bakes65

I'm saddened to report that my favorite LHS went "toes up".

It is my belief that he was the victim of mail order and internet commerce syndrome. This is a serious malady whereas the hobbyist is so enamored with the convenience and the allure of tax free shopping that he totally neglects the LHS and no longer continues to support that LHS fiscally. That LHS finally succumbs to the economic pressure when the bills aren't getting paid and he's two months behind on the rent. Uh-oh.

Next thing you know, he's having a going out of business sale. And that's when all the vultures converge and get great deals on stuff because this guy's forced to close his doors. The thing that really infuriates me is they'll shake the proprietors hand and say how sorry they are to see him forced out of business as they're handing him two twenty dollar bills for an engine with a retail value of $129.[:@]

My point is this people. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL HOBBY SHOP! That guy that owns the joint didn't do it to get rich. (Have you EVER seen a rich hobby shop owner?! I haven't.)He did it for the same reasons you and I fly. It was a dream of his, a passion, he was an enthusiast that just wanted to take it to the next level. His main reasons for opening a hobby shop were to share and encourage those same dreams and passions with others, to promote this wonderful hobby. And, hopefully, to support himself and family as well. God bless him for trying.

Don't want to pay retail? Don't! Every Hobby shop I do business with will match mail order prices. I've got one now that beats mail order by 10%! (Saves me the tax doesn't it?) Don't be afraid to ask either. That proprietor knows that: 1.) You work hard for your $$$. and 2.) You can buy it cheaper on-line. He doesn't want to see you buy it from Horizon or Tower or any of the others. He wants/needs your $$$ to support his business/family. And when you don't support him, it's inevitable that he'll go "toes up" before too long as well. Then when you bust a motor mount in your plane or need a couple of props, where you gonna go? Now you get to wait four or five days and pay astronomical shipping charges for your twenty dollar order. Think about it.

I'll get off my soap-box now. If you've read this far, thanks for letting me vent. If you agree/disagree with the contents, add a reply so we can keep this thread on the first page!

nascarjoe

Mail-order may not be as much of a problem as many people think. As far as the shop owner is concerned, anyone could make up any reason why too few customers come through his door - so, mail-order works as well as any other reason.

Sure those in the sport, for several reasons will shop mail-order, be it convenience, price, availability of products, but fact is, there just isn't that big of an RC aeromodeling customer base in the first place. AMA only has 170,000 members on record, but even with the non AMA customer, a hobby shop may only have a couple of flying fields/clubs in his or her area. Then there is the fact that those clubs may only have 30 members of whom only 6or7 are active (read:buying) fliers.

As far as too many modeler/customers are concerned, price is king and if the shop owner can't essentially sell his stock at a loss, he's not competitive and doesn't deserve to survive. In the end, everyone loses.

My instructor and I are currently working on a marketing program so that hobby shop owners everywhere can effectively compete with mail-order. This program has already proven highly succcessful in several local hobby shops, including mine. So if there are any hobby shop owners interested in discussing this program with us, we will be glad to oblige. After all, we are all in this together.

Joe Bartholomew
Lighthouse Hobbies
1560 Lockport St.
Olcott, NY 14126
1-716-778-0471
1-716-434-7965

nbcguy

As much as I love browsing around the LHS and buying some tools and the occasional Saito, you can't beat the convenience of online shopping. As far as bartering with the store owner, I can't bring myself to do it. Selling stuff at his price is his livelihood, and I hate to reduce my business there to car lot tactics.[:'(]

But you can't blame places like Tower, Horizon, and the like. It's evolution, and it's here to stay... sort of like ARFs

csmbt

Just my 2cents - I totally agree that supporting your LHS is
a great idea as they are a source of information not to mention
contacts locally. Also try taking in your current project be it
wing/fuse/engine/whatever pointing to the bit you need and
say OK what do i need to finish / make this work / or what size
with an online retailer or E-Bay!
However I also see the advantage of online shopping for
some really obscure/collectable or otherwise possibly
non-profitable (for the LHS that is) item that may not be feasible
for them to carry in stock.
I have also found that some hobby stores moan and complain
about competition from the internet when in reality their problem
is they are run very poorly,totally overpriced or very under capitilized
Case in point In my town of Tucson we have a world class hobby store
that even though they are a hole in the wall location does very well as
they are always well stocked, the prices are reasonable ( when you throw
in shipping almost always equal to online) and will happily order you
any obscure bit you need, not to mention the friendly service. They have
been in business for years and it shows.
On the other hand we have another small LHS that is dusty unkempt
used stuff packaged as new amazingly overpriced and the owner constantly
moans about how e-bay is putting him out of business. Now I don't deny that
there is online competition but I can think of other reasons he isn't doing well.
How is online competition any different from having a well run competitor
down the street or having a national chain in the area (Barnes and Noble vs local
bookstores is an example that comes to mind ) in my opinion if you run your
business well and get a good local reputation you will keep your doors open.
Online competion is tough but it is not the only reason LHS's close

Christopher

bakes65

I can appreicate what you're saying, however, when you walk out of his door and send a payment albeit through the mail or online credit card, you're doing two things, or rather, you're not doing two things: 1. Supporting your local economy. (ie, I live near Rochester, NY. Home of Eastman Kodak company, a major employer in this region who employed my father for 30+ years and kept food on the table when I was a "youngun'", therefore I buy and will continue to buy Kodak products and I will only patronize film processors who use Kodak products. Even if it costs me more, I WILL NOT support Fuji or AGFA.) 2. Prolonging the life of your LHS.

As far as "Car Lot" tactics, nobody asked you to haggle. My approach is simply to ask if it is the store policy to match mail order or online prices. To the best of my knowledge, I've never offended anyone.

As always, thanks for your input. We can be gentlemen enough to "agree to disagree".

bakes65

Joe, thanks for your input. If I'm ever in the Olcott area, I'll look you up. I really enjoy touring the Hobby shops. (just returned from a Syracuse shop)

The LHS I'm in reference to was not only R/C, but was model railroading, scale models, puzzles, paint supplys, coin collecting, rocketry and more. Obviously more than just an R/C customer base. What really saddened me most was he was what I would consider a friend. He didn't stock a GREAT amount of any one thing, he didn't have the cleanest store either. What he did have I came to appreciate, KNOWLEDGE! I'm still what I consider a NEWBIE and I always have tons of questions. (thank the good Lord for this website by the way.) He always had sound advice for me, and I appreciated that. I guess I'm just angry that after nine years in business he had to fold.

nascarjoe

Bakes,

The reason I emphasize RC aircaft is that there are so many places which specialize in model railroading, puzzles, coin collecting and rc cars. It is just too hard to get people into anything other than RC flying, which is what we've found is very easy.
We really have no competition considering we offer a on-demand RC flying hands-on offer, something that I am quite cerain that no one else offers. We will let anyone fly both RC airplanes and helicopters, just for the asking. It doesn't matter even if they say they can't afford to buy anything, we will give anyone 30 minutes of sticktime.

We don't wait for anyone to ask about RC flying, we ask everyone first. You would be surprised at the enormous number of people who either have always wanted to fly, but were afraid to ask, and those who already have airplanes and helicopters but were to afraid to fly or couldn't find someone to help them. If you can already fly, we have many types of airplanes that we will let you fly, just to try out a different airplane. This is how we can compete with mail-order, as with a service like this, we have no trouble charging higher than mail-order prices.

Want to learn how to fly? We offer on-demand free flight instruction with purchase of a kit or full combo outfit. We have a flying field and club 1/8 mile from our shop. This is something that we can easily pass on to other hobby shop owners, the only thing they will have to do is come to our area for a week and we will teach them or their employees how to not only fly, but also teach the art of RC flying. Great Planes and Horizon is very much interested in this program, but will have to wait until next flying season to take advantage of this program.

Joe Bartholomew
Lighthouse Hobbies
1560 Lockport St.
Olcott, NY 14126
1-716-778-0471
__________________________________________________ _______________________

"Swim upstream. Go the other way. Ignore the conventional wisdom. If everybody else is doing it one way, there's a good chance you can find your niche by going in the exactly the opposite direction."

-- Sam Walton

Luftman

My Feedback: (1)

I certainly agree with your overall sentiment, however,competition is the nature of the beast. A LHS is a business and is subject to all sorts of competition just as any other business is, regardless of industry. As for me, I find that patronizing the LHS is noble/good/virtuious however if my assortment of LHSs will not provide a reasonable price or selection, I am inclined to go online and get the most for my money. Another issue to consider in this debate is the time and money spent going to the LHS (particularly if its not so local), for some this can be of paramount consideration and will affect whether or not they shop online. The complaints of eBay and Tower being unfair competition is just absurd, while they dont have the "brick and mortar" taxes are taxes, payroll is payroll etc. Similarly, other online stores certainly add to the collective pool of competition too. Ultimately, if one doesnt like the unfair competition that online businesses present, I assume that they are waiting for the "revolution" to begin as capitalisim has once more presented an internal weakness and will soon fail under its own weight. In sum, I think the problem being addressed here is more than just the LHS going out of business, rather, in a capitalist economy we must speak with our pocketbooks to affect substantial change to the situations we do/don't approve of.

Cheers!

DCD1961

To the Group –

I am a newbie to the hobby but I have been in the e-commerce /retail game for quite a while. When a retail store folds, sometimes the Internet is to blame but as often as not, it isn’t.

Bakes65, no disrespect intended to your LHS, but quite often retailers fold because they do not keep in step with the times. The Internet is here to stay but it certainly is no panacea. There are advantages to being a “brick & mortar� outfit that the Internet cannot match. The key however, is that retailers must recognize and leverage those advantages.

One of the problems I’ve seen is that many retailers continue to “do what they’ve always done� with no regard to how their business has changed. The crusty old codger who runs a hobby shop is an image that we all know and love – but that old boy better know a thing or two about running an efficient operation, being involved in the local club scene, and selling value-added services. And oh, by the way, being pleasant and accommodating to his customers wouldn’t hurt, either.

I am a tremendous fan (and supporter) of retail shops. As a matter of fact, I am bartering a website for some R/C product as we speak. But I also know that retailers have a responsibility to earn my business – every time I visit. Otherwise, I will take my business elsewhere.

Bob101

Actually the people I know locally at the field are trying/hoping/praying our LHS goes out of business so we can get someone in business maybe who will do a better job.

We're talking about a hobby shop that carries trains/RC-planes/cars/plastic models etc...

Actual favorite quotes from there are..

"No we don't stock 12x6 props because that's a really goofy size no one would use".

"Yes we have Futaba radio crystals - here's a stack of 30 of them - all the same channel - why would you want different channels?"

"No we don't stock engines larger than a .61 - I mean who would fly such a big plane?" ....maybe 90% of the local club...

Or the fill in for all questions "No they don't make that" No matter what you ask for , if they don't carry it - it's not made. Can I have a 12x6 APC prop? No - they don't make those.

When the club got together and made a list of stuff that nearly everyone buys mail order on a regular basis the list was refused. Never seen the store owner or any of his other employees make it to the field or heard of anyone that has seen them.

Mainly it's just aggravating because he could attend our field one Saturday for an hour a year and do a 1000% better job of serving us (that is his job right?)..but he just blows it all off as who cares.

It's not the prices either, his prices are competitive (actually on 90% of the stuff his prices are EXACTLY the same as tower - if he has it).

It can't be because he can't afford the inventory. I mean he has a huge inventory - of stuff no one wants to buy. I've been going there for stuff for many years (only what I'm too cheap to pay shipping as I really hopes he folds and we get a new store/owner) and I swear some of the plane stock/related gear has been on the shelves for at least 5+ years - yet if he actually sells one item in 5 years he re-orders it.

nascarjoe

As a hobby shop owner, I cringe everytime I read how modelers are happy that a shop owner matches mail-order prices. You see, when we do match mail-order prices we are selling on a 20% markup. Keep in mind that we are usually only service one or two clubs, with maybe collectively 10 regular buying customers, that is if we are lucky. If we stock everything that is needed, chances are, we will be stuck with thousands of dollars worth of products forever collecting dust.

One large shop owner said that he made $800,000 sales one year and after expenses, he only took home $20,000. And that was after working 70 hour weeks. Mail-order is our distributor and at the same time, our competitor. They sell all over world to milions of people and the shop owner may have a dozen twice a week customers. How the devil can we be competitive like that? Oh well.

nascarjoe

WCB

I don't mind spending a little more to buy something at my LHS. A great bunch of guys with a wealth of knowledge that they never charged me a penny to tap and I have leaned on them many times. I have most of their home phone numbers and no doubt if I REALLY needed something on Sunday afternoon(they are closed) they would meet me at the store and not only open up and sell it but help me install it. If I am looking at something they don't try to pawn it off on me just to make a sale, they tell me up front.."you don't really need that" and will show me or tell me a shortcut that saves me money. Sure I could order the same thing from Tower and save a dollar or two, but these folks have been good to me and I figure I at least owe them my patronage.

geish

I'm new to this hobby and I'm all for supporting my LHS. I keep going to the same one. The owner of the place just keeps me coming back. It's a mom and pop place and the atmosphere is great. The thing that really touched me is that the guy actually cares about his customers. He balanced my prop, and tuned my engine for me. Those are reasons enough to keep me coming to his store. Thanks Bax.

phread59

I am a huge fan of the LHS. Even if they are 30+ miles away. I do some ordering over the net. Mostly plans and wood stuff the LHS cannot order. The knowledge is a good thing to get but another thing to look at is if the propriater does not know the answer to a question I'll bet he knows someone who does. It is this aspect that draws me there. It is like a data base of valuble info. Want info on a particular engine, plane ,radio, kit ect. he knows who has or had one and can get you in touch with that person. I also am a very inquisitive and talkative person (as if you couldn't tell from my posts). I learned so much from some of the guys at the LHS it is unreal.

Anyway it is also nice when you broke your last 11-6 APC prop on Friday evening. To go to your LHS and buy a few more for Saturday morning. I just wish I had the money to open my own. SIGH

Mark Shuman

Chuckr53-RCU

My Feedback: (40)

I shop at my LHS and on the internet. I think most RCers do the same. Recently my LHS sold me a Futatba 9CAP, transmitter only, for $225 right out of the box. I can't find a competitive price on the Net, but Tower sells the same radio with the 16K CamPac for $389.99. I think I got a great deal, and I'm a happy flier!

Your LHS can meet your needs...sometimes. Do yourself a favor for your major buys, always try your LHS first...then the Internet.

When it comes to the day to day, small stuff for building and flying, I always shop my LHS. After all, that's where he probably has the best margins anyway.

My $0.02

Daddyo57

My Feedback: (15)

I agree with DCD1961 on the not keeping up with the times!!! our LHS went through a stage where they didnt, and I know the business suffered, now they have a guy who seems to have dragged them into the year 2003. I always give them the chance to come close to mail order prices, and sometimes they do!! when they dont want to, I mail order, no guilt at all I gave them the chance, but if someone has a great deal on something, I am all over it like Powermaster 15% for 9.95 at Hobby People my LHS refuses to sell it, no guilt.

raptor5900

My Feedback: (4)

well fule and props and some small hardware i always buy from my LHS........but the 2 most $ thigs i've baught are $200 and $230 otherwise i go to tower or someone who deals with what i'm looking for.........now that i'm getting in to higher levels of compititon i need to go elsware for alot of my stuff..........my LHS doesnt sell 2M pattern planes[].........but i will support them cuz they support me with more that just stuff but info and reviews

David Cutler

I know price is the factor most quoted for the reason people buy on line, but I doubt it's the real reason. Or, at least, the main reason.

I reckon it's because you can research everything you need to know about a product before spending your hard earned money.

If you look at the number of threads here in RCU just chatting about the specs of things, you can see we all love to talk about stuff almost as much as buying it.

I have downloaded almost all the manuals for all the models I have looked at, and that must have been a big reason for me to follow through and buy from where I got the manual.

So, it may be the strength of communication and availability of information that does it.

-David C.

Nuker

My LHS supports our club (and not just with small trinkets)
Internet stores, given their broad range, just can't be expected to support the 'local' clubs as much.

My LHS will match internet prices but, strangely, we suggest that they don't always have to. No matter how frugal your budget is, some people (agreeably not everyone) can afford the $5-$10 difference in price for most of the big items, that's the difference most of the time.

That $5-$10 on average buys me a place to talk the hobby, a place to actually see/touch/smell the new stuff, a much easier way to get cross border product as they have a broker already, buys me support for my club, buys me the ability to race out on a Sunday afternoon and pick of a 12.25x3.75 APC prop for a funfly plane that landed just a bit hard.

When warranty work comes into play, it gives me someone who can send directly back to the supplier on my behalf and who will, more often that not, replace on the spot.

The 10% that I do buy through the web have been on the suggestion of my LHS as they couldn't get it in for me quickly or cheaply enough; normally smaller stuff where their large supplier just doesn't handle or a great sale where I'll order some for them as well [8D].

They want the customer to return so they maintain honesty. They won't sell a beginner a GP spitfire plane to learn on. I've even seen the talk a customer down so that instead of spending $700 for what they think they might need, they will spend $400 and get just what they need. True not all LHS's around are like this, just the successful ones I guess

Unfortunately, for the most part, mail order just can't give that to me. I think it's $5-$10 well spent at my LHS.

Bob

Crashem

These threads are my favorite!!!!!

Hobby store closes and its a bad thing the local modelers are responsible for not supportting the LHS Wrong!!!

The owner not out to get rich!!!!!! Bad business move lol

Every business needs to grow or it will die. No owner starts any for profit business without the hope of making a profit, or maybe god forbid getting rich.

Businesses are a risk and it is up to every owner to attract customers...

It is PERFECTLY acceptable for any customer to chose a different supplier.

A realize this might not be the most coherent post... however everytime I see a thread like this there are allways a bunch of guys impling that by not supporting the LHS those people are not during their civic duty... Our economy is based on competition if you can't compete Oh well someone else will.

I don't lament the closing of any business because usually another more competetive is responsible for the demise and as a consumer I usually benefit

Crashem

When I was selling computers 5 years ago a 20% makup on most hardware was unheard off more like 2%-12%

So don't be suprised if I'm not sympathic when I hear you complaining about a 20% markup. And yes I'm familiar with some of your expenses.
If you think modelers a tight trydealing with the purchasing agents of companies... Those guys are so tight that if they sit on a lump of coal out pops a diamond

nascarjoe

Personally, I don't have to sell at a 20% and also don't have to depend on local clubs for support, but what I was saying is that hobby shops which don't have a means to bring in new customers have put themselves in the position of having to depend on one or two clubs for financial support. Even if I did have to sell at a 20% markup, I am pretty sure that I could make it.

I've tried to share my already proven marketing ideas with RCHTA but apparently, they are quite satisfied with the status quo. If there are any hobby shop owners out there who would like to know how to bring in tons of new customers, contact me.
If not, too bad.

Joe Bartholomew
Lighthouse Hobbies
1560 Lockport St.
Olcott, NY 14126
1-716-778-0471

ballgunner

My Feedback: (1)

I read some time ago that you must have a local drawing area of 250,000 population to support a full service LHS and for the owner to receive a living wage.
The nearest LHS to my home is 90 miles away and the tax is 8.6% plus the time and gasoline to drive there on crowded freeways and streets. I can pay the shipping on $100 and still save $1.61 + my time and fuel. Hardly worth the trouble, if the LHS had a very large inventory immediately available, which is unlikely. If I wanted an unstocked item I would still have to wait for the shipping time and unless it was shipped free to the LHS pay the shipping too. We had an LHS whose owner did it as a sideline to his regular business. He tried to scuttle our club by telling all newcomers to join another club of which he was president.
the other club eventually failed and he went out of business and out of town. We inherited another flying site better than what we had. If he had spent as much time and effort on the existing club he would still have the business and support of the club we still have despite the small extra costs. The convenience is worth something, to be able to drive a couple of miles and get one new prop or a roll of covering would make me very likely to support a shop. The people I fly with would be happy to pay a bit more just to have an LHS in town.

rclooney

i would allways go to my lhs. the only time i havent was when i was in a different country. i have several. i would allways use my lhs because they don't ask for a deposit on any order i make anymore. they KNOW that i will pay for what i order. no internet company can trust you like that. i know where the shop is. i have NEVER got any faulty stuff of my lhs. they will allways help. i know that if i did get any faulty stuff they would change it. no fuss. and the best thing. there is allways something new on the shelves for me to waste my money on. i might start using ebay soon as it is a good source for cheap parts that usualy work fine. i am looking at an engine for £30 ish. the price hasnt changed recently and it ends soon.

LeeL

My Feedback: (1)

I guess I am just like the rest of the majority of r/c'ers I support the local hobby shop when the things I need are in stock. this is a recap of the rise and fall of one LHS in my area (keep in mind this is only from my perspective) LHS opened it's doors in Nov. of 2001 they had a great selection of planes, engines, etc. and I purchased aprox. $2,000.00 worth of equipment in the first year and a half. well shortly there after I asked the owner to order me an O.S.160fx he said ok and that it would be there by the next friday, Well friday rolls around and I go to get the motor and it wasnt there, after some of the crowd cleared out he told me he needed me to give him the money before he ordered the motor now keep in mind I have already spent $2,000.00 in his shop. needless to say I was P.O.'ed but I cooled off and continued to buy stuff from him. as the next 6 months unfolded there were many complaints from other club members about him not delivering on items that were supposedly ordered for them. Now he has closed the doors and left the area. Are we sad he's gone yes and no we are sad because the shop was a place many of us went to, to visit and drink coffee together and occasionaly pick up a part we needed. were not sad because we were tired of not being able to get items we needed, and tired of being prommised that an item would be in on a certin date and it would never show up. So any LHS owners that read this take note, you are in a service driven buisseness, Listen to your customers and try to give them what they want. But most important of all be honest with the customer