ELI Kats

My Feedback: (2)

hi,

I would like to consult with you about noise problem we have in our field.
Our field is located about 700 m from a small suburb.
We fly F3A, 3D and sunday fliers. We restricted the models noise to be lower than 94 db, according to FAI regulations. In the weekends we fly from 8:30.

Recently the neighbors started complaining about the noise.

We did some test to find out which planes make the "worst" noise - we found out that small engines, like 46FX, that measure 90 db disturb more than a 140 RX with 93 dB.

We want to find ways to solve the problem by introducing noise limit for each engine type and displacement. Also, we are looking for ways to reduce the noise of small planes.

I would like to learn from other clubs what to do about the noise problem.

Eli Kats

Tmoth4

My Feedback: (1)

We had a neighbor at our club field that was always complaining about the noise and wanted to have us kicked out. One day after I flew my plane and was on my way out he stopped me and asked me what kind of plane I had just flown. It was a giant scale Pup with a Quadra 35 gas engine in it. I expected him to ***** at me about the noise but to my surprise he said he would not mind if all the models sounded like that (my plane was not all that quiet). He said it was the small planes screaming around that he couldn't stand. It seems the bigger engines with lower sound pitch and RPMs are not as offensive as the smaller engines at high RPMs.

Jim

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

i think that once they start b1tching the only way to shut them up is to find another field...

dave

MustangFan

The noise problem is always interesting.

Working in the auto business, I can safely say it is NOT all about the db level.
It is the db level AND the frequency of the noise. Take for example chalk screeching on the blackboard.

We ourselves are just starting to document "noise" problems associated with cars. We have setup a recording system and allow our customers to evaluate the irritation factor, trying to determine what levels and what frequencies are trouble.

Some frequencies even at low levels are annoying ( small high speed engines I would guess).

So .... it's more complicated that one db level fits all.

Is the AMA working on this ??? They should be. Would give them something constructive to do for us. Aren't they supposted to be "promoting" the hobby. ( Sorry ... this is another thread ... and one of my pet peeves with them)

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

We have had to deal with it at both fields. Doesn't seem to matter the Db as much. If they see the planes in the air, they whine. Some people just don't like the fact that you are having fun and they are not. Some have other reasons, like it bugs their dog, who barked all night keeping the neighbors up, but they didn't seem to mind that.

We had one situation where a friend and I both had the same engine and exhaust, but different planes. They yelled about mine because I fly it hard and do 3D, but not his because he just flew straight lines. If you try to bust your tail making is so they won't yell, you will kill the fun in the hobby. I would work with them as much as you can and try to see what they want you to do, but I think you will find that they are not that easy to please.

Try to get a fix, but I would start searching for a new field as well.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

What could the AMA do? You (mustingfan) yourself admit that noise is more subjective than scientific. All they can do is post a hard-and-fast decibel limit that would do nothing to stop the little engines that aren't very loud, but make that high-pitched racket that so many people find "annoying." Just what we need, more meaningless rules.

The AMA cannot be allowed to get into the business of recommending specific products for any purpose. There are just too many opportunities for such a process to be corrupted. It would be a form of "blacklisting" which was illegal the last time I checked.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

stop flying at 8.30, thats damn early, 10am at weekends is pleanty early enough. we're lucky and do 9.30, but no ones there that early!

Tmoth4

My Feedback: (1)

Good point about the starting time. Clubs I have belonged to had no flying before 9AM weekdays and not before 10AM on Sundays.

flicka5

My Feedback: (2)

The AMA went through this issue of noise control back 10 yrs. or more, ago. They have a soft cover "noise" book published that was sent to all AMA Clubs back then.
A copy is probably still available if your club doesn't have one. Anyhow, it is not totally uncontrollable if club members are concerned about losing their flying field.
There is a considerable difference in 2 stroke mufflers depending on the engine brands with older Fox and some Chinese engines such as ASP and others being big noise generators. Four cycle engines are very helpful in reducing total field noise as are bigger props and higher pitches on 2 cycle engines. Speed is also a noise problem particularly when needle valves are adjusted at full lean. Set muffler dB levels at your field and enforce them. Talk to the club members and ask them to use their throttles and not scream around at full throttle during the whole flight. Buy aftermarket mufflers such as sold by Davis Diesel which significantly reduce the engine dB levels. Put the baffles back in your stock mufflers, etc.

Flying fields are hard to come by so don't give in to club members who don't give a rip about the noise they make!

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

4 strokes!!! noisey damn things, hate them running in the pits near me, how anyone thinks they are quiet...

rclooney

i don't care how much noise i make. it doesn't bother me. not being ignorant. its true. if you do somthing realy anoying, your fine with it. if somone else does it, you will get p****d off. i don't mind the noise from my car. i prefer the noise that no pipe gives it. if somone complains, i will try to make it quieter. one way is to fit a muffler 20 times bigger than the engine.

flicka5

My Feedback: (2)

Noise as many have said is " in the ears of the beholder". If four strokes are not perceived to be quieter, then turn up your hearing aide! Has something to do with the no. of cylinder explosions per sec.! One half as many explosions per 100 revolutions as compared to the 2 stroke engines.
I have made some of my 2 strokes so quiet that it is difficult to fly at the same time with others who depend solely on stock mufflers to muffle their engines because I can't tell if my engine is still running, or not? Another solution is to keep your wagon on the ground or is it a lorry?

Hurri

Many flyers say "a lawn mower is louder etc than our models" . One thing we have to remember is that some guys come at say 9 am , others at 10 am , others 11am , on & on . my point is that there is constant noise of models flying till dusk , or can be . Whereas a guy cutting his lawn is out there for a while & it is all finished , so models can be an irritant . Picture living someplace & hearing it going on all day , now you will see why not everyone likes our sound . So let us do our best to quieten things down .
In the Toronto club some 20? years ago we came up with 88db @ 7 meters, the model is held at full throttle & turned & recorded in 4 different directions @ 3 ft above the ground , don't take the average reading, if one position is over then guy cant fly it Many stock mufflers are way over in this test , there are ways to cut noise down , even an add on can help. APC props also cut down noise. This may be a starting point for our Israel friend .

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

nice info guys but i'll stick to what i said in my previous post. even if you go all electric the neighbors will still want you to leave because you ticked them off in the past. so what if you stick to FAI or AMA noise regulations? the second you pi$$ the public off you're as good as gone! in this same area we've got a nice little civilian airport thats on it's way out because of developers building upscale neighborhoods closer and closer to the runway. once the houses start getting too close the best thing to do is find another field, period. in this area there are quite a few flying fields no more than half an hour's drive from one another so giving one up ain't so bad.

by the way, i don't use mufflers on my gassers and my glo engines normally have unmuffled pipes. no complaints because i stay away from populated areas.

dave

Live Wire

DEAD STICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

followed by the sound of shattering window glass??!!

flicka5

My Feedback: (2)

If one doesn't worry about pi$$ing off the neighbors by not using mufflers, think about the health of your own ears and if you will have severe audio nerve damage by the time you pass 50. Have a relative that spent many years skeet shooting without ear protection and now wishes he had! An English RC enthusiast attached:

jcflysrc

My Feedback: (50)

Huh? What's that...speak up!LOL!

goneflyn

There are a lot of good points--and some good solutions--made by everyone here. Unfortunately, I think Zagnut got the closest to the source of the problem....the sound of breaking glass. That is what I think the complainers fear most and causing them to complain. They say it about the noise because that is something they can point to--regardless of how many motorized yard implements they use, that are louder than our engines! I am convinced it is the fear of someone loosing control of a plane and inflicting damage to their property, that causes the majority of the complaints.

One of the first times I remember seeing a RC airplane in a movie, was in (Under Pressure, Charlie Sheen). When I saw that little plane I was delighted. I thought it was so cool that a movie would have a RC plane. I thought it might help the sport by letting peolple see how cool RC really is! Unfortunately, Hollywood misportrayed reality again. Instead of the kids flying the plane realistically, they flew it around the neighborhood--Mom, oblivious to the whole thing of course. As I watched, I became more and more disappointed. Not only were they flying impossibly, but in a VERY unsafe manner. As the music indicated, the inevitable finally happened and it crashed into a window, making the neighbor, irrate--to say the least. It was a terrible blow to me and our hobby/sport. Rather than help our hobby/sport, this short part of the movie, had the potential to do more damage that any club could hope to overcome.

My feeling on the situation is that unless we change the way the general public feels about radio control, there is very little that can be done to save our local flying fields in the long run. As our population and housing increases, they will continue to plague us. If they can restrict airspace around real airports, they can certainly do it to our little fields. It is all too sad, but I fear all too true. But, as always, that's just my opinion. I really hope this one is WRONG!

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

700 metres is a little less than 1/2 mile away. If they are complaining at that distance, I doubt noise is the real problem. I agree the real fear that one of them flying things is gonna come crashing into my kids' bedroom. There isn't much you can do to squelch that fear. Maybe some PR campaigns might help. Invite the neighborhood association to attend a kid's FUN FLY day at the field. Ultimately though, the field is pretty much doom.

BTW, spinning a propeller at full song, just about any RC engine is WAYYY louder than your typical lawncare power tools. I have a digital soundmeter that I used quite often. Much of that noise comes from the propeller. I convert weedie engines to RC use, and I was amazed at how much louder the same engine/muffler became when spinning a propeller. It also doesn't help the noise source is up in the air doing a line-of-sight broadcast instead of on the ground being blocked and deflected by houses and structures.

The PIPE

Dear PhillyBaby:

The PIPE Here again...and I'm someone who HAS to fly early, because of a case of HEATSTROKE that I came down with at an RC field in 1980...thanks to 90ºF plus, 70ºF plus dewpoint weather! I was SICK in bed for two days afterwards and could NOT keep ANYTHING "down" in my stomach but WATER from the nausea the heatstroke had given me...and ever since then, I have found myself UNABLE to function outdoors, in the upper extremes of summertime heat and HUMIDITY that New England summers always seem to have TOO MUCH of...!

So, you can easily see why I am NOT an RCer that would EVER join up with a club that had a LATE morning flight limit of around 9:00 am, let alone the even more LUDICROUS clubs that set a 10:00 am or even LATER morning flight limit...and there ARE some of these "ludicrous" clubs that won't even allow an ELECTRIC plane up until after 10:00 am...can you say "heatstroke" and even MELANOMA to these clubs' members? I just hope they learn the meaning of THOSE two particular medical terms, as any club that is NUTS enough to make their members go OUT in that "near noontime" heat in the summertime could possibly be DOOMING their membership to such maladies later in life, IF their membership chooses to fly during the worst times of summertime tropical weather, even in more "temperate" latitudes!

Luckily for me, if you check at http://www.wingbusters.org/RULESrev3.html and read the TENTH line of text there,. you'll find the main reason I joined the RC club I DO belong to here in New England...a somewhat reasonably EARLY 7:30 am morning flight limit, , that's JUST for "fueled engine" aircraft! And YES, electrics CAN be flown before 7:30 am at my club's field with NO problems whatsoever!

Also, I ONLY fly my models with FOUR STROKE powerplants, and I'm certainly a kind of fellow that CAN make up his own engine mufflers if needed for special applications...though I DO have some desire to get an RC Assist FF Old Timer of mine converted to fly with electric power within the next year or two, and the thought of a Proctor Antic Bipe on electric power just gets my head dancing merrily at night LOL!

And in addition to THAT, I'm also someone, thanks to that danged case of heatstroke nearly a quarter century ago, that IS willing to have a DIFFERENT flying season that runs from September through the WINTER up through late May or early June, just BEFORE it gets too DANGEROUSLY hot for my health. I just LOVE flying off SKIS!

So, sorry to disappoint you, but SOME of us who do NOT do well healthwise in summer weather DO like having an RC club nearby that DOES allow earlier, and MUCH more reasonable, morning flight limits-and my WINGBUSTERS over here in Massachusetts sure DO have them!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!

flicka5

My Feedback: (2)

So who has read the AMA noise guide, anyhow that I mentioned above?

It looks like the Pipe and I agree that 4 strokes help the noise problem.

Our Club has been before the town fathers and also in court battling " irate" neighbors trying to get us out of our RC field. We have won all the battles and one neighbor had to pay one of our members over $500 for damages. So. it is not always hopeless or inevitable that you lose your field. We won under a grandfather clause
basically stating that the neighbors knew we were there before they moved in!

But, all RC'ers have a responsibility to try to minimize the noise. I for one would not want to live next to an RC field where the drone is constant all day and members ignore the noise problems or even exacerbate them by not using mufflers!.

goneflyn

I have read the AMA noise restrictions. Since I nor anyone I know has a db meter, it is tough to tell how well we meet the limits. Like someone said, the prop is a big portion of the noise. I think the four strokes are great too. I have a couple of 2stroke (trainer and combat) but really don't like them.

I really want to get into night flying in the summer. Our field doesn't have any neighbors, but I can now see where it could be a problem for some.

I feel for you PIPE, heat stroke is really bad. I got it when I was a kid, and I still have to be careful. It taught me why people are so apt to die if caught in the desert. I just wanted to sit down and die right there. If I E A S E into summer with gradually increasing exposure, I can do ok, if not, it feels like I am going to die.

flicka5

My Feedback: (2)

Our club has one that costs somewhere around $35 some years back from Radio Shack. Not sure of present costs, but relatively cheap.

Put one of those Fox "Quiet" mufflers on my Fox .74 some years ago and could hardly believe the big reduction in noise. Image below. So, noise reduction is possible with 2 strokes.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

i like the pipe, he dun speak often, but its a good read
sorry you can't fly mid day, here you can and your lucky to find a club with that start time, but theres also the afternoon/evening which as far as i know you can make as much noise as your allowed till about 9pm.

i know 4 strokes are quieter in the air, but you start one of those ear beaters next to me and you'll hear about it.. well, not right then coz it's too bloodly lould to shout at you.
for some reason they have tiny scilencers that when given full throttle in the pits are stupidly lould.

once going the lower prop RPM is what helps them