Local police, the FAA and an irate neighbor
09-18-2014, 04:48 PM
#127
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What reason would you not want to show your ID-The Officer is investigating another citizen's complaint and your the suspect of the origin of the complaint-I don't think the Officer is out of line for asking for a ID. Due to the fact the individual was present at the location of the complaint as well as participating in the activity that caused the complaint.
I could never be a police officer-I would not have patience for people with their BS and I would be arrested for violating someone's rights for more than asking for a ID
I could never be a police officer-I would not have patience for people with their BS and I would be arrested for violating someone's rights for more than asking for a ID
In this situation, sure, I probably would, but I don't have to. There's a heck of a difference between being the suspect of a crime and the subject of a noise complaint.
You made a blanket statement about showing ID to an officer whenever asked. The point I'm trying to make is that if a LEO randomly stops you and demands ID, you do NOT need to prove who you are. It is a right granted by our Constitution and only becomes a requirement in certain circumstances, such as when operating a motor vehicle. It is a choice, you might make the wrong one and it might end up badly as Mickydee pointed out, but if you have even a remote idea of what your rights are, you are in a better position. The problem is that most LEOs count on the fact that the majority of the population are sheeple and will just willingly give up their information and that makes their job easier.
..... and no, I don't have a problem with providing ID at a bank or boarding a plane or getting a rental car. Those are services that ~require~ you to have ID and are completely unrelated to the discussion.
Last edited by Hemikiller; 09-18-2014 at 04:58 PM.
09-18-2014, 05:18 PM
#128
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In this situation, sure, I probably would, but I don't have to. There's a heck of a difference between being the suspect of a crime and the subject of a noise complaint.
You made a blanket statement about showing ID to an officer whenever asked. The point I'm trying to make is that if a LEO randomly stops you and demands ID, you do NOT need to prove who you are. It is a right granted by our Constitution and only becomes a requirement in certain circumstances, such as when operating a motor vehicle. It is a choice, you might make the wrong one and it might end up badly as Mickydee pointed out, but if you have even a remote idea of what your rights are, you are in a better position. The problem is that most LEOs count on the fact that the majority of the population are sheeple and will just willingly give up their information and that makes their job easier.
Never assume that an officer has your best interests at heart. There are plenty of LEOs that have an axe to grind and if you happen to remind them of a sister/cousin/uncle/brother they don't like or the kid that bullied them in 6th grade, , they might very well try to ruin your day by throwing the book at you. I've seen it happen plenty of times to good people who made simple mistakes and have to live with black marks on their records.
..... and no, I don't have a problem with providing ID at a bank or boarding a plane or getting a rental car. Those are services that ~require~ you to have ID and are completely unrelated to the discussion.
You made a blanket statement about showing ID to an officer whenever asked. The point I'm trying to make is that if a LEO randomly stops you and demands ID, you do NOT need to prove who you are. It is a right granted by our Constitution and only becomes a requirement in certain circumstances, such as when operating a motor vehicle. It is a choice, you might make the wrong one and it might end up badly as Mickydee pointed out, but if you have even a remote idea of what your rights are, you are in a better position. The problem is that most LEOs count on the fact that the majority of the population are sheeple and will just willingly give up their information and that makes their job easier.
Never assume that an officer has your best interests at heart. There are plenty of LEOs that have an axe to grind and if you happen to remind them of a sister/cousin/uncle/brother they don't like or the kid that bullied them in 6th grade, , they might very well try to ruin your day by throwing the book at you. I've seen it happen plenty of times to good people who made simple mistakes and have to live with black marks on their records.
..... and no, I don't have a problem with providing ID at a bank or boarding a plane or getting a rental car. Those are services that ~require~ you to have ID and are completely unrelated to the discussion.
I guess according to your accounts I have been lucky-only contact I have ever had with a Officer was for traffic violations or when my truck was stolen-never ran into the "PLENTY WITH AN AXE TO GRIND" type-and always have been treated with respect as I have shown respect-You must have been mistreated by someone to feel this way.
I think you are wrong on providing ID -if your a suspect in any complaint that involves law enforcement you need to provide ID if asked by the investigating Officer. It may not go so well for YOU if you decide to explain your constitutional rights when asked for your ID-almost has the tone of being a "Horses behind" to make a Officers job more difficult-which also seems to be reflected in your previous post. But I am no lawyer just a law abiding citizen of the USA -that has never had a problem with Officers of the Law.
Just my thoughts and honest opinion.
09-19-2014, 08:56 AM
#129
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There are probably thousands of complaints lodged every day against people who have broken absolutely no laws. When an officer answers one of those complaints, as he is required to do by law, is he authorized to ask for the ID of the alleged perpetrator? Just as in the case in question in this thread, the officers were quick to point out that there is no law in our county regarding noise level. As there is no law regarding noise level and no officer observed the good doctor breaking any other laws, were they justified in asking for his ID?
09-19-2014, 10:24 AM
#130
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There are probably thousands of complaints lodged every day against people who have broken absolutely no laws. When an officer answers one of those complaints, as he is required to do by law, is he authorized to ask for the ID of the alleged perpetrator? Just as in the case in question in this thread, the officers were quick to point out that there is no law in our county regarding noise level. As there is no law regarding noise level and no officer observed the good doctor breaking any other laws, were they justified in asking for his ID?
09-19-2014, 03:53 PM
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I have a hypothetical question. In the same conversation that the deputies told us there was no noise ordinance in our county, they also told us that if we were over his house (I still don' believe it) and he shot us down, there wouldn't be much they could do about it (not sure of that either). Let's say he managed to hit the plane and damaged it enough to render it impossible to control and it crashed into a car on the road, whose fault is it, the flyer or the shooter? Np way we could blame it on Obama, is there?
09-19-2014, 05:47 PM
#132
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I have a hypothetical question. In the same conversation that the deputies told us there was no noise ordinance in our county, they also told us that if we were over his house (I still don' believe it) and he shot us down, there wouldn't be much they could do about it (not sure of that either). Let's say he managed to hit the plane and damaged it enough to render it impossible to control and it crashed into a car on the road, whose fault is it, the flyer or the shooter? Np way we could blame it on Obama, is there?
09-20-2014, 03:54 PM
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JollyPopper,
i don't live in your area, but where I live, some idiot banging away at a model airplane with a firearm from a trailer park would run the risk of being arrested for negligent discharge of a firearm. I would think police universally across our country would take a dim view of felony stupid antics with a firearm.
i don't live in your area, but where I live, some idiot banging away at a model airplane with a firearm from a trailer park would run the risk of being arrested for negligent discharge of a firearm. I would think police universally across our country would take a dim view of felony stupid antics with a firearm.
09-20-2014, 04:24 PM
#134
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You need to understand that I live in Arkansas. In a lot of ways, we are, shall we say, more laid back than in a lot of places. I also live in the county outside the city limits and gunfire is common. I would venture to say that very few days go by that I don't hear gunfire from my house. Nobody even notices. As tightly packed as that trailer park is, somebody might object to gunfire, but I doubt it.
09-20-2014, 08:29 PM
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Hello JollyPopper,
I envy that laid back way of life and will be moving to such a place when I retire in a few years. That said, wouldn't that guy be shooting in the general direction of your field if he's shooting at one of your aircraft? Wouldn't he be putting rounds your way? Also, isn't vandalism a crime in your county? You are not violating any laws by flying a model aircraft, but he gets to destroy it with gunfire because he doesn't like what you are doing?
Sometimes you need to think politically. Your local sheriff is an elected official. You, your club mates, and the property/business owner represent a constituency far more valuable than one guy and his daughter. If this guy takes things to a higher level with a firearm, then you need to go past the patrol deputies who don't grasp the significance of the problem. Be civil, be polite. After all, you understand the police are just doing their jobs when they investigate a citizen's complaint. However, enough is enough from this guy.
Work with the police whenever you can. They can be a powerful resource.
Good luck!
Mickydee
I envy that laid back way of life and will be moving to such a place when I retire in a few years. That said, wouldn't that guy be shooting in the general direction of your field if he's shooting at one of your aircraft? Wouldn't he be putting rounds your way? Also, isn't vandalism a crime in your county? You are not violating any laws by flying a model aircraft, but he gets to destroy it with gunfire because he doesn't like what you are doing?
Sometimes you need to think politically. Your local sheriff is an elected official. You, your club mates, and the property/business owner represent a constituency far more valuable than one guy and his daughter. If this guy takes things to a higher level with a firearm, then you need to go past the patrol deputies who don't grasp the significance of the problem. Be civil, be polite. After all, you understand the police are just doing their jobs when they investigate a citizen's complaint. However, enough is enough from this guy.
Work with the police whenever you can. They can be a powerful resource.
Good luck!
Mickydee
09-27-2014, 04:01 PM
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1990-2000 I was an ultralight flight instructor at Plum Island Mass. The same issue with a neighbor culminated in my observation of fireworks rockets peppering the nose of my MU 582 training vehicle. Like models, we in UL industry had worked out safe operating procedures for ultralight training (pattern alt 400ft, no flight over congested areas etc). It became clear that the individual was ill when he tried to 'shoot me down' and we were required to address the situation through restraining orders.
As long as your field is not in controlled airspace on the area sectional, the FAA has no business in this case.
I am concerned for members safety in your club as this guy sounds like an alcoholic with dual diagnosis. No telling what he might try.
Then again, you could power up the chutes and attach xenon lights to them along with sci-fi sound synthesiser and voice distortion equipment. Fly over his property at night (need landing lights on your strip) and perform a War of the Worlds Skit!
Sorry, can't help myself.
As long as your field is not in controlled airspace on the area sectional, the FAA has no business in this case.
I am concerned for members safety in your club as this guy sounds like an alcoholic with dual diagnosis. No telling what he might try.
Then again, you could power up the chutes and attach xenon lights to them along with sci-fi sound synthesiser and voice distortion equipment. Fly over his property at night (need landing lights on your strip) and perform a War of the Worlds Skit!
Sorry, can't help myself.
10-02-2014, 08:43 AM
#141
I love this thread. So many valuable suggestions and helpful advice. The opinions are a broad spectrum of life in these United States of America. The arm chair psychiatric evaluation was a very welcome contribution as well as the "let's beat him up behind the wood shed" thought, although thoughts like that clearly do not originate from a brain.
JollyPopper, I feel for your plight. Is your field private, gated, and secured from public use? Is it at all possible someone stopped by and decided to buzz the trailer park or one briefly got away from a member when the trailer guy was watching? It happens all the time. Compared to the fields where I fly, 1000 feet is nothing. It's not even a short par 4. Even though there may not be noise ordinances, the constant drone of a model airplane engine from 500 feet is annoying. Especially in the mornings and evenings when sound travels better and you'd like some piece and quiet. Oh sure, they claim fear hitting a power line and lighting their rented double wide a-blaze. I think it's the annoying sound more than the terrorizing fear of a raging inferno that probably sounds a whole lot better to the local authorities.
Get over the ID thing. Be friends with your local police and sheriff. You may need them on your side when he shows up with his NRA supported assault rifles. Talk about paranoid? Where's the psychiatrist now? If you really believe your personal well being is in jeopardy, which is more important, your life or flying toy airplanes? I'd find a new field, go save yourself.
Talk to the owner of the field about an AMA charter. Never have I heard the AMA not supporting the protection of legitimate flying sites. It is legitimate, right? If this situation escalates, having a charted membership with the AMA and documented flight guidelines may come in handy if it goes to court. "Look your honor, all flying members belong to the AMA and abide by these guidelines, see?"
As for the FAA, I'm glad the they're there. May be you see them as a threat in your case. Things are not like they were before the FAA became involved. When I started flying in 1970, there was no giant scale, drones, quads, jets, 3D flying, or FPV. Times have changed. If the neighbor's FPV was hovering above my patio, I'd flip and hire the trailer guy to go talk to him. If I had Mac Hodge's 110 pound out of control B-29 with 4 DA-100's at full throttle heading toward my daughter's head, well you get the idea. I know, the AMA doesn't agree with the FAA interpretation but safety and personal privacy should not be sacrificed. Be sure you understand the FAA ruling and the AMA's position, it may come in handy. For anyone worried about the FAA, if you follow the rules there will be no problems. Encourage others to do the same and do not ignore violations to protect the hobby we all love.
I hope you reach a swift resolution that's agreeable to all parties involved.
JollyPopper, I feel for your plight. Is your field private, gated, and secured from public use? Is it at all possible someone stopped by and decided to buzz the trailer park or one briefly got away from a member when the trailer guy was watching? It happens all the time. Compared to the fields where I fly, 1000 feet is nothing. It's not even a short par 4. Even though there may not be noise ordinances, the constant drone of a model airplane engine from 500 feet is annoying. Especially in the mornings and evenings when sound travels better and you'd like some piece and quiet. Oh sure, they claim fear hitting a power line and lighting their rented double wide a-blaze. I think it's the annoying sound more than the terrorizing fear of a raging inferno that probably sounds a whole lot better to the local authorities.
Get over the ID thing. Be friends with your local police and sheriff. You may need them on your side when he shows up with his NRA supported assault rifles. Talk about paranoid? Where's the psychiatrist now? If you really believe your personal well being is in jeopardy, which is more important, your life or flying toy airplanes? I'd find a new field, go save yourself.
Talk to the owner of the field about an AMA charter. Never have I heard the AMA not supporting the protection of legitimate flying sites. It is legitimate, right? If this situation escalates, having a charted membership with the AMA and documented flight guidelines may come in handy if it goes to court. "Look your honor, all flying members belong to the AMA and abide by these guidelines, see?"
As for the FAA, I'm glad the they're there. May be you see them as a threat in your case. Things are not like they were before the FAA became involved. When I started flying in 1970, there was no giant scale, drones, quads, jets, 3D flying, or FPV. Times have changed. If the neighbor's FPV was hovering above my patio, I'd flip and hire the trailer guy to go talk to him. If I had Mac Hodge's 110 pound out of control B-29 with 4 DA-100's at full throttle heading toward my daughter's head, well you get the idea. I know, the AMA doesn't agree with the FAA interpretation but safety and personal privacy should not be sacrificed. Be sure you understand the FAA ruling and the AMA's position, it may come in handy. For anyone worried about the FAA, if you follow the rules there will be no problems. Encourage others to do the same and do not ignore violations to protect the hobby we all love.
I hope you reach a swift resolution that's agreeable to all parties involved.
Last edited by FLAPSDOWN; 10-02-2014 at 04:11 PM.
10-02-2014, 08:06 PM
#142
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The immediate reaction to 1,000 feet is that we all routinely fly out that far, but I don't think so. I pulled our field up on Google Earth and measured the distance to a known obstacle south of our field, which happens to be some high voltage power lines. They are always clearly visible from our flight stations and measure 1,200 feet out from us. I don't recall anyone EVER flying out to those power lines. EVER. I also measured the runway which the owner has said in the past is 700 feet. Google showed it to be 706 feet. I then measured the distance to the guy's house, which I have always guessed to be 1,000 feet. Google says it is 1150 feet, so it is virtually the same distance to the power lines south of the field as it is to the guy's house north east of the field. As I said, nobody EVER flies anywhere near out to the power lines and I have no reason to believe that anyone flies out that far in the direction of the the guy's house. I think some of you guys whose automatic response is that you fly out a 1/2 mile or so need to measure the distance to an object that you never get to and see just what the distance is. Twelve hundred feet is almost a 1/4 mile. For those of you who have run drag cars on 1/4 mile tracks or watched dragsters on 1/4 mile strips, imagine a plane at one end of the strip and you at the starting line. How well can you see that airplane? Not well, I would guess..
Our field is private, is fenced and gated. We used to keep the gate closed and locked but about four years ago or so, we quit closing the gate. It was not necessary. Or so we thought. One reason is that to pull up to the gate and stop to unlock it leaves the truck hanging out in a pretty busy road, so we quit doing it.
Everyone keeps indicating that we need to get over the ID thing. If I left the impression that we were upset by that, I was in error. We were amused more that anything but I did raise the question if the police have the right to check for ID if nothing illegal is going on. I still wonder about that. Are we a police state or are we approaching a police state where the authorities can ask for ID any time they want. As far as needing names to write a report, that is pretty much hog wash. They can just as well put "operator" or "flyer" in the report instead of a name if they need to write a report. What earthly good does it do to give a name in the report if nothing illegal is in progress? But as far as being friendly with the police, we were and they were with us as well. There was absolutely no problem with the authorities as far as we were concerned. I still don't believe they should have the right to ask for identification unless something illegal is in progress.
We have sent a letter to the FAA indicating just who we are and stressing that we are doing nothing that even they would frown at. We have also extended a formal invitation for them to visit us at any time, unannounced, to observe what we are doing. I do understand that the burning down his trailer was simply a smoke screen to the cops because there is no noise ordinance. And as far as noise goes, this is a rural area where chain saws, lawn mowers, loud motor cycles, gun shots and loud trucks are a way of life. I can't see where model airplanes are any concern there. We don't fly quads, drones or FPV at all, so there should be no concern there at all. So the FAA and the local police are welcome at any time. In fact, I wish we could get a couple officers interested in flying with us.
Our field is private, is fenced and gated. We used to keep the gate closed and locked but about four years ago or so, we quit closing the gate. It was not necessary. Or so we thought. One reason is that to pull up to the gate and stop to unlock it leaves the truck hanging out in a pretty busy road, so we quit doing it.
Everyone keeps indicating that we need to get over the ID thing. If I left the impression that we were upset by that, I was in error. We were amused more that anything but I did raise the question if the police have the right to check for ID if nothing illegal is going on. I still wonder about that. Are we a police state or are we approaching a police state where the authorities can ask for ID any time they want. As far as needing names to write a report, that is pretty much hog wash. They can just as well put "operator" or "flyer" in the report instead of a name if they need to write a report. What earthly good does it do to give a name in the report if nothing illegal is in progress? But as far as being friendly with the police, we were and they were with us as well. There was absolutely no problem with the authorities as far as we were concerned. I still don't believe they should have the right to ask for identification unless something illegal is in progress.
We have sent a letter to the FAA indicating just who we are and stressing that we are doing nothing that even they would frown at. We have also extended a formal invitation for them to visit us at any time, unannounced, to observe what we are doing. I do understand that the burning down his trailer was simply a smoke screen to the cops because there is no noise ordinance. And as far as noise goes, this is a rural area where chain saws, lawn mowers, loud motor cycles, gun shots and loud trucks are a way of life. I can't see where model airplanes are any concern there. We don't fly quads, drones or FPV at all, so there should be no concern there at all. So the FAA and the local police are welcome at any time. In fact, I wish we could get a couple officers interested in flying with us.
10-03-2014, 12:15 PM
#143
EDITED : DELETED
We have sent a letter to the FAA indicating just who we are and stressing that we are doing nothing that even they would frown at. We have also extended a formal invitation for them to visit us at any time, unannounced, to observe what we are doing. I do understand that the burning down his trailer was simply a smoke screen to the cops because there is no noise ordinance. And as far as noise goes, this is a rural area where chain saws, lawn mowers, loud motor cycles, gun shots and loud trucks are a way of life. I can't see where model airplanes are any concern there. We don't fly quads, drones or FPV at all, so there should be no concern there at all. So the FAA and the local police are welcome at any time. In fact, I wish we could get a couple officers interested in flying with us.
We have sent a letter to the FAA indicating just who we are and stressing that we are doing nothing that even they would frown at. We have also extended a formal invitation for them to visit us at any time, unannounced, to observe what we are doing. I do understand that the burning down his trailer was simply a smoke screen to the cops because there is no noise ordinance. And as far as noise goes, this is a rural area where chain saws, lawn mowers, loud motor cycles, gun shots and loud trucks are a way of life. I can't see where model airplanes are any concern there. We don't fly quads, drones or FPV at all, so there should be no concern there at all. So the FAA and the local police are welcome at any time. In fact, I wish we could get a couple officers interested in flying with us.
As one with a long time in model aviation of all kinds, RC since 1971, CL and FF before that since 1945. Back in the 1978-82 time I was an AMA DVP for District VI. I have owned a Hobby Shop, flew airplanes, USAF and United Airlines, and had run-Ins with AMA, Policemen, IRATES that could only SEE the models. and others along the line not where problems were really not in any shape form or fashion. One big one was in north Indiana. Problems were folks that constantly yelling about noise being generated by a Glider - Sailplanes Club. Go figure!
1. An officer can take you in if he so desires, especially if you refuse to show identification, Driver's License being the favored one. Be happy if that is all he/she wants.
2. Host a neighborhood party to watch the modeling some Sat. or Sunday Afternoon with burgers or hot-dogs and drinks. Be sure to invite the local officers to join in.
3. Figure on something to get the majority on your side.
One other was a situation where a landowner allowed a club a certain area of his property to fly from. Unfortunately another land owner flew his private plane over the club's area on Approach or Take-off but at least a 1000 ft up when turning out/in. His wife refused to fly with him if there were models about. Well, it went to court and the judge was the good buddy of the guy with the 1:1 scale. He won hands down so the club went searching. Shot happens.
When I retired from UAL, I bought 100 acres. After some years the club owns 50 acres. I have made my money back by selling off the other 50 acres to 3 different folks. They have to abide by my contract for not bothering the RC Club.
Now that you folks know what a good guy I am, jump to AMA, read my Candidate Statement and vote for me, Horrace D. Cain AMA L-93, for AMA Executive Vice President.
If I win, you will know that I favor the Modeler and then AMA.
10-03-2014, 11:09 PM
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Jolly Popper,
I respect your right to your opinion, but you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to police matters. Much of our business is conducted on a consent basis with the public. Good police officers know how to talk to people in a constructive manner. They explain why they are contacting someone and why they need Identification, etc., and are usually able to gain voluntary cooperation. They don't have to have probable cause to ask to speak with someone anymore that you do, and they can ask for a person's cooperation and/or identification at any time. You have a right to withhold your cooperation and not produce identification if the police don't have probable cause to detain you. However, the police are not doing anything illegal by the simple act of asking. You may not like it, but as long as the police are professional about it, they are not doing anything wrong.
As for for gathering information for reports being hogwash? Please..... Gathering, storing, and processing information is a bread and butter part of good police work. I have been a police officer for the last 29 years and counting. One of my best assignments was being a detective sergeant in a city and surrounding area servicing over 250,000 people. I had from 10-12 investigators and a crime analyst working for me at any time. Guess what the crime analyst did. She scoured law enforcement data bases comprised of police reports, field identification cards, Automated License Plate Reader information, etc., as well as public data bases in order to find information and develope suspect leads for criminal investigations. The more data, the better. Where does this information come from? Police reports, Field identification cards, police notes, etc., generated by calls for police service, traffic stops, pedestrian stops, and consensual contacts with the public.
Best assignment I ever had. Fun, meaningful work, lots of overtime, on call pay 24/7, and a take home car. Those were the days....
I respect your right to your opinion, but you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to police matters. Much of our business is conducted on a consent basis with the public. Good police officers know how to talk to people in a constructive manner. They explain why they are contacting someone and why they need Identification, etc., and are usually able to gain voluntary cooperation. They don't have to have probable cause to ask to speak with someone anymore that you do, and they can ask for a person's cooperation and/or identification at any time. You have a right to withhold your cooperation and not produce identification if the police don't have probable cause to detain you. However, the police are not doing anything illegal by the simple act of asking. You may not like it, but as long as the police are professional about it, they are not doing anything wrong.
As for for gathering information for reports being hogwash? Please..... Gathering, storing, and processing information is a bread and butter part of good police work. I have been a police officer for the last 29 years and counting. One of my best assignments was being a detective sergeant in a city and surrounding area servicing over 250,000 people. I had from 10-12 investigators and a crime analyst working for me at any time. Guess what the crime analyst did. She scoured law enforcement data bases comprised of police reports, field identification cards, Automated License Plate Reader information, etc., as well as public data bases in order to find information and develope suspect leads for criminal investigations. The more data, the better. Where does this information come from? Police reports, Field identification cards, police notes, etc., generated by calls for police service, traffic stops, pedestrian stops, and consensual contacts with the public.
Best assignment I ever had. Fun, meaningful work, lots of overtime, on call pay 24/7, and a take home car. Those were the days....
