful that we still have young people that are willing to do that for us. I did try to serve in the AF, and was medically discharged. Our Family has paid, especially my Mother being there for my Younger Militarily Diagnosed schizophrenic Brother . YET!! In 2010, do any of you know off of the top of your head how many GUN deaths are "accepted as normal" in the GREAT Ole ' USA????? 31,000 +- a few!! They aren't all drug related. 11,000 or so, where suicides, the other 20,000 some where homicides. WE have become numb to this number as an accepted loss. I myself would have killed when I was in my thirties, had there been a gun in the house. Thankfully not. Truly wasn't worth it, but anger does push the buttons. And, half of you truly know that feeling....
    I could go on with other things, like what we are allowed or NOT allowed to park in our driveways,boats, campers, work trucks, if our lawn is cut to the proper length, if our house is painted, if we have to pick up dog-*****, yet a cat can spray my front door and truck tires, and no one complains. I could go on, but if you are 50+, I think most of you can and will relate to this observation.
    On the "Fireworks" video......since you posted it, it will also help it go viral, thus the owner will be paid by Utube. I guess the other question to that issue, is: My videos are for my entertainment, but I have them turn on to do advertisement, and get paid a small percentage of a penny by the advertiser for this privilege of theirs to post their advertisement with my video. Is that now a "Commercial Activity" by the FAA? Guess that could be a whole new subject. All of this is IMHO as I grow older.
    Last edited by RCFlyerDan; 07-06-2014 at 05:47 AM.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

    AMA Turbine CD Waiver Holder- BVM F-16, CARF-Viper, Flash, Super Extra 3.2M, 44%Giles, Extra 330, 1/8th scale F-18, flying r/c since I was 11 years old.


  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcmiket View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9KZ3jgbbmI

    What could possibly go wrong here?

    Mike
    Can't deny the footage isn't amazing, but talk about risky. My favorite comments from the gallery so far:

    "The
    #FAA recently banned #FPV model flying in USA airspace, allowing only line of sight control of remotely piloted aircraft by civilians. This video is the best practical case that that decision was a mistake. It's a work of art! Beautiful to watch."
    Really?

    and

    It probably was line of sight..
    Sure, it's up a couple hundred feet at night, in a sea of exploding fireworkds, very easy to follow.

    Here's another thought I just had watching the video. Whats going to happen to the guy who is not a pro, just in it for fun, who starts posting videos on youtube etc and makes money from the clicks on the video. I would guess that would be a commercial operation at that point.

  7. #32
    HoundDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
    Can't deny the footage isn't amazing, but talk about risky. My favorite comments from the gallery so far:

    "The
    #FAA recently banned #FPV model flying in USA airspace, allowing only line of sight control of remotely piloted aircraft by civilians. This video is the best practical case that that decision was a mistake. It's a work of art! Beautiful to watch."
    Really?

    and

    It probably was line of sight..
    Sure, it's up a couple hundred feet at night, in a sea of exploding fire workds, very easy to follow.

    Here's another thought I just had watching the video. Whats going to happen to the guy who is not a pro, just in it for fun, who starts posting videos on youtube etc and makes money from the clicks on the video. I would guess that would be a commercial operation at that point.
    Realistically this footage is spectacular and less dangerous than one might think.
    1.) No full scale planes in the area.
    2.) Out over a lake or body of water where there are no crowds or spectators.
    3.) Much easier to keep track of the Quad at night by keeping in or near the fire works as a reference.
    4.) I would guess (Hope) he also had GPS return to home capability.

    FPV can be done safely and it's up to us to prove to the FAA that it can be done safely. If we allow one form
    of R/C to be outlawed soon other types of R/C i.e. Sail planes IMAC Jets will become a target for the FAA.
    Try keeping a Sail Plane or a big IMAC model or a Jet for that matter under 400' AGL. JMHO.
    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  8. #33
    Live Wire's Avatar
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    You think the FAA is going to back off of FPV when one of their own Drones polkes a 30 mil. hole in one of there own ships. This is a long way from being a hobby any more. Just set back and take a look at what is taking place in the AMA and Clubs all over the world. More Outlaws and less members.
    Larry K
    Sig Brotherhood # 1 Sig Kadet Brotherhood # 4 WACO Brotherhood #34 Cub Brotherhood 14

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Live Wire View Post
    You think the FAA is going to back off of FPV when one of their own Drones polkes a 30 mil. hole in one of there own ships. This is a long way from being a hobby any more. Just set back and take a look at what is taking place in the AMA and Clubs all over the world. More Outlaws and less members.
    That is a wide ranging statement "all over the world" non-less...

    Gerry

  10. #35
    Bob Pastorello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoundDog View Post
    Realistically this footage is spectacular and less dangerous than one might think.
    1.) No full scale planes in the area.
    Don't know that from the video; THAT is the risk!
    2.) Out over a lake or body of water where there are no crowds or spectators.
    Don't know that from the video; THAT is the risk!
    3.) Much easier to keep track of the Quad at night by keeping in or near the fire works as a reference.
    Normal vision would be severely impacted by the intensity of those colors; I wouldn't give two cents for ANY form of depth perception remaining, betting it is near ZERO
    4.) I would guess (Hope) he also had GPS return to home capability.
    And THAT is the Million Dollar issue....these current generation HOBBY grade equipment do NOT have Mil Spec designs, FAA Certification approvals and don't offer transponder or redundant automatic operations. They may have "return to home", but that means little if the primary (and only) on board navigation toy circuit gives up the ghost.

    FPV can be done safely and it's up to us to prove to the FAA that it can be done safely. If we allow one form
    of R/C to be outlawed soon other types of R/C i.e. Sail planes IMAC Jets will become a target for the FAA.
    Try keeping a Sail Plane or a big IMAC model or a Jet for that matter under 400' AGL. JMHO.
    I still maintain that until FPV "matures", and the technology gets some stricter performance specification/criterion established, the FAA is *RIGHT* to state that it has to be line of sight, direct vision. I want to have a different view, but the stuff growing on You Tube daily simply furthers the argument in FAVOR of tighter regulation and stricter performance requirements.

    The AMA made a huge strategic and tactical error endorsing, supporting, and promoting an immature technology of such potentially great harm and misuse by untrained and uninformed buyers of gadgets for their gratification and "see what I did" mentality.

    (My blue comments in the quoted message of HoundDog are added....and not directed at him personally. It was easier to use his post to illustrate some points I was worried about after first viewing that video. I'm not taking shots at anyone - just stating my opinion/perspective.)
    Last edited by Bob Pastorello; 07-05-2014 at 06:23 PM. Reason: clarification of comments
    "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

  11. #36
    rcmiket's Avatar
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    The only reason I posted the link to that video is drive home the point that regardless how safe we "law abiding" operators are there's a HUGE rouge element out there that will eventually screw this up for all of us. Every video like that one posted will attract more of those who will want to do the same or worst. Sorry guys the bottles been opened and the genii is going to be pure hell to put back in.

    Mike
    \"while inverted down is up and up is expensive!!!\"

  12. #37
    Bob Pastorello's Avatar
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    +100, Mike.
    Sadly, I agree, and You Tube is all the evidence we need.
    "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

  13. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoundDog View Post
    Realistically this footage is spectacular and less dangerous than one might think.
    1.) No full scale planes in the area.
    2.) Out over a lake or body of water where there are no crowds or spectators.
    3.) Much easier to keep track of the Quad at night by keeping in or near the fire works as a reference.
    4.) I would guess (Hope) he also had GPS return to home capability.

    FPV can be done safely and it's up to us to prove to the FAA that it can be done safely. If we allow one form
    of R/C to be outlawed soon other types of R/C i.e. Sail planes IMAC Jets will become a target for the FAA.
    Try keeping a Sail Plane or a big IMAC model or a Jet for that matter under 400' AGL. JMHO.
    What is "less dangerous"? Shoulda been "no danger" by not flying.

    Bob has already responded and pretty much said what I would have. There were actually spectators, in fact they are some of the first things you see in the video (off on the left hand side of the screen). He either hand launched or launched right next to them. Regardless, it just wasn't a smart thing to do. For every one of these videos you can find 5 where people show the things flying off uncontrolled. Isn't that one of the biggest complaints about that vendor? Sorry, I just think it's not worth the possible things that can go wrong once members of the public are involved.

    I'm not diminishing the quality of the vid, it's visually stunning.

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by w0mbat View Post
    The vast majority of FPV operators aren't members of a club and have no intention of spending money to join the AMA or any RC club.
    Do you have any data to back up this statement? Has a study been conducted? How many of the thousands of FPV flyers do you personally know? Are you personally involved in the FPV community? Please give us your max distance from home and max flight distance so we have an idea of your FPV experience.

    I personally know about 20 FPV flyers and they are all members of AMA. They (we) don't often fly FPV at our regular AMA r/c fields for a variety of reasons.

    -Ed B.
    Last edited by Flyfast1; 07-06-2014 at 10:49 AM.
    Spitfire Brotherhood #185

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by beepee View Post
    My opinion: No. I believe ...

    1. AMA has taken the right position with regard to LOS and FPV flight.
    2. I am going to guess that most FPV flyers that ignore the AMA limits aren't AMA members.
    3. The FAA takes the position that FPV flyers cannot meet their basic rule of "See and Avoid." They are right when flown beyond the AMA guidelines.
    4. Commercial media is not the problem. Who needs it, when YouTube is available.

    Bedford
    I'm going to add one more after the highlighted one:
    2a. Most FPV flyers don't give a damn about rules and safety because it interferes with THEIR FUN.
    Last edited by rgburrill; 07-06-2014 at 08:44 AM.

  16. #41

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    Just a question: I've been flying radio control planes and helis for 44 years, and also have a few r/c boats, cars and now quads .... I've flown with several clubs, in several open fields, at a couple of turf farms, one of which had private planes flying from there .... AND NEVER HAVE I SEEN SOMEONE FROM THE FAA.... NEVER.... I'm a 'rules guy', but since I fly safely, I just don't worry about it. My question is, have YOU ever had an FAA guy come to your field for any reason except to watch you fly? Please spare me any scoldings; I'm too old for that. Please just answer the question.

  17. #42
    HoundDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony [I
    My question is, have YOU ever had an FAA guy come to your field for any reason except to watch you fly?[/I] Please spare me any scoldings; I'm too old for that. Please just answer the question.
    Yes we have had the FAA at our field a couple (FEW) times in the past 38 years I've been flying Full Scale and RC there. RC has been there a lot longer than that. The NTSB and the FAA in fact, but it always been for a Full Scale or Ultra lite indecent or accident.
    Check it out on the Federal Register 0WI8 Zero, double U, eye, eight. We share a private restricted strip with about 8 Full Scale and a few Ultra lites.


    AGAIN I ask have U sent your letter to the FAA yet? if Not don't blame anyone but your self when the finally act.

    How to Respond to the FAA.
    All AMA members, family and friends need to take action now to let the FAA know that this rule significantly impacts the entire aeromodeling community and that this community is resolute and committed to protecting the hobby.
    There are four methods to submit a comment. Emailing your comment is the fastest and most convenient method. All comments must include the docket number FAA-2014-0396. Tips for submitting your comments.
    Email: Go to http://www.regulations.gov. Follow the online instructions for sending your comments electronically.
    Mail: Send Comments to Docket Operations, M-30; US Department of Transportation, 1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE., West Building Ground Floor, Room W12-140, West Building Ground Floor, Washington, DC 20590-0001.
    Hand Delivery: Take comments to Docket Operations in Room W12-140 of the West Building Ground Floor at 1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE., Washington, DC, between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m., Monday through Friday, except Federal holidays.
    Fax: (202) 493-2251.
    DEADLINE TO COMMENT: On or before July 25, 2014
    Last edited by HoundDog; 07-06-2014 at 11:59 AM.
    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  18. #43

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    It is totally predictable that the AMA got blindsided by the FAA. One organization is for the benefit of a specific group while the other is tasked with everyone's interest. Leave it to the FAA to flex their muscles "for everyones benefit including the children" and disregard the AMA's input....after all, the AMA has more experience than any other organization when it comes to remote control aircraft and the FAA doesnt want to look inferior to anyone. This will eventually get sorted out, but yet another example of the egotistical mindset that exists in our agencies because solving problems come second to power and politics...and dam the amount of taxpayer money that it all costs.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Iannucelli View Post
    My question is, have YOU ever had an FAA guy come to your field for any reason except to watch you fly? .
    Actually, Tony, Yes! At the SPARKS field here in St. Pete, we actually had a currently employed FAA Man as a member of the Club. Back before SPARKS became basically a Foamie/Heli field and when 400 feet wasn't such a hot spot, and the FAA Control Tower Manager and Airport Manager, as per AMA, were notified of r/c aircraft possibly operating over the 400 feet. He used to occasionally spot for me and other times just watch me fly my 44% Giles, and Flash jet well over the 400 feet. All he ever said to me was; "Nice flight". Never ever scolded me, never ever said that I shouldn't be flying that high, never said he was going to report me to the FAA, or any other governing committee, etc. Also, remember that we live in high density of Gov't and Military employees. In shorts and T's, ever pilot/spectator looks to be the same happy modeler.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

    AMA Turbine CD Waiver Holder- BVM F-16, CARF-Viper, Flash, Super Extra 3.2M, 44%Giles, Extra 330, 1/8th scale F-18, flying r/c since I was 11 years old.


  20. #45

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    Hey Dan! You guys at SPARKS are great. I still have my "Best in Scale" plaque and t-shirt from a few years ago! Keep it under 400 Bud, and buy that FAA guy a soda. ---Tony

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Iannucelli View Post
    Hey Dan! You guys at SPARKS are great. I still have my "Best in Scale" plaque and t-shirt from a few years ago! Keep it under 400 Bud, and buy that FAA guy a soda. ---Tony
    Thanks Tony! I was CD for those War Bird Events. I haven't flown there now for a few years.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

    AMA Turbine CD Waiver Holder- BVM F-16, CARF-Viper, Flash, Super Extra 3.2M, 44%Giles, Extra 330, 1/8th scale F-18, flying r/c since I was 11 years old.


  22. #47
    rcmiket's Avatar
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=0ZPYJjqwgU0

    Seems like there's a bit more to the original video.

    Mike
    \"while inverted down is up and up is expensive!!!\"

  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoundDog View Post
    Realistically this footage is spectacular and less dangerous than one might think.
    1.) No full scale planes in the area.
    2.) Out over a lake or body of water where there are no crowds or spectators.
    3.) Much easier to keep track of the Quad at night by keeping in or near the fire works as a reference.
    4.) I would guess (Hope) he also had GPS return to home capability.

    FPV can be done safely and it's up to us to prove to the FAA that it can be done safely. If we allow one form
    of R/C to be outlawed soon other types of R/C i.e. Sail planes IMAC Jets will become a target for the FAA.
    Try keeping a Sail Plane or a big IMAC model or a Jet for that matter under 400' AGL. JMHO.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=0ZPYJjqwgU0

    Sure looked like he took off right next to about 10 people, then flew right out over the heads of some boaters. It's going to be impossible to show that FPV can be done safely as long as there are machines, humans, and innocent people that can be hurt.

    Another perspective on this, a great article.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregorym...ugh-fireworks/

    Potential $40k fine from the Coast Guard. Yikes.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Tampaflyer View Post
    HOLD ON.. read this first, think about it, then comment.

    Now that the FAA is starting a crack down on the Line-Of-Site controls of model aircraft, Did the lack of support from AMA clubs help bring this on?

    Think about it, When new people and especially new technology came out to most rc club fields, they were meet with ridicule. Most helicopter pilots still receive this attitude. much less the quad copters and FPV guys. Even 3D planes can catch attitude from fixed wing pilots.

    Now the heli and Multicopter pilots soon figured out that they didn't need the flying field to fly. BUT they did need the guidance of others that their type of flying could be looked upon by the general public as something else besides a hobby.

    Some Clubs drove these new members away. losing both AMA members and club members. Now even some hobby shops will tell people they don't need to seek out those clubs or experienced flyers. And then the technology improves to keep sales going so the new aircraft need even less experience to operate.

    Don't fool yourself.. the FAA will put rules on us all.. just because you think this is aimed at a certain category.. it will come down on us all.

    can you say.. parkflyers, mufflers, turbines, size limits, and more.. they always do it one step at a time.

    I don't think for one minute the clubs brought on the rise in numbers of folks flying FPV far from their LOS for one reason . Namely that once freed from the restriction of needing to actually see the model to control it , these beyond LOS FPV flyers had no need of club fields with their dues and responsibilities and just took to flying whenever and wherever the mood struck them . No big happy kiss from any club was gonna keep these people from flying beyond LOS cause that's the whole appeal it would appear from most of these videos , to fly to places they would never see at a LOS club field .

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcmiket View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=0ZPYJjqwgU0

    Seems like there's a bit more to the original video.

    Mike
    Flying over the crowd like that is crazy. That would be illegal in Australia, no question about it.
    My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my planes for what I told her they cost.


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