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Another Malaysian 777 crash

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Old 07-17-2014, 08:35 AM
  #1
Dieselman1220
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Default Another Malaysian 777 crash

Sad news to hear....I don't know if Malaysia Airlines will be able to recover from this..
http://kxan.com/2014/07/17/malaysian...es-in-ukraine/

Last edited by Dieselman1220; 07-17-2014 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:15 AM
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Looks like it was shot down by a Russian Surface to Air missile.
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:19 AM
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Wonder what would have happened if they shot down an american jet???
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrScoles View Post
Wonder what would have happened if they shot down an american jet???

nuclear war...
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Old 07-17-2014, 05:22 PM
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for whatever its worth there are 23 Americans reported to have been on board. That used to get shock and awe on the perpetrator, today it got 40 seconds of solemnity before HE started telling jokes in Delaware
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:03 PM
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Coincidence or not, Russia´s presidential airplane was flying near that place at the time the plane was shot down, taking Putin back to Russia after the world cup in Brazil...

It is likely that MH17 was shoot down by mistake in a confict zone.. a terrible tragedy.

Last edited by erbroens; 07-17-2014 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:08 PM
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For you full scale commercial pilots out there... Is it realistic for commercial jets to have sensors on board to detect a radar lock or threat and also have chaff and flare dispensers?
At least then the black box would record this data and the jet could try to defend itself from a threat. Im not advocating the pilots try to perform some maneuvers. It could even be an automatic response system the pilots wouldn't have to activate it the system would just respond as needed.
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:18 PM
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Nope no defensive systems onboard that would have prevented any sort of attack by air or ground. Pilots would have had no clue until it came apart. Sad. Being a commercial pilot is getting harder and harder to justify to family. I would support my kids if they want to become pilots like me but I sure hope they don't!!
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:24 PM
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Right I understand there are none, Im asking if its realistic today to add them in light of this tragedy.

I suppose the real obvious response would be to just not fly over a conflict zone but they did anyway.
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:30 PM
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Possible yes but practically no. Any system would be adding to aircraft weight and eventually overall fuel cost. In such a tight market most airlines wouldn't be able to absorb the cost of installation and maintenance on such systems much less the added fuel burn. Passengers want top notch service for cut rate prices you can do one but not both. So it's cut rate prices that wins the day.
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:36 PM
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Interesting thing on CNN they showed routs over the Ukraine of various jets and the MH flight was the furthest north. It was mistaken for a military transport plane and shot down. The route was approved but how stupid is this when its well known that its a war zone and just monday another transport was shot down!
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbroens View Post
Coincidence or not, Russia´s presidential airplane was flying near that place at the time the plane was shot down, taking Putin back to Russia after the world cup in Brazil...

It is likely that MH17 was shoot down by mistake in a confict zone.. a terrible tragedy.
True fact.
I've just red that could have been a false flag attack using the MH370 plane (the one lost a few months ago). BTW; supporting this, flightradar24.com points that MH17 yesterday was cancelled and never took off. In any case, missile came from "rebels" or Ukranians, no russians.
In the other hands, russians defence sources, points / pointed that prior to the catastrophe, Ukr planes were reported to be escorting the MH17.

FACT: lot of persons died and there is a war there; let's dedicate our prays and thoughs to the people suffering there, please (can we let appart comments about your politicians?).

Last edited by guille2006; 07-17-2014 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Completing report
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Old 07-18-2014, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Nicastro View Post
Right I understand there are none, Im asking if its realistic today to add them in light of this tragedy.

I suppose the real obvious response would be to just not fly over a conflict zone but they did anyway.
Countermeasures like chaff and flare dont really work by themselves. You also have to manouver your plane away from the path of the missle. The flares just try to confuse the missile while you change path. Chaff blocks their reciever.
I dont think you want commerical planes taking evasive manouvers. I mean, if we have to go that far..........that would mean certifying commercial airframes to military shock-loads. Note feasible.

It is easier to select a government with clear diplomatic postures.
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Old 07-18-2014, 05:46 AM
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Guille, that was another dreadful coincidence.. the plane crashed yesterday was precisely the same model and company that disappeared earlier this year. Even the not conspiracy theorists have some material this week for keeping thinking about.

About the flight radar 24 info also is true..



As far as I know, El-Al airways have anti-missile defenses and other systems in their planes.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/24/air.defense/

Last edited by erbroens; 07-18-2014 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 07-18-2014, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbroens View Post
Guille, that was another dreadful coincidence.. the plane crashed yesterday was precisely the same model and company that disappeared earlier this year. Even the not conspiracy theorists have some material this week for keeping thinking about.

About the flight radar 24 info also is true..



As far as I know, El-Al airways have anti-missile defenses and other systems in their planes.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/24/air.defense/
The Israeli system is for shoulder-fired heat seeking missiles. This aircraft was hit with a vehicle-launched, radar-guided missile system capable of hitting aircraft as high as 42,000'

Bob
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconWings View Post
Countermeasures like chaff and flare dont really work by themselves. You also have to manouver your plane away from the path of the missle. The flares just try to confuse the missile while you change path. Chaff blocks their reciever.
I dont think you want commerical planes taking evasive manouvers. I mean, if we have to go that far..........that would mean certifying commercial airframes to military shock-loads. Note feasible.

It is easier to select a government with clear diplomatic postures.
Precisely. A fighter jet can maneuver much tighter and quicker than a full sized jet liner, and chaff and flare need to be deployed while the a/c is making some serious maneuvers. Chaff and Flare is only effective if the a/c has been maneuvered in a way where the incoming weapon is "tricked" into thinking the flare is the jet's actual exhaust. In order for that to be accomplished, the a/c needs to make some really serious maneuvers in a very tight timeframe. I don't think a full sized jet liner has those maneuverable capabilities, and if it was even attempted, the jet might sustain structural damage because they aren't designed to be operated in such environments.

Plus adding chaff and flare components not only adds additional risk because they are either deployed with an explosive of some type or highly flammable in regards to the flare (delta class fire), but if you're adding such components, I think it would move the classification of "civilian" a/c closer to that of "military" a/c. Plus you'd have to set up an entire structure within the airlines that would be responsible for supporting such added systems from installing, PMS, etc. etc. It would have been more logical to have avoided the entire area completely. Communication is the biggest risk factor there is and this tragedy could have been the result of bad and/or miscommunications between all parties involved, as in, they may have been instructed to fly the route because "all parties" in the conflict are aware they are a civilian a/c. Too early to tell right now but I'm sure more information will become available as the investigation proceeds. Reminds me of the South Korean civilian airliner (KAL007) that was shot out of the sky by the Russians decades back. If you got time, take a look and read up on that incident.

Last edited by SushiHunter; 07-18-2014 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:11 AM
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I can be wrong, but think that a system that releases flares, for thermal guided missiles like the small, shoulder launched ones can release chaffs in the same sized cartridges, for radar guided missiles.

Anyway, due to complains by the FAA about civilian aircraft having anti-missile defense systems , El-Al switched to a more advanced and subtle laser based defense system. The official concern was about fire hazard on ground and houses due to falling flares,
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:37 AM
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Flight Guard:
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...ight_Guard.htm
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Old 07-18-2014, 10:32 AM
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Ladies and gentlemen RCU is politics free zone.

I have already removed more than half the posts in this thread.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:18 AM
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I would think moving it to full scale aiplanes would be more appropriate than killing the thread.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:43 AM
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Is not politics, it is mass murder. 300 innocents, not Russians not Ukrainians.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:51 PM
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Don’t forget that the USA shot down a civilian plane in the Gulf in 1988 flight 655
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:11 PM
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There has to be a US involvement in this area however clandestine it may be. Where did this advanced type of missile come from? and who trained these so called 'rebels' to use them?
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetster81 View Post
There has to be a US involvement in this area however clandestine it may be. Where did this advanced type of missile come from? and who trained these so called 'rebels' to use them?
The report was the missiles were russian made, The U.S. is not the only country with these types of missiles.

Last edited by ira d; 07-18-2014 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ira d View Post
The report was the missiles were russian made, The U.S. is not the only country with these types of missiles.
The missiles were russian made, fired by russian trained Ukranian rebels.
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