Low Wing

My Feedback: (1)

A guy at our field was hovering his profile about 70 feet off the ground all by his lonesome when another guy with a high wing take's off come's around and nails him BAM...Ok' now a little history, the day before the guy with the (highwing) was flying a 300 extra and lost control and crashed into the tree's...he was sure he got a hit...alright' it just so happens the guy he crashed into the next day (pro-file guy) had a radio the day before (when the 300 crashed) in his car on the same channel (36) ok' back to the mid air... on the way out to the crash scraps the guy with the high wing doesn't even say he's sorry...Now I know for a fact the pro-file dude did not turn on that channel 36 radio (I was there) it really looks to me this mid air was mis-guided revenge...wa-cha-think...I know it is real hard to nail a guy in the air, but we can get lucky...

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

Well, it IS real hard to hit another plane intentionally, and I certainly hope someone wouldn't do something like that, but people being people....
Dennis-

branded

My Feedback: (9)

Ditto. One time we had helium balloons anchored to the ground from the runway. It was the better part of the morning before anyone even came close to one.

There's no way somebody can intentionally midair regardless of what the motive.[8D]

depfife

My Feedback: (14)

Intentionally damaging another's property is not only wrong it is criminal. With the information you (and now we) have, it is impossible to know if this was an intentional act or an accident. Hopefully it was an accident.

Eric

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

It doesn't sound like the guy could hit the side of a barn let alone a hovering plane 70 feet high. We fly full contact combat and it is really really hard to hit another plane.

There was no need for the guy to apologize since in my opinion midairs are a no fault proposition.

People that crash and imediatley blame a radio hit are usually either inexperienced or unable to except responsibility. A transmitter with the antena down and in a car is highly unlikley to cause RFI. Pilot error, mechanical and electrical failure are far more frequent yet you always hear someone yell radio hit. My favorite is an Extra, Edge or any other aerobatic design getting to much elevator and augering in and then the clueless pilot yells radio hit, seen it 4 or 5 times.

runover1

My Feedback: (10)

heck, I have hard enough of a time hitting the runway, let alone a plane hovering. Although, unintentionally, I hit some poser lines one day and the plane flipped and did a 360* roll and I saved it even though it dived to the point where I could no longer see it. Heck, I have even pulled twigs out of my elevator seeing how low I could take a flat spin. I think a lot of times, it is just luck. Still, there is no reason to be rude.

Cyclic Hardover

My Feedback: (3)

Our field is owned and maintained by the City. A few years ago we submitted 7 basic rules which they adopted and we enforce to this day. One of these is "No Aerobatics over the runway area." This means if you are doing any 3D stuff over the runway. You are automatically at fault if there is an accident. No downwind flying over the runway also.
The runway is for takeoffs and landings, Touch and goes or a flyby but no screwing around by hanging in the middle of it. You want to do some 3D then go out a lttle ways and do it their but not directly over the runway. Also Helicopter pilots fall under this rule. You hover over the runway and you get nailed, its the helicopter pilots fault.

BaronSchwab

Ya helis are always at fault.

Mike in DC

I might get flamed for this, but I believe this is a myth, perhaps based on one particular idea of what hitting another plane intentionally means. Yes, I would say if you have two .40-sized planes flying level and pretty fast, coming at each other from opposite ends of the field, it would be difficult to make contact. However, it's not difficult to fly under a slow-moving plane going the same direction, and just hit up elevator at the right time to make contact. I have done this myself, and I am far from a expert flyer. To hit a plane hovering 70 feet above the runway would be a piece of cake, given that it's not moving, and it's presenting a huge target (much bigger than a balloon). I don't see this as much more difficult than putting a plane down on the centerline of the runway at the runway midpoint, which most accomplished flyers can do routinely.

My guess, based obviously on just this one report, is that it probably WAS intentional, or at least hostile (maybe the pilot believed the myth and was just "buzzing" the hoverer). If I don't have a spotter, and someone's doing slow stuff at 70 feet, then I would stay up around 200 feet. That just seems common courtesy. It's also common sense, given that it's almost random which plane suffers the most in a mid-air. If you do have a spotter, then there's really no excuse for getting close to other airplanes.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Mike,
We have been flying full contact combat and let me tell you it is extremely hard to hit a plane. We had one guy bring a foam pizza box and hover with five planes trying to hit him and it took me about ten passes before I finally nailed him. Several of the guys that I fly with fly turbines and are very good pilots and they still have a hard time hitting something up in the air.

The centerline of the run way is easy because you can judge the distance, an object up in the air has no reference points to aid you. Many times we think we were real close and someone from another angle will tell us we were 30 feet apart, you can only see two dimensions and the third one is just a guess.

From the original description of the pilot he does not seem that experienced and his periphiral vision probably did not even have the other plane in view untill it was to late.

BTW, anyone reading this is welcome to come on out to our field and join us. Any plane & engine, no rules, no scoring, kill or be killed and it is a lot of fun. We average 5 planes in the air per round, Wednesdays and weekends, SPAD's of course are the most common.

ballgunner

My Feedback: (1)

In a place that will be left unmentioned there were once two pilots who decided to get rid of a couple of worn out aircraft by staging a head on mid air. The way I heard the story it took nearly 50 passes before they accomplished the deed. More or less supports the contention of BasinBum that the third dimension is wrapped up in depth perception. I blinked when he said we only see in two dimensions but aside from depth perception he is basically correct.

Low Wing

My Feedback: (1)

Ok' I'm willing to bet any of you guy's I could hit your pro-file airplane if it was hovering 70 feet off the ground...I'll bet $100...I have come in and hit target's on the run way easy and Yes' I believe it is a myth (combat gang) whoever started it, that it is unlikely to hit another plane...It's just not something we do...remember' he was hovering...cake walk baby...

David Cutler

Hi Ballgunner,

I think you'll find Basin Bum is absolutely right. Even assuming you can get two of the dimensions right, (and that, itself, is extremely unlikely) the third, i.e. depth, can only be perceived by one or more of three things:-

1/ Size comparison with some other object in view at the same time as the model is in sight.

2/ Size comparison with a remembered size of the model.

3/ Stereo vision from the angle of the eyes.

The first above isn't relevant, as there isn't anything else in sight as the model approaches the hovering one. The second one above is extremely difficult to achieve, as the mind is notoriously bad at remembering size (just as well really!!!). The third isn't relevant as the model is too far away and stereo vision fails when the eyes approach being parallel, which is the case when something is so far away.

Put it this way, if, on one pass, the person DID manage to hit his friend's plane he should given a medal for being a truly unique (or lucky!) human being!

-David C.

David Cutler

I'd be willing to bet you! It probably isn't possible to arrange though!

Remember, if the plane is hovering at 70 feet, it will be well over 100 feet from the pilot. One percent error either way would put you one foot away which is enough to miss. Can you really fly 99% accurately, when lining up with something in the corner of your eye?

If so, try flying under a rope two feet off the ground, between two marks two feet apart on the rope.

Not possible without a lot of luck!

-David C.

p.s. I just thought . . Not only would you have to be accurate one part in one hundred in one of the three dimensions, you would have to be that accurate in all three dimensions AT THE SAME TIME! Thats accuracy of one part in one million (100x100x100) to get within one foot of the target!

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

David,
I think it is a little easier than that after all, we do manage to make contact occasionally.

Low Wing,
I and several of the boys out at the Basin would happily take that bet, we are a very sporting bunch. Your profile says USA, if that's anywhere near L.A. come on down and put your money where your mouth is.

Ballgunner,
Why the secrecy of the location, afraid the AMA police will pay you a visit? Occasionally someone will call out a run way pass left to right daring anyone to go right to left. We have yet to have a head on and it ain't for lack of trying.

physics_nut

Well, if you fly over yourself, and are looking at the tail of your plane as it flies away, it becomes a lot easier to hit objects. I agree, hitting things when moving from side to side is tough, and intentional midairs between flying planes is really tough. But personally I think that if you're flying the plane away from yourself and towards something, it's easier. At least it worked that way for us when going for the balloons on the runway.

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

Well of course it's easier. If you're looking at your plane from the rear, flying away from you, you have two of the three dimensions fairly well in sight. It's easy to line up on the target both horizontally and vertically. Having done that, if you simply maintain that heading, then the third dimension takes care of itself (distance), all you need to do is suffer the fourth dimension (time).

BB,
If that "bet" ever comes to fruition, be sure you specify the conditions, ie. low wing must be flying left to right or vice versa, not straight out!
Dennis-

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Everyone flying at the field is responcible for avoiding mid airs. There were two planes involved, both could have done something. Sounds to me like a clear case of wooooopsss. Its all part of the fun of flying. No one at fault in my opinion. They can throw blame, but making it stick would be pretty tough.

Mike in DC

David, I don't agree with your math. First, Basin Bum said it only took him 10 passes to nail a hovering pizza box, so we know it's nowhere near one in a million, since I assume the plane in question was a lot bigger than a pizza box.

We all agree that flying at the same height is not a problem. To hit the hovering plane, you've got at least a 4 or 5 foot target in height, not hard for a good pilot at 70 feet. The second dimension, horizontal, is not a problem, since your attacking plane flies through all the horizontal coordinates. The only problem, then, is depth perception. I am quite sure that if you set up a scientific experiment where you controlled the depth of your object, and the goal was to adjust it so it was right next to an object 100 feet away, almost everybody would get within a couple feet. If both your plane and the hovering plane have 5' wingspan, you can be off by 5 feet plus or minus. So, any human can do the perception thing. The only skill left then, is can you fly the airplane where you want it? The solution to that is to slow down. I'm not saying you'd hit it every time, just that the conventional wisdom of mid-airs being so difficult doesn't apply when one plane is hovering above the runway. I just don't think it would take all that much luck for a hostile pilot to hit a hovering plane (still haven't heard how big it was) on the first try.

p.s. Thank you Low Wing! I didn't think anybody would come to my defense!

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Let me say for the record I WAS LUCKY. There were four others in the air attempting the same thing. Instead of looping around him I made long runs at him to line up better but I was surprised that I got him so soon.

Mike, why don't you try it with a balloon? Not running straight at it but flying the plane perpendicular to yourself and then get back to us on how easy it is. I bet it'll change your perception of the accuracy of your depth perception.

Mike in DC

Sure! I love a science experiment! Not sure how soon I can set this up, I suspect the weather is nicer where you are...

ballgunner

My Feedback: (1)

Back in the days of WWII There was a pre-qualification test for would be pilots. There was a box with two upright sticks on sliding tracks each attached to a separate string that extended
from the from the front of the box for about four feet. Sitting in a chair the prospective cadet
was required to align the sticks to a side by side position to test his depth perception. That little gadget kept a lot of aspiring airplane drivers out of the air. I don't remember how far into the program this went on. I think that trying to hit another aircraft, even though it's hovering would be approximately the same. By the way a lot of cadets did pass the test. A midair could be either luck or skill. Can't tell from here.

Low Wing

My Feedback: (1)

Hey think about this...I never said the guy that hit the pro-file couldn't miss...Lee Harvey Oswald might have killed JFK in 63...Half the reason for the conspiracy stuff is the un-likely chance that someone/anyone could have made those shot's...My point is when you aim a r/c model at another r/c model you could make contact...Ok' he got lucky, dang lucky... the thing is he was (in my opinion) trying to make contact and (what do you know) BAM!!! that's my smoking gun on this subject...It's intent...

mars

I find it hard to believe that someone would tryand succeed on the frist attempt. I do believe that accidents do happen. I have only been involved in 1 balsa contact. My plane was totaled.

I have spent ALOT of time flying combat gliders, and even when we have 10 birds up its still tough. The way to intentional hit someone is to stock them and pounce on them in a turn or wait for a mistake.

Yes high speed mid airs do happen, but it is really, really hard to try to make them happen.
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BobbyRichardson

My $100.00 on low wing hitting the hovering plane