Pica & Ikon N'wst laser-cut kits coming back with Kickstarter campaign
07-21-2014, 07:06 AM
#127
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Take a look at the kickstarter campaign of Adrian Page, by going to kickstarter and searching for "airplane". His campaign ended the first week of may, and he obtained $12,000. He still does not have the laser cutter, which is on a ship from China and is supposed to arrive to him in about one week. There is full spectrum laser in Colorado, and epilog laser in Golden Colorado, that have machines in stock. There is also CAM Five in Florida.
This is the key difference between what he is in the process of doing and what you are attempting to do. The fact of the matter is that you don't have that history or reputation and I'm not trying to be negative towards you in saying so. There is no real point in debating here on RCU as the results will bear out in the success or failure of your Kickstarter campaign.
It is a very competitive arena you are getting into. Good luck.
Lars
07-21-2014, 10:56 AM
#128
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And I hear crickets. Still no construction photo's of the jet you built. Still no pictures of anything from you as to your building skills. Nilch nada. But I expect you'll have an excuse for that also.
Glenn
Glenn
07-21-2014, 04:43 PM
#131
I need to step in here for a bit guys. This thread has gotten heated at times and both sides in this discussion have had plenty to say. I don't mind if people get passionate about defending their side of the story, but what I will not abide is name calling or insulting. Let's discuss the issues here without name calling or insulting each other
Ken
Ken
07-21-2014, 04:54 PM
#132
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I am sorry PD-I will not be investing in your business venture-I have read this thread and it appears that you are making the story up as the thread progresses for pure enjoyment for whatever reason I don't know and really don't care.
I wish you well but I am tired of reading this adventure.
I wish you well but I am tired of reading this adventure.
07-22-2014, 03:57 AM
#133
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How about we encourage Mr. Jenson to pursue the design of the Starjet for his next Kickstarter campaign? The static model presented looks like a beautifully made thing. It might appeal to enough people to be worth trying. I think he has learned some valuable lessons from this first attempt. It might well succeed if he were to set up a more modest Kickstarter to raise funds to produce a small prop driven electric or a larger EDF short kit. Mr. Jenson appears to have a great deal of passion for the hobby. I think that's a good thing.
Adrian
Adrian
07-22-2014, 07:54 AM
#134
How about we encourage Mr. Jenson to pursue the design of the Starjet for his next Kickstarter campaign? The static model presented looks like a beautifully made thing. It might appeal to enough people to be worth trying. I think he has learned some valuable lessons from this first attempt. It might well succeed if he were to set up a more modest Kickstarter to raise funds to produce a small prop driven electric or a larger EDF short kit. Mr. Jenson appears to have a great deal of passion for the hobby. I think that's a good thing.
Adrian
Adrian
Yep , that's one of them thar things bout holes , when yer in one deep enough , It's best to stop diggin ! 
But really , and in all seriousness , I and everyone else would like nothing more than to see pilotdude actually end up making a go of this . Pretty much most of our present day suppliers started out just that way as small operations and ALL companies have to start somewhere . It would be really great to see the guy GET the proper permission to use the designs , build a few , and see if the market beats a path to his door . That's the right way , The way every small company starts out , and should have the blessing of all . Our problem here is one of "putting the cart before the horse" in that he needs both the legal permission to use the designs AND the respect of a well earned name for building from these designs , BEFORE asking strangers for money to fund something that likely may not happen for either legal or other market force factors .
I do truly wish the OP the best with step one , securing the permission to use the designs . This step , which of course will need a lawyer to draft the contract to have any validity in any future legal dealings the new company may encounter , will enable him to build a few , sell a few , and let we the buying public decide if any more of em need to be made .
And THEN , we'll talk about money , after the OP has put enough of his OWN "skin in the game" as to prove being fully vested in the idea of becoming a kitmaker VS a get rich quick scheme .
And there you have it , both Adrian and I think that with a few adjustments to the plan that this guy may just BE able to become a successful kitmaker . It's nice to see that the guy seems to be sincere , I mean if he were an internet scammer there have gotta be MUCH easier scams to run than a model airplane startup business , right ? The idea of working the Starjet into something presentable sounds well worth the effort and will need to see itself built and flown to prove the aerodynamics . If the OP were to present a working model prototype this would go a long way in convincing folks to invest . Just please don't loose sight of the fact that this has to be about kitmaking first , and not becoming the next Carl Goldberg overnight . If the models are solid the reputation will build itself .
07-22-2014, 09:42 AM
#135
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Hello all,
Just a bit of an update here, I spoke to the present owner of Ikon N'West today and he says he has no knowledge of having given anyone permission to reproduce his kits and would appreciate it if this stopped immediately.
Just a bit of an update here, I spoke to the present owner of Ikon N'West today and he says he has no knowledge of having given anyone permission to reproduce his kits and would appreciate it if this stopped immediately.
07-22-2014, 04:47 PM
#141
With this bit of info , it's really in the OP's best interest to remove any and all company names he's attempting to link to his efforts ! If he SO wants to be a kitmaker and really feels this IS his "life's calling" he will need to either use his own designs or make a deal IN ADVANCE with the owners of the kits he wants to reissue . This "We're gonna bring back IKON" (or any other established name) nonsense without permission has been my main complaint to the OP here , as well as establishing the legal foundation of a proper company BEFORE asking folks for $$$ Would I like to see the OP do this right ? Heck yea ! Do I have the confidence that he will do so ? ......... I think this is the symbol I'm lookin for
07-23-2014, 04:42 AM
#143
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I'm in agreement with init4fun, if you are going to trumpet some action, you had better already have your ducks in a row and agreements in place before making a public announcement. Couple that with the nonsense in his past and it makes this venture rather dubious as to it's outcome.
07-23-2014, 06:05 AM
#145
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The OP has issues. That is a proven fact. Many people including myself had tried giving a path to credibility. At each turn he had either an answer or excuse. He was asked numerous times to show some kind of build/construction photo's and then he shows a picture of a jet, that he supposedly made.
I have been in the hobby since I was 18. I am now 48 years old. Heck I still have pictures of my first plane that I built. I am currently building a giant scale P-47 and there is a build thread showing my construction. I think most of you if not all of you that have built a kit, have pictures.
Think it is just assinine that this thread has become what it is. How are you going to produce a kit in "days" with no startup costs other than a laser cutter? Sorry it aint going to happen. Has anyone checked on the balsa sites lately to buy balsa in bulk and then the delivery time to get it?
Anyone with a clue would realize that from the start this was all smoke and mirrors. It takes time not only to upload a blueprint to be able to cut a Short kit. But also time in materials, boxing and shipping. There is a saying "If it sounds to good to be true it usually is". Couple that with the OP's history and does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that this was not gonna happen.
As someone stated earlier. To get into the kit making business, it takes start up costs, a business plan and most importantly inventory. Would we all like to see certain models from certain manufacturers come back? You bet. I will also give you another tidbit of info. You can fact check me on this if you choose. Sig quit making the Morrisey Bravo years ago. AMR from Canada has been trying to rekit the airplane now for at leat a year or more. After I posted my Morrisey Bravo build here on RCU, AMR came on and said they were tooling up to remake the kit. As of a few months ago, I e-mailed them after they posted that the airplane would be ready in a couple of weeks. Well as of today it is still not on the market. Why do you ask? I was told that they are waiting on vendors to supply parts so the kits can be finished.
All that said, the OP was going to make an airplane and have to you in "record" time not only as a short kit but per his postings some were going to be "Arf's".
Guys, in short this thread has run it's course.
My 2 cents worth.
Glenn
I have been in the hobby since I was 18. I am now 48 years old. Heck I still have pictures of my first plane that I built. I am currently building a giant scale P-47 and there is a build thread showing my construction. I think most of you if not all of you that have built a kit, have pictures.
Think it is just assinine that this thread has become what it is. How are you going to produce a kit in "days" with no startup costs other than a laser cutter? Sorry it aint going to happen. Has anyone checked on the balsa sites lately to buy balsa in bulk and then the delivery time to get it?
Anyone with a clue would realize that from the start this was all smoke and mirrors. It takes time not only to upload a blueprint to be able to cut a Short kit. But also time in materials, boxing and shipping. There is a saying "If it sounds to good to be true it usually is". Couple that with the OP's history and does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that this was not gonna happen.
As someone stated earlier. To get into the kit making business, it takes start up costs, a business plan and most importantly inventory. Would we all like to see certain models from certain manufacturers come back? You bet. I will also give you another tidbit of info. You can fact check me on this if you choose. Sig quit making the Morrisey Bravo years ago. AMR from Canada has been trying to rekit the airplane now for at leat a year or more. After I posted my Morrisey Bravo build here on RCU, AMR came on and said they were tooling up to remake the kit. As of a few months ago, I e-mailed them after they posted that the airplane would be ready in a couple of weeks. Well as of today it is still not on the market. Why do you ask? I was told that they are waiting on vendors to supply parts so the kits can be finished.
All that said, the OP was going to make an airplane and have to you in "record" time not only as a short kit but per his postings some were going to be "Arf's".
Guys, in short this thread has run it's course.
My 2 cents worth.
Glenn
07-23-2014, 07:18 AM
#146
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Just a bit of an update here, I spoke to the present owner of Ikon N'West today and he says he has no knowledge of having given anyone permission to reproduce his kits and would appreciate it if this stopped immediately
Uh huh
All this venting and naysaying doesn't reflect well on this site or the hobby in general. If the venture isn't successful, so be it. There's so much 'it can't be done' coming from folks who are no more qualified than the OP.
The negative comments add absolutely nothing to the discussion without facts.
07-23-2014, 08:31 AM
#147
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EddieC,
My posting the name would be irrelevant as anyone that knows Ikon kits and it's history knows that Aaron purchased it from Emil when he became too ill to continue producing the kits himself.. I have no need to post that I spoke to Aaron if indeed I did not. I actually speak to him on occasion and he is in the process of reworking the designs as his spare time allows and hopes to return the product line at some point.
My posting the name would be irrelevant as anyone that knows Ikon kits and it's history knows that Aaron purchased it from Emil when he became too ill to continue producing the kits himself.. I have no need to post that I spoke to Aaron if indeed I did not. I actually speak to him on occasion and he is in the process of reworking the designs as his spare time allows and hopes to return the product line at some point.
07-23-2014, 09:33 AM
#148
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EddieC,
My posting the name would be irrelevant as anyone that knows Ikon kits and it's history knows that Aaron purchased it from Emil when he became too ill to continue producing the kits himself.. I have no need to post that I spoke to Aaron if indeed I did not. I actually speak to him on occasion and he is in the process of reworking the designs as his spare time allows and hopes to return the product line at some point.
My posting the name would be irrelevant as anyone that knows Ikon kits and it's history knows that Aaron purchased it from Emil when he became too ill to continue producing the kits himself.. I have no need to post that I spoke to Aaron if indeed I did not. I actually speak to him on occasion and he is in the process of reworking the designs as his spare time allows and hopes to return the product line at some point.
I don't know who Aaron is, I just asked if the new owner was making kits. Seemed to be a reasonable question. Maybe someday the kits will come back and then we will all be able to enjoy them again.
07-23-2014, 10:11 AM
#149
Thread Starter
07-23-2014, 10:34 AM
#150
Thread Starter
Unless you are talking about million dollar 3d machines, most machines I have seen take much longer than 3 hours to make a plug for a 60" wingspan airplane. That doesn't include the hand finish time. If such printers were available inexpensively and were reliable, we would have them. To me, it looks like that technology will be cost effective for hobby use in about 5 years. Since I don't know what kind of printer your library has I can't make that determination. What printer does your library have?
Have you seen the instructions for Pica and Guillows kits? If you copy them and put them with your kits, not only will you have to do more technical support than you can handle, but you will probably have a lawsuit from both Guillows and Great Planes. You would spend more time on the phone giving technical support than you would making kits. We have photo illustrated manuals in our kits that average 30-40 pages and we spend 1-2 hours of technical support for almost every kit and ARF we sell.
I think you will find that the $7000.00 laser is not near powerful enough to cut the type of kits you are looking at, unless you don't plan on putting any ply in your kits or cutting the ply by hand. A 60 watt laser will cut approx. 1-3 .60 size mono wing kits per hour, depending on the amount of parts and lightning holes. It takes approximately 1.5 hours to cut one of our simpler 60 size kits with a 60 watt laser using balsa and baltic birch. 1/8" aircraft grade could be cut at 1.5% speed on that laser and if I remember correctly, Pica kits that size use aircraft ply.
Unless you are growing balsa trees in your backyard, you will still need to come up with $10,000.00 for the materials that you will need to make the reward kits. If you have that money already, why not just put it toward the laser cutter and start taking pre-orders for kits? Adrian Page probably has inventory from his past business already. The only thing he needed was the cutter, while you need absolutely everything to go into full on kit production.
I would love to have a Pica T-28 to replace the one I lost a couple years ago, but so far, I can see that this venture just doesn't have the proper planning or funding to succeed.
Have you seen the instructions for Pica and Guillows kits? If you copy them and put them with your kits, not only will you have to do more technical support than you can handle, but you will probably have a lawsuit from both Guillows and Great Planes. You would spend more time on the phone giving technical support than you would making kits. We have photo illustrated manuals in our kits that average 30-40 pages and we spend 1-2 hours of technical support for almost every kit and ARF we sell.
I think you will find that the $7000.00 laser is not near powerful enough to cut the type of kits you are looking at, unless you don't plan on putting any ply in your kits or cutting the ply by hand. A 60 watt laser will cut approx. 1-3 .60 size mono wing kits per hour, depending on the amount of parts and lightning holes. It takes approximately 1.5 hours to cut one of our simpler 60 size kits with a 60 watt laser using balsa and baltic birch. 1/8" aircraft grade could be cut at 1.5% speed on that laser and if I remember correctly, Pica kits that size use aircraft ply.
Unless you are growing balsa trees in your backyard, you will still need to come up with $10,000.00 for the materials that you will need to make the reward kits. If you have that money already, why not just put it toward the laser cutter and start taking pre-orders for kits? Adrian Page probably has inventory from his past business already. The only thing he needed was the cutter, while you need absolutely everything to go into full on kit production.
I would love to have a Pica T-28 to replace the one I lost a couple years ago, but so far, I can see that this venture just doesn't have the proper planning or funding to succeed.
The laser cutter I would get would be more around $10,000, and would be a 90w laser tube, which, according to Full Spectrum Laser in Las Vegas, is four times the cutting power of the 60W tube. I will probably go with Full Spectrum Laser. I was anticipating getting $15,000 to $20,000 out of the Kickstarter campaign. As I said before, if I only get the minimum $9,500, then I will have a local lady who has a laser cutter do the work for me, and when I establish a reputation then do the Kickstarter campaign again. Adrian Page sent out a message to all of us pledgers (I got one of his 1/5 scale Gee Bee R-2 plans), and he said the large order of balsa and ply just arrived, so he used the $12,000 from the campaign to buy it, he did not already have the supply on hand, as you suggest. I think I would order the balsa and ply from Bud Nosen, as he seems to have the best prices and quality wood.