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AMA Useless!

Old 12-16-2015, 06:48 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by OliverJacob
I guess we all have expected way too much from the AMA.
Come to realize how little and powerless they are, it is time to look for a more affordable insurance carrier.
Most clubs I assume will do the same.
Doubtful. Notwithstanding the fact that the AMA isn't an insurance carrier, people get more out of the AMA than just the coverage that comes with being a member.

If it was just that easy to get different coverage from another carrier, this would have been done long ago.
Old 12-16-2015, 06:51 PM
  #152  
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federal law states that once something is proposed that we only have 10 days to appeal.
Old 12-16-2015, 07:00 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by OliverJacob
I guess we all have expected way too much from the AMA.
.
Many of us here knew we would get screwed in this deal and voiced our concerns to the "powers to be". We should have put as much distance as possible from the problem children but they choose to cuddle up with them anyway. Now we will pay the price. Pure crap in my book

Mike
Old 12-16-2015, 07:16 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Doubtful. Notwithstanding the fact that the AMA isn't an insurance carrier, people get more out of the AMA than just the coverage that comes with being a member.

If it was just that easy to get different coverage from another carrier, this would have been done long ago.

I didn't think AMA was an insurance carrier, they are rather an insurance broker.
They just buy the coverage. Point is - most of us do not ever use the benefits mentioned here.
Most of us are AMA members because our clubs require AMA membership.

And I have no doubts that there will be an alternative.
Old 12-16-2015, 07:34 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by OliverJacob
I didn't think AMA was an insurance carrier, they are rather an insurance broker.
They just buy the coverage. Point is - most of us do not ever use the benefits mentioned here.
Most of us are AMA members because our clubs require AMA membership.

And I have no doubts that there will be an alternative.
People will utilize different benefits afforded to them through their membership with the AMA, it's a personal preference of course. Some see it as solely an insurance product, others more than that.

As to the alternative, that's certainly debatable. One group tried that 20 years ago and it didn't work. If it was easy and could be done, I would venture a guess to say it would have been done by now. With entrepreneurship and a profit (or even altruism) incentive, I would have thought at some point this could have happened. Again, strip away everything else that comes with the AMA membership and just focus on the liability coverage. For arguments sake lets say another org like the AMA is created and is viable. They offer nothing but insurance to satisfy landowners needs, and the same if not more coverage than the AMA. Then you compare to the AMA. I would guess the landowners wouldn't care unless they could get more coverage from the new entity. So that's a probably win for the new entity. Then comes the membership. Do they stay with the AMA or try the new guy int town. That would certainly be interesting, and might be the wake up call that many feel the AMA needs. I believe competition is great, and usually benefits the consumer.
Old 12-17-2015, 04:53 AM
  #156  
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[QUOTE=porcia83;12143408. One group tried that 20 years ago and it didn't work. .[/QUOTE]

Due to a ugly lawsuit, involving guess who? They had some problems but still offered a pretty good product. Our club held charter's with both the AMA and SFA even though the AMA said we couldn't hold a duel charter. .
Details here.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...sociation.html

Never know with what has transpired as of late the time may be right for some insurance company (God knows there's enough of them) to offer insurance to clubs and individuals.

Mike
Old 12-17-2015, 05:17 AM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
Due to a ugly lawsuit, involving guess who? They had some problems but still offered a pretty good product. Our club held charter's with both the AMA and SFA even though the AMA said we couldn't hold a duel charter. .
Details here.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...sociation.html

Never know with what has transpired as of late the time may be right for some insurance company (God knows there's enough of them) to offer insurance to clubs and individuals.

Mike
Ya...funny thing happens when you are sued...you become involved in a lawsuit. The SFA was a disaster overall, and was crushed in court. AMA appropriately counter-sued them and the SFA got exactly what they deserved, a chapter 11 filing. If they had just tried to compete with a good product, and skipped all the nasty games they played, they might have had a go at it.

You and I are in agreement on the issue issue though, the time might be right for an alternative. If the SFA was able to get underwriting, don't see why someone else couldn't do it now. The most vocal opponents of AMA, and AMA leadership have the best opportunity now to strike out and make their mark. Will they? Looking at the old AMA threads going back 10 plus years, in all likelihood nothing will happen, just more complaints. Mixed in with the complaints will be some more good ideas, but nobody willing to step up and get more involved and actually do something.

I know it's going back a while, but do you recall what the SFA benefits were? As a side by side, where they similar? Also, why would your club hold two charters that might have offered the same coverage? Was there a benefit to that, or was that to allow both SFA and AMA "pilots" to use the field?
Old 12-17-2015, 05:31 AM
  #158  
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i am wondering just how much influence some think the AMA can have on a huge bureaucracy like the FAA? the AMA was trying to influence/control what happened but to think that they would be able to head this off with all the stupid things some people are doing with drones/uavs doesn't make sense. How much pure political power do you think we have? for instance how much money have we contributed to political campaigns? when it comes to having any REAL effectyou need to spend millions of dollars- maybe $20-30 million or more to produce ads to show the positive effects of our hobby and maybe go around to see what shows you can get on to spread the positive word, so when we have that kind of money to spend this might change but when the BIG boys (the AUVSI) are saying how great this is and that it will be a big positive effect then the AMA has no chance to affect this.

as for me its clear that they will continue onward but the only way to help this is to spend BIG money - so how many will contribute big bucks to a PR campaign?

Ed
Old 12-17-2015, 05:36 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by rc34074
i am wondering just how much influence some think the AMA can have on a huge bureaucracy like the FAA? the AMA was trying to influence/control what happened but to think that they would be able to head this off with all the stupid things some people are doing with drones/uavs doesn't make sense. How much pure political power do you think we have? for instance how much money have we contributed to political campaigns? when it comes to having any REAL effectyou need to spend millions of dollars- maybe $20-30 million or more to produce ads to show the positive effects of our hobby and maybe go around to see what shows you can get on to spread the positive word, so when we have that kind of money to spend this might change but when the BIG boys (the AUVSI) are saying how great this is and that it will be a big positive effect then the AMA has no chance to affect this.

as for me its clear that they will continue onward but the only way to help this is to spend BIG money - so how many will contribute big bucks to a PR campaign?

Ed
You make some great points there. But here's the thing..did any of the "BIG" boys get what they wanted out of this FAA ruling? If so I must be missing it. i don't see that anyone won anything here, including the FAA. I really doubt they wanted to create a whole new level of bureaucracy to track our toys. I think they have more pressing issues to deal with.
Old 12-17-2015, 05:41 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
Ya...funny thing happens when you are sued...you become involved in a lawsuit. The SFA was a disaster overall, and was crushed in court. AMA appropriately counter-sued them and the SFA got exactly what they deserved, a chapter 11 filing. If they had just tried to compete with a good product, and skipped all the nasty games they played, they might have had a go at it.

You and I are in agreement on the issue issue though, the time might be right for an alternative. If the SFA was able to get underwriting, don't see why someone else couldn't do it now. The most vocal opponents of AMA, and AMA leadership have the best opportunity now to strike out and make their mark. Will they? Looking at the old AMA threads going back 10 plus years, in all likelihood nothing will happen, just more complaints. Mixed in with the complaints will be some more good ideas, but nobody willing to step up and get more involved and actually do something.

I know it's going back a while, but do you recall what the SFA benefits were? As a side by side, where they similar? Also, why would your club hold two charters that might have offered the same coverage? Was there a benefit to that, or was that to allow both SFA and AMA "pilots" to use the field?

I find nothing funny at all about lawsuits. We allowed both AMA and SFA at our field. Never had a issue and never had a claim with SFA. As far as coverage I believe they were similar. The SFA was "a disaster overall" I thought they were just fine coverage is coverage and satisfied our landowner.
What's to stop say Nationwide or any other carrier from getting into the site owner and flyer insurance business? I read stuff like
" best opportunity now to strike out and make their mark" . i would think a established insurance company would be the way to go.
Mike
Old 12-17-2015, 05:47 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by rc34074
i am wondering just how much influence some think the AMA can have on a huge bureaucracy like the FAA? the AMA was trying to influence/control what happened but to think that they would be able to head this off with all the stupid things some people are doing with drones/uavs doesn't make sense. How much pure political power do you think we have? for instance how much money have we contributed to political campaigns? when it comes to having any REAL effectyou need to spend millions of dollars- maybe $20-30 million or more to produce ads to show the positive effects of our hobby and maybe go around to see what shows you can get on to spread the positive word, so when we have that kind of money to spend this might change but when the BIG boys (the AUVSI) are saying how great this is and that it will be a big positive effect then the AMA has no chance to affect this.

as for me its clear that they will continue onward but the only way to help this is to spend BIG money - so how many will contribute big bucks to a PR campaign?

Ed
I agree we (the AMA) were just bait in a big pond to these guys. We had neither the funds or the expertise to lobby in DC. Our only chance was to distance ourselves from the whole "drone" deal and stand on our record of members operational safety which was pretty much voluntary compliance on our part.
We ( the AMA ) choose poorly.

Mike .
Old 12-17-2015, 06:01 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
I agree we (the AMA) were just bait in a big pond to these guys. We had neither the funds or the expertise to lobby in DC. Our only chance was to distance ourselves from the whole "drone" deal and stand on our record of members operational safety which was pretty much voluntary compliance on our part.
We ( the AMA ) choose poorly.

Mike .
If that's the case, distancing ourselves would have made no difference, and in fact hurt the AMA more. The FAA still would have issued this ruling, and the AMA would have turned away prospective new members.
Old 12-17-2015, 06:10 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
I find nothing funny at all about lawsuits. We allowed both AMA and SFA at our field. Never had a issue and never had a claim with SFA. As far as coverage I believe they were similar. The SFA was "a disaster overall" I thought they were just fine coverage is coverage and satisfied our landowner.
What's to stop say Nationwide or any other carrier from getting into the site owner and flyer insurance business? I read stuff like
" best opportunity now to strike out and make their mark" . i would think a established insurance company would be the way to go.
Mike
You have to deal with a lot of lawsuits to find some humor in them. It happens once in a while.

You would think an established insurance company would be the way to go right? This probably is the best opportunity now to strike out and make their mark. So who is going to do it? Frankin might be taking a crack at it in a few days, I just gave him some names of well established carriers who deal with commercial coverage.

So was SFA just a liability policy, it didn't have any of the other functions and benefits of an AMA membership? No magazine, no site assistance, no expensive HQ etc. If that's the case a new entity should not only be able to compete with the AMA, but be able to soundly beat them. If the SFA was able to do this 20 years ago, no reason why it could not happen now.
Old 12-17-2015, 07:28 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
If that's the case, distancing ourselves would have made no difference, and in fact hurt the AMA more. The FAA still would have issued this ruling, and the AMA would have turned away prospective new members.

First protect what you have.That should have been the number one priority. It was not.

Mike
Old 12-17-2015, 07:55 AM
  #165  
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We hold an annual Fun Fly (AMA Sanctioned) at our local airfield. Every year we get a dozen or so wonderful guys from Canada who come down to participate.

How will this new tax and registration effect them?
Old 12-17-2015, 08:17 AM
  #166  
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Last time I heard no one was forced to be a member of the AMA. If you don't like it don't join. As for the SFA did anyone ever make a claim to them?
Old 12-17-2015, 09:04 AM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Charlie P.
We hold an annual Fun Fly (AMA Sanctioned) at our local airfield. Every year we get a dozen or so wonderful guys from Canada who come down to participate.

How will this new tax and registration effect them?
It won't. Only US citizens are required to register. Tell them our tale of woe and convince them to bring some more Molson.
Old 12-17-2015, 09:55 AM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
It won't. Only US citizens are required to register. Tell them our tale of woe and convince them to bring some more Molson.
Not so. Permanent residents with foreign passports must also register. And, as for visitors, I read this to say they must also register and pay the fee.

"In this instance, with respect to those individuals who do not satisfy the citizenship requirements and yet wish to conduct model aircraft operations in the U.S., the Secretary has determined, consistent with Article 8, and the authority under 49 U.S.C. 41703, as implemented in 14 CFR part 375, that it is appropriate to allow these operations to occur provided that individuals complete the process set forth in 14 CFR part 48 and comply with the statutory requirements for conducting model aircraft operations in Public Law 112-95, section 336 (Feb. 14, 2012."
Old 12-17-2015, 11:09 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by rcmiket
First protect what you have.That should have been the number one priority. It was not.

Mike
At what point did you stop selling drones to "first protect what you have"?
Old 12-17-2015, 11:21 AM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by RC_Fanatic
Not so. Permanent residents with foreign passports must also register. And, as for visitors, I read this to say they must also register and pay the fee.

"In this instance, with respect to those individuals who do not satisfy the citizenship requirements and yet wish to conduct model aircraft operations in the U.S., the Secretary has determined, consistent with Article 8, and the authority under 49 U.S.C. 41703, as implemented in 14 CFR part 375, that it is appropriate to allow these operations to occur provided that individuals complete the process set forth in 14 CFR part 48 and comply with the statutory requirements for conducting model aircraft operations in Public Law 112-95, section 336 (Feb. 14, 2012."
I stand corrected. Would still suggest asking for more Molson. Can't hurt.
Old 12-17-2015, 11:45 AM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by porcia83
I stand corrected. Would still suggest asking for more Molson. Can't hurt.
From what I understand foreigners will need to apply, pay their $5 but its not called "registration" in their case. The certificate is for
"proof of ownership" only and we can apply for a rebate on the $5.

I'll let you know for sure after I apply on the 21st...
Old 12-17-2015, 12:25 PM
  #172  
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I am amazed at the level of vitriol being leveled at the AMA over the FAA's decision. If you take the time to read the entire rule and the preamble discussing the comments (yes, all 200+ pages), I think you'll find that the AMA actually did a very good job representing our interests. Numerous times throughout are discussions of comments made by the AMA and its membership through the rule making process. The arguments presented by the AMA and its members were generally well presented, factual, and based in law. The FAA chose to ignore them. No justification, no explanation.

The insurance marketing email had nothing to do with the AMA, other than the AMA is making money by selling its membership contact information to that company. This is a very common practice among non-profit organizations, and those dollars will also help fund the fight. I don't care if I get more junk mail from the AMA, as long as I know its getting us the resources we need to do battle with the Washington, DC bureaucrats.

For those that say the AMA chose poorly by embracing the multirotor aspect of the hobby, has occurred that if they hadn't, they wouldn't even have had a seat at the table! The FAA is lumping ALL RC aircraft into the SUAS category. the FAA doesn't care how many props, how big the craft, how its used, or anything else. The AMA couldn't change that. The only way to change it at this point will be with big money and the courts. The AMA is the only game in town where we can continue to pool our resources and fight for the right outcome. Unless you have your own personal legal practice and want to take it on pro bono for the rest of us.

Brad
Old 12-17-2015, 12:57 PM
  #173  
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The battles and challenges of the hobby in the past have been won and lost by common sense used by club members and individual club officers. In my club, it is hard to get officers period. At the point of being left out to dry, I wonder how many good club officers will resign because they are just tired of it all.

Significant loss today for the hobby. Spoke to a friend who was about to get back into the hobby after a 9 year hiatus. After reading and hearing about the mess with the registration, he has decided to not get back into the hobby. Yes, it is only one person but each person who decides not to get into or take back up the hobby is a great loss. This middle age guy had saved a good portion of money to get back into the sport. The shame of it all is that he was a great pilot, great instructor and all around good guy. What a loss.
Old 12-17-2015, 02:04 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by rutanman
The battles and challenges of the hobby in the past have been won and lost by common sense used by club members and individual club officers. In my club, it is hard to get officers period. At the point of being left out to dry, I wonder how many good club officers will resign because they are just tired of it all.

95% of the hassle of being a club officer has to do with dealing with problem members whose only goal is to cause disruption within the club.

Significant loss today for the hobby. Spoke to a friend who was about to get back into the hobby after a 9 year hiatus. After reading and hearing about the mess with the registration, he has decided to not get back into the hobby. Yes, it is only one person but each person who decides not to get into or take back up the hobby is a great loss. This middle age guy had saved a good portion of money to get back into the sport. The shame of it all is that he was a great pilot, great instructor and all around good guy. What a loss.

It's hard to believe that a simple free on-line registration process could cause someone to not return to the hobby. It certainly won't impact my ability to continue to enjoy the hobby just as I do today.
..
Old 12-17-2015, 02:12 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by bkdavy
I am amazed at the level of vitriol being leveled at the AMA over the FAA's decision.
But, when you're mad as hell you HAVE to blame someone! It's how witches get burned at the stake.

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