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3D at your flying field

Old 05-05-2002, 10:42 PM
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T28pilot
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Default 3D at your flying field

what are your flying field rules for 3D flying???

1.) 3D is welcome..

2.) 3D is unwelcome but you let it go on....

3.) 3D is pushed to a certain area....

4.) 3D is not tolerated at all and no one will be allowed to do it....

the reason i posted this pole is because we are having troubles with the older members in our club grumbling about some of the younger members doing some 3d flying......

what is your thoughts?
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Old 05-06-2002, 12:21 AM
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Default 3D at your flying field

As long as those doing the 3D are sensible, there shouldn't be a problem. We only have one guy who can really do it (hover). He doesn't do it over the runway and everyone else just avoids the area where he is. The grumpy old man contingent will complain about ANYTHING new. Our meetings are dominated by the grumblings of this group....and they haven't flown an airplane in years. Oh well.

Bob
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Old 05-06-2002, 01:43 AM
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Default Re: 3D at your flying field

Originally posted by T28pilot
what are your thoughts?

Mike,

You really want to know my thoughts?
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Old 05-06-2002, 01:50 AM
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Default 3D at your flying field

3D is welcomed, but nobody can do it with an airplane that I have seen around here I really love them rolling manuevers!
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Old 05-06-2002, 02:08 AM
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Default 3D at your flying field

T28Pilot - I would like to see the results of your pole. WE are experiencing similiar resistance to 3D flying at our club in IL. I think it's intimidating to some of the members of the club and they may be where the problem begins. Once the members have had time to realize this style of flying is a new acceptable means of one's expression, then it will become more widely accepted. You may even see of few "those" guys joining in on the new fun.

I would appreciate.
Chris C
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Old 05-06-2002, 02:20 AM
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Default Duh Chris ...........

Look where i am From......

remember my T28?

LOL
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Old 05-06-2002, 02:22 AM
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Default Oh wayne.....

Hell ya i want to hear you thoughts.......

Spill the beans.......

Tell'm what is going on!!!!
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Old 05-06-2002, 02:45 AM
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Default 3D at your flying field

Originally posted by sideshow
As long as those doing the 3D are sensible, there shouldn't be a problem. We only have one guy who can really do it (hover). He doesn't do it over the runway and everyone else just avoids the area where he is. The grumpy old man contingent will complain about ANYTHING new. Our meetings are dominated by the grumblings of this group....and they haven't flown an airplane in years. Oh well.

Bob

Well, I think it's the empitome of stupidity to hover an airplane over the runway, inches from your head...

Fact is, I now solicit information from GIANT SCALE meets as to whether or not they have IMAC demonstrations, and if they do, I pass.....
There's a whole gaggle of young'ns growing up believing that hovering a 42% Wizbang inches from their head is somehow Keee-u-eel...

Just plain stupid in my opinion! Anyone notice that it's the same thing over and over ? Frankly, I'm sick of it....

I've been sucessful in banning IMAC demonstrations from our meet this year... We took a vote..the majority would rather see other things...


Dumbos!
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Old 05-06-2002, 02:56 AM
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Default LOL

Originally posted by INJUN_EAR





Just plain stupid in my opinion! Anyone notice that it's the same thing over and over ? Frankly, I'm sick of it....

I've been sucessful in banning IMAC demonstrations from our meet this year... We took a vote..the majority would rather see other things...


Dumbos!
Hmmm you sorta contradicted your self there mister........
The majority would rather see other things???....
That is what this is .....other things.....
At your so called non IMAC demonstrations,....well i think its a refreshing change to see what people can do...instead of watching 42 guys doing the same boring pattern over and over.....
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Old 05-06-2002, 03:26 AM
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Default 3D at your flying field

They just dont like it 'caus they cant do it

I fly at two fields, One hates it, but at the other field, thats all they do!! I would like to practice some more 3D stuff, But unfortunately, I fly more often at the field that hates it.
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Old 05-06-2002, 03:27 AM
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Default 3D at your flying field

Originally posted by INJUN_EAR



Well, I think it's the empitome of stupidity to hover an airplane over the runway, inches from your head...

Fact is, I now solicit information from GIANT SCALE meets as to whether or not they have IMAC demonstrations, and if they do, I pass.....
There's a whole gaggle of young'ns growing up believing that hovering a 42% Wizbang inches from their head is somehow Keee-u-eel...

Just plain stupid in my opinion! Anyone notice that it's the same thing over and over ? Frankly, I'm sick of it....

I've been sucessful in banning IMAC demonstrations from our meet this year... We took a vote..the majority would rather see other things...


Dumbos!
Injun,

While I respect everyones opinion I have a couple questions.

IMAC demonstrations? Isnt IMAC a competition where planes fly a pre-set of turn-around manuevers in several different classes with scale aerobatic planes? Thats what it has been every time I have gone to a meet to compete. Do you mean freestyle demonstrations held during a break within an IMAC meet?
Several years ago before 3D was on the scene I remember seeing Helicopter demos during the breaks at IMAC meets cause it was somewhat new, interstesting and most people werent doing it.

Same thing over and over? Isnt that what IMAC competition is? same sequence over and over flown by differnent pilots?

At the club in question, we have several different styles of flying. 3D being the newest. Most of the grumbling is coming from people who havnt been exposed to it before. Its new, no one was doing it before I joined and some of the members arent sure what to think of it.

As far as the safety issue, Ask yourself what is more dangerous. Someone doing low, inverted high speed passes over the runway with a 1/4 scale or larger plane or a plane that isnt moving over the runway? If I'm 3D'ing and pile it in, its only going to drop from a few feet at a very low airspeed. What would happen if during the inverted pass a servo stripped or a aileron started to flutter...........

We have a guy at our field that does low inverted passes at high speed right over the runway with large planes. He is a superb flyer. Thats his style of flying and I have no problem with that at all. Knowing that, when I see him get ready to fly I dont fly fly. I would rather give him his space he needs to do his style of flying.
And, its fun to watch someone who is so accomplished.

This is the same thing that happened when helicopters came onto the scene several years back. Clubs didnt know how to handle the new type of flying. In the end, most clubs worked it out as I am sure we will at my club with the 3D stuff.
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Old 05-06-2002, 04:15 AM
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Default 3d

I think you ned to add to the Poll, somethignalong the lines of ( 3D is welcome as long as it dosen't interfear with the normal flight patern) 3D stuff is welcome at our field but it is not welcome over the runway when other planes are in the air.

The same guys that don't want 3d at thier field are the same ones who don't want Helicopters , Now you 3D fixed wing guys know how stupid that is.
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Old 05-06-2002, 11:10 AM
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Default 3D at your flying field

dont have that many 3Ders at our field.. but we have some pattern guys...

I acually like to fly when the pattern/aerobatics/3d guys are up because they are all closer to the ground... and I fly my cub so high sometimes im competeing with the gliders for airspace that yellow is sure easy to see on a clear day.
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Old 05-06-2002, 11:52 AM
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Default 3D at your flying field

Originally posted by wgeffon


Injun,

While I respect everyones opinion I have a couple questions.

IMAC demonstrations? Isnt IMAC a competition where planes fly a pre-set of turn-around manuevers in several different classes with scale aerobatic planes? Thats what it has been every time I have gone to a meet to compete. Do you mean freestyle demonstrations held during a break within an IMAC meet?
Several years ago before 3D was on the scene I remember seeing Helicopter demos during the breaks at IMAC meets cause it was somewhat new, interstesting and most people werent doing it.

Same thing over and over? Isnt that what IMAC competition is? same sequence over and over flown by differnent pilots?

At the club in question, we have several different styles of flying. 3D being the newest. Most of the grumbling is coming from people who havnt been exposed to it before. Its new, no one was doing it before I joined and some of the members arent sure what to think of it.

As far as the safety issue, Ask yourself what is more dangerous. Someone doing low, inverted high speed passes over the runway with a 1/4 scale or larger plane or a plane that isnt moving over the runway? If I'm 3D'ing and pile it in, its only going to drop from a few feet at a very low airspeed. What would happen if during the inverted pass a servo stripped or a aileron started to flutter...........

We have a guy at our field that does low inverted passes at high speed right over the runway with large planes. He is a superb flyer. Thats his style of flying and I have no problem with that at all. Knowing that, when I see him get ready to fly I dont fly fly. I would rather give him his space he needs to do his style of flying.
And, its fun to watch someone who is so accomplished.

This is the same thing that happened when helicopters came onto the scene several years back. Clubs didnt know how to handle the new type of flying. In the end, most clubs worked it out as I am sure we will at my club with the 3D stuff.


Yes, I meant freestyle demonstrations..... And yes, there are those guys that will literally hover a couple of feet off the ground with 40% Cap, endangering themself, and their spotter. I see this at one meet I attend every year.....I now belong to the club and actively lobby to ban such manuevers. It's just a matter of time before one of these guys hurts himself.

And hovering a couple of feet from yourself, and the ground isn't skillful, it's plain dumb......How many kids out there will try to mimick what they see?

What I meant by the same thing is the same manuevers, just executed in differing order from one pilot to the next....Waterfalls, then hovering, knife edge......then the next "Free style" demo pilot gets up and does all the same stuff, just in a different order.

And by the way, I'm not the guy that voted "unwelcome". I too perform some of these manuevers, less the hovering in close proximity to my head........

And we welcome heli drivers too.......
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Old 05-06-2002, 12:28 PM
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Default 3D at your flying field

We are welcome, as long as we respect where everyone else is, and be carefull.
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Old 05-06-2002, 05:54 PM
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Default 3D at your flying field

Injun_Ear,

I too respect your right to voice your opinion, but it looks like (based upon the content of your website), that you are trying to start a 3d/warbird flamefight. You mention that it gets boring watching the same maneuvers being performed, just in different ordering. Is that not the same as a typical warbird flight? I would think that just as you find the typical flight of a 3d plane rather boring and monotonous, 3d guys would find a warbird flight to be boring and monotonous. While I am fully aware of the dangers involved with close in flying at low altitudes, an equally dangerous case can be made about the 4 engine b-17 making a simulated low altitude high speed bombing run. Regardless of who or what is flying, a constant danger will exist. Even ControlLine planes have catasrophes.

What it boils down to is TOLERANCE!!! If you do not find that method of flying, then do not participate when those guys are in the air. I thought we were at the field because we enjoyed flying RC planes, I must have missed the memo that said you can only enjoy one method of flying and despise all others, and try to get them banned. I am sure that the pioneers in R/C many moons ago were given much grief when they tried remotely controlling thier planes. I would feel it a safe thing to say that 3d flying is going to be as commonplace as warbird flying, sport flying, helis, and training newbies. Each of the above has it supporters and detractors.

You will find that the more courtesy you give, the more you are apt to get in return.

Steve
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Old 05-06-2002, 06:48 PM
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Default 3D at your flying field

Steve. First, I resent the implication that I'm attempting to "start a Flame fight". I do not come to these forums to "fight".

I have commented on an observation, one being the practice of hovering airplanes in close proximity to ones own head, which I might add is a topic that's been bantered about a few times in modeling magazines.
The gist of the magazine articles was whether or not practices like this are 1) Safe...2) Projecting the wrong image to youngsters.........

I happen to believe that it's a very bad practice, and does indeed project a reckless image to youngsters, not to mention how dangerous it is.

As for my website, I continually update it with photos, and at the moment my CAP isn't shown. The reason it isn't is because, quite frankly, everyone has a CAP these days. I only picture my unique airplanes.....It doesn't mean that I cannot fly an IMAC sequence.

As for the practice at our field, we allow 3D as long as nobody is endangered, and the pilot has adequate skills.....Adequate skills? The advent of the ARF Giant Scale has made available to anyone with the cash access to airplanes they probably shouldn't, or wouldn't have been flying in years past.
That alone is the title, and topic for another lengthy thread.......

I will reiterate my position.... Frankly, one Demo is adequate at most meets, but there are a couple of events where one fellow flying 3D follows another, and so on.
Personally, I think if you've seen one 3D demo, you've seen them all......
Just my opinion.
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Old 05-06-2002, 07:40 PM
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Default 3D at your flying field

Thanks for the clarification on that Injun. I recall the nasty flamewar that was started in the warbird forum about 5 weeks ago, and was afraid that was going to occur again. Those got nasty enough to where the moderators closed the threads, and the 3 subsiquent threads that started after it.

I will agree with you that some people should not be attempting 3d. Shoot, there are some guys who shouldnt even enter the parking lot. As long as there are fat wallets, or more accurately, easy access and high spending limits on credit cards, youre going to have checkbook fliers. But, out of fairness, we all have crashed, we all have flown beyond our limits.

I guess the number of demo flights that are presented would depend on the size and type of the show, and how much "filler" they need between events. It would also depend on how many people are capable of, or volunteer to do a really good demo. At Joe Nall last year, they had something for everyone, Quique did a flight, heli demo, sailplane demo, pattern demo, scale warbird demo, Matt Chapman and a two ship AT6 demo.

I will admit that after spending 2 days at the Joe Nall event last year, it did get a little mundane (as a person who is jumping into 3d, it scares me to say that ). The noise was a lil harsh at times, specially when it turned into a p*ssing contest to see who could do it lower, slower and closer to themselves.

But then you get someone who really knows what they are doing, and can make a 40% plane look as if its a paper airplane. Yuri Haguchi comes to mind, and his flights were almost magical. To watch the finesse that it took for him to execute his maneuvers was an awe inspiring display. That finesse is what drives people into thier favorite form of RC, whether its how to do a perfectly scale flight with a cub or warbird, flaps down, bomb drops, gear down (arresting hook for a carrier plane), and make the perfect landing on the mains with the proper rollout, or taking a funfly to its limit, or wringing out a 3d plane.

Anyone who has been on here for a while read about all the safety concerns I had when there was talk about an RC adventure across America. I expressed great concern, as you did, about people TR'n 2 feet away from thier head, or the guy who catches a plane from a TR. I also spoke about the hard time the AMA had about renewing its insurance, and the effect of preventable claims due to wreckless actions. As for kids seeing it and attempting it, I think the kids would have a shorter learning curve than the rest of us. Growing up on video games and just the faster reflexes attribute to that.

Steve
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Old 05-06-2002, 07:45 PM
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Default 3D

Im sorry, but i couldnt stay out of this one. Injun, i, as everyone else has said, respect your opinion, as it is yours, but i cannot see where you are coming from. Youngsters immatating- how many kids do you know that fly like that? I just turned 18 myself, and have been flying for a couple years. I have not seen, nor really heard of these immitations. I myself would love to get a large 3d airplane, but as with most 18 year olds, money is the key here.
There is a fellow at my club, excellent pilot, and he does almost everything in the book with his 40% CAP. I dont know why you say "its the same thing over and over," every time ive seen him at the field, he does a different routene. So what do you think we should do? Fly trainers around in endless circles for 20 minutes a pop? Im sorry, but to have someone try to restrict how others fly is wrong. Im in control of my airplane, i will fly it how i want. I am a responsible pilot, and im not too humble to say that i am good.

Ed Schurr

PS- try hovering off the ground a few feet up, and you will see what skill is.

**stepping off soap box**
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Old 05-06-2002, 08:31 PM
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Default 3D at your flying field

Originally posted by stevezero
Injun_Ear,

I too respect your right to voice your opinion, but it looks like (based upon the content of your website), that you are trying to start a 3d/warbird flamefight. You mention that it gets boring watching the same maneuvers being performed, just in different ordering. Is that not the same as a typical warbird flight? I would think that just as you find the typical flight of a 3d plane rather boring and monotonous, 3d guys would find a warbird flight to be boring and monotonous. While I am fully aware of the dangers involved with close in flying at low altitudes, an equally dangerous case can be made about the 4 engine b-17 making a simulated low altitude high speed bombing run. Regardless of who or what is flying, a constant danger will exist. Even ControlLine planes have catasrophes.

What it boils down to is TOLERANCE!!! If you do not find that method of flying, then do not participate when those guys are in the air. I thought we were at the field because we enjoyed flying RC planes, I must have missed the memo that said you can only enjoy one method of flying and despise all others, and try to get them banned. I am sure that the pioneers in R/C many moons ago were given much grief when they tried remotely controlling thier planes. I would feel it a safe thing to say that 3d flying is going to be as commonplace as warbird flying, sport flying, helis, and training newbies. Each of the above has it supporters and detractors.

You will find that the more courtesy you give, the more you are apt to get in return.

Steve

Steve,

Well said!
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Old 05-06-2002, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: 3D

Originally posted by Esure
I myself would love to get a large 3d airplane, but as with most 18 year olds, money is the key here.
Ed Schurr

PS- try hovering off the ground a few feet up, and you will see what skill is.

**stepping off soap box**

Ed,

You dont need a large expensive plane to do 3D. Have a look at any of the Morris planes or a Sig SE. Yes a SE will 3D!
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Old 05-06-2002, 09:11 PM
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Default Spit it out people!!!!

I want everyone to be honest......tell me how you feel......

That is why i made this Thread......

I want to get to the bottom of this and have a field for everyone to fly.......

If not i got another field that will do just as good......

Then if that isn't as good i got a Private field that no can say anything about........

But i enjoying frequenting our club....and shooting the **** with everyone in the club...even the grumpy ones.....but i think restricting a "CLUB FIELD" To the whims of the older not so much wiser members is totally wrong....and the so called younger and more talented flyers be pushed off into a corner somewheres is not right.....they pay the same dues as everyone else....

So really people say what is on your minds i really want to hear it!!
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Old 05-06-2002, 11:49 PM
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Default restricting Flight

It looks to me that its all comes down to just some common sense, You shouldn't be doing 3D stuff over the middle of the runway with fixed wing flying the pattern, Same goes for Helicopters. It will also depend on how many are flying, one of the places I fly usually only has 2 or three total pilots and we can take one end of the field to do whatever we want.

I don't understand how anyone can't see hovering only a few feet from your or somebody Else's head is an unnecessary risk and danger no matter how skilled a pilot the chances of malfunction is just great. Same with Helis. I don't see this as a demonstration of skill what so ever, only a demonstration of irresponsibility.

Everybody finds different things entertaining in this hobby and none of it is right or wrong, if seeing the same 3D maneuver is boring but watching the same pattern flight over and over again is not them so be it, but fortunately in most cases Majority rules in our hobby, but not always. Most people fine Turbines and jets fascinating but after seeing one or two fly it was not any more interesting to me than watching any other type, I love aircraft from Airplanes to Zeppelins but to each their own.
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Old 05-07-2002, 12:06 AM
  #24  
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Default Re: restricting Flight

Originally posted by Dave Bowles
You shouldn't be doing 3D stuff over the middle of the runway with fixed wing flying the pattern,
At the club in question we have an unusual layout for runways. The field is "L" shaped. On a day with light winds there is plenty of room for an instructor to have a trainer in the air using one side of the field for touch and goes and still have the other half of the runway useable for 3D. The planes are seperated by at least 100 yards.
At most fields I have flown at you have one strip with a choice to land left to right or right to left. At those fields I agree its not very polite to 3D over the runway with other non 3D planes in the air when thats the only place someone can takeoff or land. If no one else is in the air, I feel you should be able to do what you want, where you want.
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Old 05-07-2002, 05:01 AM
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Default disginated Areas

If there are provisions for doing differant types of flying thats great, One of our fields has 2 north/ south runways and one east/ west so there is room for just about anything. But the others have only one strip and if you are the only one up them the sky is yours as long as safty is still observed.
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