RCJake-rcu

My Feedback: (7)

I have flown at many different clubs across the USA and have never seen a club that allowed starting the airplane engines in the pits, until I joined the club I am a member of now. When trying to make a rule to only allow starting the engines at the flight line, I was met with much resistance from the older members who say that it is too far to carry their flight box (another 15' to 20') and they feel unsafe starting the engines that close to the flying. There is a 2' safety fence on both sides of the five starting stations and we are willing to raise to 4', so it is not like there is no protection there.

To me, it is not very safe having engines starting up behind me while I am flying, worrying about a high revving prop breaking and come flying into my back or a plane coming loose from the holder and run into me while I am flying. Not to mention the noise coming from behind your back while you are trying to hear your and four other airplanes in the air. Also, there are visitors that wander in the pits sometimes with children or pets and they have no idea what damage a prop can cause.

This club has over 300 members, so you can understand my concerns, It gets kind of busy sometimes...

Does your club allow starting the engines in the pits? What are your thoughts???

GrnBrt

My Feedback: (5)

I'm gonna Linda you said that!!!!!!!![>:]

RCJake-rcu

My Feedback: (7)

"I'm gonna Linda you said that"?

Art, are you reverting to infant talk???


:^)

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

The way our field is set up, it would be difficult if not impossible to start engines on the flightline. (The pits very nearly are the flightline.)

In my eight years there, it's never caused a problem, but our club is only about 125 members.
Dennis-

trioval00

My Feedback: (17)

the two clubs i belong to are about 50 members each, in the clubs, we do start them in the pits, it is safer for the pilots that way. for the large aircraft, most of the time, our spotter carries the plane out to the flight line, or we at a slow pace taxi out to the flight line, but we DO NOT taxi back into the pits

we feel it is safer for the pilot starting his plane in the pits, this way he does not have to worry about other pilots taking off or landing near them

mark

FOD MAN

At mine we feel it is safer to start in the pit instead of having two people at the flightline (per plane) trying to start a stubbern plane or addjusting a carb. we think that it creates more problems than it solves by haveing more people on the flightline. people should not be in the pit's if they are not working, starting or preflighting a plane.also it is not very safe to have planes fly over you as you are looking down while starting a plane. kind of cut's both way's dont it. if we overload on the rules someone will insist that we start wearing helmet's and body armor[8D]

augiep38

My Feedback: (3)

There is no way I would start up next to our flightline. As it stands now, there are only a handful that can land on the runway with precision.

I hate to see some one trying to run an engine in in the pits or tune and tune a stubborn engine, but other than that I don't care.

Todd

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Starting in the pits doesn't seem to be a problem, but I would be a lot more concerned that there are spectators in the pits.

ballgunner

My Feedback: (1)

Not really a fair question. No alternative just a yes or no. Location of the pits and safety barriers have a bearing. Is there a safe place near the flight line to start and tune engines ? Will an aircraft and pilot/spotter distract a pilot taking off or landing ? We have tables with built in restraints to allow engines to be started "in the pits". No one on the ground because you can stand upright by the tables. 30 ft. to the pilot stations which are defined by safety netting about 3 1/2 ft. high. Pilot stations 10 -12 ft. from the runway. No breaking in engines at the field unless you bring your own setup and move behind the shed and canopy well away from the pits. It may not be perfect but it works.

Mike in DC

I belong to two fairly large clubs, both probably over 200 members.

Club 1: Set up very close to AMA minimum standards. No rule on where you can start engines. There is an asphalt apron off the middle of the runway which is a nice spot to start your engine, and then a 20 foot asphalt taxi to the runway. I'd say about 1/2 the pilots do that. The others (and me) start their engine in the pits (either on the ground or on the tables) and carry them to the flight line (a short distance). Most of the big planes start in the pits, and taxi to the runway, but, again, it's a short distance.

Club 2: It's probably 100 feet from the pits to the runway, and there's no nice spot to start your engine near the runway. Everybody (except pylon racers) start their engines in the pits, and taxi or carry to the runway. There's a line about 2/3 the way from the runway to the pits and you cannot taxi back to the pits beyond that line (that's the only rule concerning this issue). However, the "pits" is a rather large area, and most folks start their planes on the ground.

Interestingly, in 5 years or so of flying (plus my buddy's 25 years), I've never heard this issue discussed, so apparently it's not a big deal around here.

dr_wogz

My Feedback: (3)

We typically start, tune amd prepare in the pits. We then HOLD ONTO our plane as we push it to the flight line / taxi-way for treh runway.

Although we are supposed to have a firm hold on our planes at all times (either by a cord around the tail while starting, a 'U' type hook device, or by teh spotter holding while teh start / tuning process) there are the one or two who feel superior enough to remotely taxi their plane to the flight line.

Engine is usually (always) killed after landing. the plane is then pushed or carried back thtohe pits.

We also have a few rope fences blockign the pits formt eh runway / flight line.

We also uinsist that visitors sit on the benches provided, outside teh pit area.

Attached are a few shots detailing our 'pits' area..

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

As I have said many times here come visit Sepulvada Basin. The run way is over 200 feet from the pits and the common practice is to start your plane, taxi out of the pits, fly and taxi back to the pits shutting off the engine when it rolls up to your flight box.

I have seen run-a-way planes in the pits, been hit by a flying spinner, seen planes deadstick into the pits, you name it we have it. It's more annoying to have someone breaking in an engine at the tuning stations when we have nice break-in stands with tiedowns out of earshot.

I'd rather they start in the pits then out at the flight line where they'd be at the edge of the run way, just pick which situation you think is more dangerous. The worst is when the try and restart or tune at the edge of the run way. People in this hobby really have tunnel vision when it comes to retrieving a plane or adjusting it and ignoring everyone else (I'm occasionally guilty as well). So the fewer people diddleing around near the flying planes the better, do that in the pits.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

i love our simple life here...
1. decide where pits are depending on the wind
2. dump all your gear down
3. get the peg, make everything ready
4. start the plane, with or without a group of people around you
5. carry the plane or taxi holding it if it's that big to the patch
6. taxi to the edge of the patch if you can, or carry it over there
7. take off
8. have fun
9. call landing
10. land
11. shut down
12. walk back to pits
13. do it again.

sub rules for quickies ( esp my GRRT which you cant leave running on the ground for long or it cooks )

14. start the plane
15. get closer to the patch on the upwind side
16. throw

Shortman

My Feedback: (21)

My club has around 250-300 members and we choose to start it either on the side of the pits or inside.

Typically the big planes are started on the flightline as they are simple and less fussy.


Steve

Azcat59

Well, I can't resist getting my oar in the water here. I am one of the "older members" at the club in question, in fact I am one of the founding members of this club. Let me set the facts first. We have a 75' x 600' asphalt runway, with safety fence along the flight line, and five flight stations, which include a barrier between the "gate" from the runway to the pit area. Then there is at least 20-25' of cheaper "dust control" asphalt between the flight stations and the actual pit area. The pit area is a long "sidewalk" of concrete 4-5' wide. There is another 20' or so between this pit area and the ramada and seating areas.

For some twenty years we started our planes on the concrete pit pads, with the tails pointed toward the flight lines. Rules did not permit lengthy tuning or break-in of engines in the pit area, a special bunker exists in the parking lot for this purpose. Taxiing to or from the pits was prohibited. The standard procedure was to start the engine, and your buddy would carry the plane to the flight station. After flying, the engine was shut down and the plane carried, or rolled, back to the pit area. These procedures served us well for the twenty years of our operation when we grew from 43 guys that met in the desert to start this club to the 300 we have now. And we have had basically safe operations with these procedures.

One of the downsides we see to starting the engines at the flight line is that you have your back to the line, you are very focused, along with your pit crew, on what you are doing (or you better be, with that buzz saw starting up on the front of your plane), and you are a sitting duck for all the student pilots, or others, in an out-of-control takeoff or landing. In addition, the flight stations are becoming an oily, slippery mess, and the nitro will eventually degrade the asphalt, whereas it simply evaporates on the concrete pit pad area. And equipment does have to be carried back and forth, and is sometimes left to clutter up the flight station area.

I have flown at contest at various sites, including both of the Las Vegas TOC sites, and there was no prohibition to starting engines away from the flight line.

Sorry for this long dissertation, but some of the long-time members of this successful club feel this is one of these classic cases where some newcomers decide the club doesn't run according to their wishes, and force through some unpopular changes.

Clair Sieverling
AMA 15654

Azcat59

As a "PS" to my post above, let me mention the original post's comments that he might get a prop in the back or a plane would run into him from the pits.....this would require some imaginative changes in the laws of physics inasmuch as the planes were always started in the pits with the tails towards the flight line.....

I just happen to have a picture of our field that someone took with me and my Corsair...I am standing on the edge of the concrete pit area in the foreground. A pilot station is visible in the left rear background.

Clair

Azcat59

Try the pic again, Clair....

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

special bunker exists in the parking lot for this purpose:

JEZZ! a club fall out sheter

BobbyRichardson

We start in the pits but, we try to exercise caution. I don't think I would feel comfortable on the flight line. By the way that a GREAT looking field.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Hey Jake,
You said you have flown at many clubs and never seen one where you could start in the pits. How many clubs is that since the poll shows that chances are good you would have at least seen it once. Isn't it really an issue of trading one set of dangers for another?

Highflyer

My club consists of about 23 or 24 members as of now and we are flying from a grass strip, so there is really no other place to start except on the runway which would be way too dangerous. Although I do agree that for a large airfield with a definate pit area and a definate runway etc. members should not start their engines in the pits because at that large of a field, there would be just too many people all around to do so safely.
At our field most people shut off their engines when they land on the runway and carry back their plane to the pits, but it does make me very nervous when someone taxis their plane into the pits and then whip it around facing the runway so that they don't have to carry it themselves. Just too many things could go wrong in this situation.

azsundevil

Hey Jake

It sounds like you are over dramatizing the situation to further a cause than a real concern. I am aware of the flying field you are discussing and the idea of "a prop flying off and hitting you in the back" is probable not going to happen since the planes were pointed in the opposite direction of the flight line. Anyone who has been around airplanes knows that the prop and spinner is most likely going to spin off during startup because of the electric starter torque and the energy from that happenstance will dissipate within a few feet. In my 23 yrs of flying I have never seen a prop fly off after startup during a normal engine run. Maybe teaching engine safety is a more viable solution than driving a wedge in your club membership. If the club was founded by experience pilots and builders and the system has been working fine for 20 plus years, than why are you fixing something that is not broke? We all have a responsibility to ensure the pit area in any club is safe and free of spectators when starting an engine. However starting an engine on the flight line where the pit crew is focused on the startup is a recipe for disaster. How many beginner have fed in the wrong rudder during takeoff ? From visiting the field, I also know that the club provides an engine test stand area to break in new engines away from the flying activity and spectators. If the original startup procedures have been working properly, than what is the real problem?

Get back to having fun and leave the politics to Washington.

azsundevil

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Sundevil,
FYI, lean out a 4 stroke and they may backfire throwing a prop. I got hit in the arm with a spinner 2 months ago from that scenerio and it took off some skin. I still agree with the rest of your statement and think your trading one set of dangers for another with no real benefit. The statements in the original post do not add up and it seems there is more going on than is being stated here.

azsundevil

Basinbum

Sorry about the loss of skin...4 strokes are a different animal...but better a little loss of skin than a 4 to 6 lb airplane into the startup crew on the flight line. Thanks for the note

azsundevil

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

spinners made of Crapite ( tm ) are well known here to explode.