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  1. #1

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    Did The Club members bring this FAA stuff on themselves?

    HOLD ON.. read this first, think about it, then comment.

    Now that the FAA is starting a crack down on the Line-Of-Site controls of model aircraft, Did the lack of support from AMA clubs help bring this on?

    Think about it, When new people and especially new technology came out to most rc club fields, they were meet with ridicule. Most helicopter pilots still receive this attitude. much less the quad copters and FPV guys. Even 3D planes can catch attitude from fixed wing pilots.

    Now the heli and Multicopter pilots soon figured out that they didn't need the flying field to fly. BUT they did need the guidance of others that their type of flying could be looked upon by the general public as something else besides a hobby.

    Some Clubs drove these new members away. losing both AMA members and club members. Now even some hobby shops will tell people they don't need to seek out those clubs or experienced flyers. And then the technology improves to keep sales going so the new aircraft need even less experience to operate.

    Don't fool yourself.. the FAA will put rules on us all.. just because you think this is aimed at a certain category.. it will come down on us all.

    can you say.. parkflyers, mufflers, turbines, size limits, and more.. they always do it one step at a time.
    Last edited by Tampaflyer; 06-26-2014 at 11:45 AM.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tampaflyer View Post
    HOLD ON.. read this first, think about it, then comment.

    Now that the FAA is starting a crack down on the Line-Of-Site controls of model aircraft, Did the lack of support from AMA clubs help bring this on?

    Think about it, When new people and especially new technology cam out to most rc club fields, they were meet with ridicule. Most helicopter pilots still receive this attitude. much less the quad copters and FPV guys. Even 3D planes can catch attitude from fixed wing pilots.

    Now the heli and Multicopter pilots soon figured out that they didn't need the flying field to fly. BUT they did need the guidance of others that their type of flying could be looked upon by the general public as something else besides a hobby.

    Some Clubs drove these new members away. losing both AMA members and club members. Now even some hobby shops will tell people they don't need to seek out those clubs or experienced flyers. And then the technology improves to keep sales going so the new aircraft need even less experience to operate.

    Don't fool yourself.. the FAA will put rules on us all.. just because you think this is aimed at a certain category.. it will come down on us all.

    can you say.. parkflyers, mufflers, turbines, size limits, and more.. they always do it one step at a time.
    I think you could be right about the FAA imposing more limits one step at a time.
    Ira d

  3. #3

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    just another step of the out of control government that wont follow the law
    I once had a drinking problem.....I divorced it, now shes someone else\'\'s problem
    waco brotherhood # 140

  4. #4

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    Any fool can walk into a shop, buy a 20+cc baja buggy and run it up and down a main road or footpath so why isn't the Dep. of transport getting all hot and sweaty??

    I just hope the novelty (and assocated media attention) just goes away because by putting it on TV only encourages more idiots.

    Seriously, when do stories like "Man does something stupid with toy" become newsworthy??

  5. #5

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    My opinion: No. I believe ...

    1. AMA has taken the right position with regard to LOS and FPV flight.
    2. I am going to guess that most FPV flyers that ignore the AMA limits aren't AMA members.
    3. The FAA takes the position that FPV flyers cannot meet their basic rule of "See and Avoid." They are right when flown beyond the AMA guidelines.
    4. Commercial media is not the problem. Who needs it, when YouTube is available.

    Bedford

  6. #6

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    What drove the FAA ?
    Adverse Publicity
    Bureaucratic goals - (Control, Control, Control)

    "Your toy balloon floated within 5 miles of an airport. You failed to get permission from the airport operator."
    "Here is your citation". The administrative fine is $5,000.00 You may pay by certified check.

  7. #7

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    Clubs, by their nature, have rules, safety, courtesy, etc. For some reason helicopter, fpv and quad flyers seem to be composed of people who don't like rules. Since none of those types of aircraft really need a fixed location to operate from why would they need a club? It's much easier to go to the local open space and fly there. So don't go blaming clubs for the problems caused by them. It is just like CB radios back in the early 70's. It isn't the people who are using them correctly that caused the problem, it's the free spirits who won't follow the regs that will get them banned eventually. Enjoy them while you can.
    Larry

  8. #8
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    It's really not the "club" fliers that are causing problems. And the type of flying that is attracting the video and FPV pilot is not the limited area racetrack patterns and close-in aerobatics that is what club flying is all about. Who wants to see the same video of a bunch of frumpy guys standing at the edge of a field looking up? It is the cross-country, wide ranging and over structures and populated area flying that brought the hairy eyeball of the FAA on us. I don't think we drove anyone away. I think it is as much we have boring hangouts for the video crowd.

    Yes, when you get 40 or 60 guys paying to maintain a field waiting for their chance to fly and the amateur hour crowd appears after stopping at the hobby shop having just bought a plane we can sometimes seem cold. But then they often don't want to hear it when told "if you join our student pilot-training program we will help you learn." But I want to fly NOW! No one wants to be the crash barricade; their body or their model at the pits. But the ones that do come for help we usually accommodate.

    I belong to two clubs - but most of my flying is on ponds or lakes (floatplane) and over fields (sailplane), so I am every bit as guilty of whatever FPV pilots are guilty of. Fixed club airfields, to paraphrase General Patton, are a monument to the stupidity of man. We tend to think of them as our safe little fortresses. And that is usually true. Well now we have the huns at the gates. Now we will see if our combined voice as the AMA will be heard.
    Charlie P. (NY) "Gravity is weak but persistant".

    AMA 747089/IMAA 30723

  9. #9
    w0mbat's Avatar
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    The vast majority of FPV operators aren't members of a club and have no intention of spending money to join the AMA or any RC club.

    They would rather spend the money on their gear than give it to the AMA or a club because they don't know enough about the hobby to see the value in either. Unfortunately, most clubs don't have the money to educate the general public and the AMA is surely not going to do it!

  10. #10
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    From my personal ( and our clubs) involvement with the LHS is 99% of all the quads and related equipment go to people who have no intention of abiding by (and could care less) any regulations that are in effect, They have no intention of joining any club or the AMA. What we have here is a potentially dangerous product that's available to anyone ( just hit the buy button) . How to fix this is anyone's guess. Unfortunately this problem is going to get worst before it gets better. We try and feed them info on the local clubs and responsible operation but they could care less. The bottom line here is that sooner or later this will effect our hobby as a whole and I'm afraid it won't be for the better.
    How can this be the clubs fault?

    Happy 4th
    Mike
    Last edited by rcmiket; 07-04-2014 at 05:24 AM.
    \"while inverted down is up and up is expensive!!!\"

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tampaflyer View Post
    HOLD ON.. read this first, think about it, then comment.

    Now that the FAA is starting a crack down on the Line-Of-Site controls of model aircraft, Did the lack of support from AMA clubs help bring this on?

    Think about it, When new people and especially new technology came out to most rc club fields, they were meet with ridicule. Most helicopter pilots still receive this attitude. much less the quad copters and FPV guys. Even 3D planes can catch attitude from fixed wing pilots.

    Now the heli and Multicopter pilots soon figured out that they didn't need the flying field to fly. BUT they did need the guidance of others that their type of flying could be looked upon by the general public as something else besides a hobby.

    Some Clubs drove these new members away. losing both AMA members and club members. Now even some hobby shops will tell people they don't need to seek out those clubs or experienced flyers. And then the technology improves to keep sales going so the new aircraft need even less experience to operate.

    Don't fool yourself.. the FAA will put rules on us all.. just because you think this is aimed at a certain category.. it will come down on us all.

    can you say.. parkflyers, mufflers, turbines, size limits, and more.. they always do it one step at a time.
    I think you've made some astronomical assumptions about cause and effect. This especially:

    "When new people and especially new technology came out to most rc club fields, they were meet with ridicule."

    Unless you've visited most clubs, or spoken with people in most club, it's unclear how you arrived at that conclusion.

    Nothing earth shattering or game changing has happened to the majority of people in this hobby, and it's not really going to either. We can and should however let our collective voices be heard individually, and collectively through the AMA in terms of federal oversight.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcmiket View Post
    From my personal ( and our clubs) involvement with the LHS is 99% of all the quads and related equipment go to people who have no intention of abiding by (and could care less) any regulations that are in effect, They have no intention of joining any club or the AMA. What we have here is a potentially dangerous product that's available to anyone ( just hit the buy button) . How to fix this is anyone's guess. Unfortunately this problem is going to get worst before it gets better. We try and feed them info on the local clubs and responsible operation but they could care less. The bottom line here is that sooner or later this will effect our hobby as a whole and I'm afraid it won't be for the better.
    How can this be the clubs fault?

    Happy 4th
    Mike
    http://www.modelaircraft.org/insider/10_01/leader.htm
    www.abchobbyshop.com- information

  13. #13
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    Thanks for the link. It does not pertain to this at all. Our club does not have a membership problem nor a leadership problem. We have had ONE individual show up with a quad who we assisted and then encouraged to check out the AMA we also informed him about the club and what we do. Once he saw added cost he bolted never to be seen again. I'm sure he's just flying wherever he can. What we are dealing with here is a group of people that could care less about rules or regulations, I find it hard to believe that others don't see this.

    Mike
    \"while inverted down is up and up is expensive!!!\"

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcmiket View Post
    Thanks for the link. It does not pertain to this at all. Our club does not have a membership problem nor a leadership problem. We have had ONE individual show up with a quad who we assisted and then encouraged to check out the AMA we also informed him about the club and what we do. Once he saw added cost he bolted never to be seen again. I'm sure he's just flying wherever he can. What we are dealing with here is a group of people that could care less about rules or regulations, I find it hard to believe that others don't see this.

    Mike
    Membership drive column:

    "Yet the grass roots level, where the newbie meets the member, it didn’t happen very well; seemingly no interest in the growth of the membership by the average modeler or club."

    Tampaflyer wrote:

    "Some Clubs drove these new members away. losing both AMA members and club members. Now even some hobby shops will tell people they don't need to seek out those clubs or experienced flyers. And then the technology improves to keep sales going so the new aircraft need even less experience to operate."
    Last edited by fliers1; 07-04-2014 at 06:41 AM.
    www.abchobbyshop.com- information

  15. #15
    rcmiket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fliers1 View Post
    Membership drive column:

    "Yet the grass roots level, where the newbie meets the member, it didn’t happen very well; seemingly no interest in the growth of the membership by the average modeler or club."

    Tampaflyer wrote:

    "Some Clubs drove these new members away. losing both AMA members and club members. Now even some hobby shops will tell people they don't need to seek out those clubs or experienced flyers. And then the technology improves to keep sales going so the new aircraft need even less experience to operate."
    Sure, there will be first timers that run into the "cranky old guys" at the field and it doesn't reflect well on the club but is that the norm? I still believe that the majority of sales go the people who will never join a club or the AMA not to mention abide by any regulations. There's enough utube videos out there to back that statement up.
    If this wasn't such a huge problem than there would be no fuss about it would there?

    Mike
    \"while inverted down is up and up is expensive!!!\"

  16. #16

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    My take away on this subject:

    If in fact the regulations are targeting a "line of site" rule which applies to FPV operations and also dont forget it is also about commercial aerobatic operations as well... So that said, reading some of the earlier comments. Only the good guys will obey the "rule", if the majority of people as previously stated are buying the technology to fly where they want to without a club, well those people are more than likely not aware of the FAA's proposed regulation. As such they are ignorant of the law. Does not matter that they are, they will still be breaking the law and it will give us all a black eye.


    So to answer the OP's original question. I am sure there are some elitist members with type "A" Personalities or some members who hide behind club leadership that get "new" technology thrown out at "their" field. So the guy who just ponied up for an FPV/Quad setup gets shunned at the "club" field. Where is the guy going to go? So the path of least resistance is an open field somewhere. Then the guy gets pretty good at flying it. Well the natural tendacy is to stretch one's capabilities and there are numerous Youtube videos to proove this. So the club is somewhat responsibile. However I really and honestly believe it goes deeper than that. You see it really boils down to the "point of sale". The hobby dealer either "brick and mortar or Online" should want to and in my opinion give details on how to join the AMA and give names and contact info for the local flying clubs in the area. Also the clubs need to quit being so standoffish to new members and new technology. Part of the problem with this mindset is it is all about paying dues. Not money but time. i.e the mind set that some young kid/adult should not have better stuff than i do or since the young kid/adult flies better than the older members they are looked down on has got to stop. Older membership needs to take on a mentoring role. Like it used to be done back in the day.

    I could so go on and on, but I think you get what I am trying to say. I wish us all well. We are going to have to start reaching out to these guys and invite them to the clubs when they are seen in public. Or I fear that it will just be a black eye to the "law" abiding modeler.

    My 2 pennies worth

    Glenn
    When all else fails pull the right stick down!

  17. #17

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    Here is this weeks example of what causes more oversight into our hobby:

    http://www.suasnews.com/2014/07/2994...31a9-303662641

    3600 feet in overcast conditions. Exactly what real pilots need to deal with.

  18. #18
    rcmiket's Avatar
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    Thinking that these people are ignorant of the regulations and law is a joke, They watch the news, they know there's controversy (unless they live under a rock) and want to participate. Have any of you seen the videos where the cops confront these individuals (normally in a city park) and they demand to know ordinances and so on? They want to do and fly wherever they want and they seem to think it's their right to do so. They don't portray our hobby in a very positive light. Like it or not the average person lumps us into the same category.

    Mike
    \"while inverted down is up and up is expensive!!!\"

  19. #19

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    When a quad crashes into a civilian aircraft causing death to those onboard a ban will be imposed on these vehicles.

  20. #20

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    IMHO the AMA took a somewhat liberal approach to FPV and that is what brought the FAA rules. They were promoting non hobby activities with FPV in Model Aviation Magazine. Go back and read the last few months editions.

  21. #21
    Bob Pastorello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by porcia83 View Post
    Here is this weeks example of what causes more oversight into our hobby:

    http://www.suasnews.com/2014/07/2994...31a9-303662641

    3600 feet in overcast conditions. Exactly what real pilots need to deal with.
    Excellent evidence that there is no limit to stupidity, arrogance, and self-gratification at others' costs.
    Ain't no doubt about it - the FAA's Interpretive Rule has muzzled the AMA, who was nearly toothless to begin with on this FPV issue.
    Cannot agree more with every post in this thread about the "rogue" operators/buyers/users of technology with no regard to greater good or obligation to safety in the aviation community.
    "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

  22. #22
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    I don't see one post about writing emailing or any form of communication about the FAA’s interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft established by Congress in the FAA modernization and Reform Act of 2012. It's our only chance to let the FAA know how U feel and if U don't U have no one to blame for the restrictions the FAA puts on all R/C Flying. The FAA is just lke the IRS they are right and U are wrong until u are able to prove otherwise. Don't forget that can/will be very costly.
    Now that said everyone sit down get your self educated so U can patition the FAA and not look the FOOL.
    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  23. #23

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    My club is putting together a letter that we can send to FAA and i'm sure most of the members will cooperate. As far as to what brought this on I think the FAA is concerned about the new
    technology available to modelers. Some may remember the FAA had started to look at models five or six years ago before many of the quad copter videos started to pop up on youtube.

    I know for the last four or five years the FAA has been coming to the AMA convention in Ontario Ca and meeting with the members and AMA staff, although they would not say just what
    they were up to the FAA always led us to believe that we would be ok when the new regulations came out but in the end the AMA was blind sighted by the FAA.
    Ira d

  24. #24

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    It is getting to the point that I would find it surprising that anyone would obey the laws that restrict them. Our government is suppose to enforce law...all law, so by only enforcing laws that are politically beneficial to them they open the door for citizens to do the same...don't they?

  25. #25
    Bob Pastorello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoundDog View Post
    I don't see one post about writing emailing or any form of communication about the FAA’s interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft established by Congress in the FAA modernization and Reform Act of 2012. It's our only chance to let the FAA know how U feel and if U don't U have no one to blame for the restrictions the FAA puts on all R/C Flying. The FAA is just lke the IRS they are right and U are wrong until u are able to prove otherwise. Don't forget that can/will be very costly.
    Now that said everyone sit down get your self educated so U can patition the FAA and not look the FOOL.
    All AMA members received an email with explanation of what was needed; links to the FAA document, and there is a LONG thread in the AMA Discussion forum here on RCU with lots of very good discussion, and details about FAA links, comments, etc.
    "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw


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