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ARF's are KING!!!!

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Old 07-21-2002, 10:35 PM
  #1  
Geistware
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

I just returned from the IMAC Nationals.
As of Saturday, the two leading planes in the unlimited catagory were ARF's. A guy from Arizona flying a Radiocraft Extra 40% and Mike McConnville flying a new 40% Biplane.

So I guess builders are needed when you want to have something unique, but as far as quality and capability, ARF's have arrived!!!


......wait...... let me get my flame suit on!!! ....
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Old 07-21-2002, 10:40 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

I think spreading things like this is cruel. Shame on you
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Old 07-21-2002, 10:46 PM
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Default OK GEISTWARE THATS IT!! ME YOU & THE FERRET'S, RIGHT NOW

LOL I'm sure there are lot's of well built ARF's, like everything a person can purchase. There are your top-end, middle of the road and the bottom of the barrel. It's just a guess, but doesn't price dictate what you get in an ARF, or are there some real dog's out there?
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Old 07-21-2002, 11:57 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

I covered a RadioCraft for a friend - I don't think I can do work that well and I've built about 30 planes in the past 3 years.

The only problem I saw was that the control surfaces weren't scale sized, so doing a covering job involved a lot of guestimation about where to put the accents.

However, I'd consider this more of an ARC than an ARF in that there is a couple of weeks of evenings involved just getting it ready for the hardware.

Would I like one? Well, not my cup of tea, but certainly made me more aware of how precise things can be.
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Old 07-22-2002, 01:09 AM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

I checked with a friend and the Radiocraft was being flown by Bill Hemple (sp). I have never heard of him but I will say that he is only one of 4 guys that I would say could out fly Mike McConnville.
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Old 07-22-2002, 02:44 PM
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Default Arf's are King!

Keep dreaming! ROFLMAO!

Here's just a sampling of the quality of your lovable BARF's

About 2 min into the flight, elevator came out of the tail! Needless to say, the plane is a total loss. On further inspection, the elevator and hinges came out of the stab, clean! Obviously, not enough glue used in assembly.

I was taking her easy on it's maiden voyage, when all of a sudden, we all heard "POP". It then started going all crazy on me, I managed to turn it around and try for the field, to no avail. Full left aileron wouldn't keep it from rolling right. I got it about 5 feet off the runway, and the thing dropped. Ripped the gear out, and the wing is now in 2 pieces. The "pop" we heard was the wing failing in flight, under some pressure. After seeing inside the wing, it's a wonder this thing made it out of the basement, without falling apart. There's no glue on any rib, shear web, or spar, from #2 outward. The only thing holding it together was the covering. I've got a message off to Horizon, but I get nothing.....Let's see how there customer support is now.

I've finally started to assemble my Hanger 9 1/4-scale Cap 232. Never mind the cowl clearance, the wing leading edge area does not fit along side of the fusilage. I've already installed the extra 1/8 ply rib and it still doesn't fit -- barely. It appears the gap in the leading edge is not square to the mounting plate and is off by about 1/16th of an inch. This turns into about an 1/8th inch gap in the center of the wing


i set my cg to 4 1/4 inches to start. but i had to add a ton of weight to the front. and now the plane weighs 14 lbs. 3 oz. this sounds heavy as compared to my hanger nine caps.

I used a 4 stroke for power and a Higley heavy hub up front for the prop. I still had to add 1 1/4 lbs of weight to get to balance. The final weight came out at just over 7 lbs...it advertised 5-6 lbs on the box.

Before i flew mine, i noticed that the engine firewall has 2+ degrees of up thrust. I notified great planes and they said it is "designed in the airplane"......BULL!!! When i flew the plane ,it required 24 clicks of down trim to get it to fly level.

it doesnt even have real covering, it bubbles VERY easy.... the covering is "STICK ON" covering.

if you buy any of their arf's make sure you epoxy the plywood behind the engine mount !..my first day out i went to tourqe start it and the firewall poped back.......

The firewalls are junk and warped like shoehorns. The hardware is junk.
The supplied spinner is sub-standard.
On a scale from 1 to 5, (5 being perfect) the cowl is a 2
It looks good from the outside after a lot of work to the inside.

In my opinion the elevators are built too heavy! the trailing edge is solid hard balsa and is about an inch wide! Its so hard you can't even press your finger nail into it. Also the control surfaces are not double beveled! And they need to be! Its a 3-D plane for goodness sakes. Also the landing gear is week and will rip out on an easy landing! Easy fix and most arf's have this problem although they are getting better! Also the hardware is junk
You've come a long way baby...

But you've got an even LONGER way to go!!!
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Old 07-22-2002, 02:58 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

ARFs will rule the world :bananahea
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Old 07-22-2002, 04:01 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

MinnFlyer,
I don't have to dream. Just go to Muncie and see the end results! I am curious though. I looked at your quotes and wonder if some of the issues were not due to it being an ARF but the plane's final assembly. I know I am a poor builder and I know that most ARF's are built better than I could build them. If I can demonstrate competency with my hobby with something that was manufactured in stead of created, I will take it!

This can happen to any plane if the hinges are not pinned or securely attached to the stab or wing.
About 2 min into the flight, elevator came out of the tail! Needless to say, the plane is a total loss. On further inspection, the elevator and hinges came out of the stab, clean! Obviously, not enough glue used in assembly.
I am curious what engine and propeller was being used. I have seen an ARF disintegrate in flight from someone using a 18x12 propeller with a 3.2 gas engine on a 1/4 scale model. The wing could not handle the stress of the airspeed. While this case was only the 8-10th flight, it was slow and easy at full throttle.
I was taking her easy on it's maiden voyage, when all of a sudden, we all heard "POP". It then started going all crazy on me, I managed to turn it around and try for the field, to no avail. Full left aileron wouldn't keep it from rolling right. I got it about 5 feet off the runway, and the thing dropped. Ripped the gear out, and the wing is now in 2 pieces. The "pop" we heard was the wing failing in flight, under some pressure. After seeing inside the wing, it's a wonder this thing made it out of the basement, without falling apart. There's no glue on any rib, shear web, or spar, from #2 outward. The only thing holding it together was the covering. I've got a message off to Horizon, but I get nothing.....Let's see how there customer support is now.

I wonder how the tail assemble was put together. was extra material added to strengthen the assembly? Were the servos moved to the tail and the original version had the stab servos under the wing. This happened to me with my CGB Sukhoi. The servos were in the tail and I had a ton of weight in the nose. Once I found that I could fly with over 1/2 of AFT balance, I began removing the weight. Over 8 oz in all.
i set my cg to 4 1/4 inches to start. but i had to add a ton of weight to the front. and now the plane weighs 14 lbs. 3 oz. this sounds heavy as compared to my hanger nine caps.

I used a 4 stroke for power and a Higley heavy hub up front for the prop. I still had to add 1 1/4 lbs of weight to get to balance. The final weight came out at just over 7 lbs...it advertised 5-6 lbs on the box.
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Old 07-22-2002, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: ARF's are KING!!!!

I guess ARFs are King ... if you're a Queen .
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Old 07-22-2002, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Re: ARF's are KING!!!!

Originally posted by Jim_McIntyre
I guess ARFs are King ... if you're a Queen .
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Old 07-22-2002, 07:08 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

Hmmnn.. that statement could be be mis-interpreted.

Let me be clear, I don't like ARFs....
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:59 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

My big gripe with BARF's is that you get what you pay for. Take, for example, a $100 kit. Add wheels, tank, covering, etc. and you have $200 in it. So you can buy the same thing in an ARF version for the same $200, and all you have to do is glue the wings together and glue on the tail feathers. So, where did the company make money on the deal? Did they build it for you for free? If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. They save money by cutting down on quality. My dad is 82 years old and flies every day. He gets bored with his planes, and every now and then he sees an ARF that catches his eye and decides to get it so he doesn't have to waist time building. And EVERY time he does it, (4 at last count) he swears he will never do it again. I saw his latest attempt. It is a Kyosho Pitts Special that cost $230. The interplane struts on this thing are made of SHEET METAL! and they are held on with 1 "L" bracket on top and bottom. WHAT CRAP!!!!

Believe me, NOBODY is going to build you a quality airplane and not charge you out the butt for it. Kits are so well engineered now days that they practically fall together. All you need is a little patience, and maybe have a friend come over to help out now and then until you get to know what you're doing. Without these basic skills, what do you do when repairs are needed? Do you go out and buy a whole roll of covering just to make a patch job? Flying BARF's is akin to these kids who grew up with computers and now they don't know how to make change unless the cash register tell them exactly how much money to give me.

Sorry, I'm ranting again. (AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHH)
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:01 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

PS... Jim, I like your statement just the way I interpreted it! LOL
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Old 07-23-2002, 01:27 AM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

Originally posted by MinnFlyer
My dad is 82 years old and flies every day. He gets bored with his planes, and every now and then he sees an ARF that catches his eye and decides to get it so he doesn't have to waist time building. And EVERY time he does it, (4 at last count) he swears he will never do it again. I saw his latest attempt. It is a Kyosho Pitts Special that cost $230. The interplane struts on this thing are made of SHEET METAL! and they are held on with 1 "L" bracket on top and bottom. WHAT CRAP!!!!

What crap indeed! I have a friend who is not at all gentle with the very same plane, and the struts are holding up quite well. I can assure you that if you think there's a perfect kit out there, or even worse, think you can build a perfect plane, you're sadly mistaken.

Even if they aren't perfect, there are ARF's currently on the market that are well engineered, and are assemblembled, look and perform better than what most builders are capable of. To me, even if you do have to modify/fix a thing or two, they are great. If your time is of worth anything, they can be a big savings, and will get you in the air quickly. I'll gladly take my mediocre building/repair skills, improve on them over the winters to come, build ARF's when appropriate, enjoy the hobby and appreciate the convenience they provide.
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Old 07-23-2002, 01:58 AM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

"Can't we all just get along?"

Eric
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Old 07-23-2002, 07:42 AM
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Default Build? Why?

I have built several kits: Sig Kavalier, Balsa USA 1/4 Cub, GP Tracer, GP Tutor, GP Uproar, Laser 3D, GP Giles 202.

I have found the building to be very therapeutical, but that is where the advantage stops. Except for my Thunder Tiger Cub, I cannot build to the marksmanship of the ARF's I have bought. I have built the Hangar 9 73" Cap 232, Hangar 9 Ulta Stick 60, World Models Zen 90, Global Ultimate, and the TT Cub. I can get in air with the ARF for less money, better end appearance and much quicker than a kit. The ARF's do have a few kinks here and there, but so do kits. I have not built a kit yet that did not have a problem with wood, missing instructions, or worse, improper instructions. I guess the Laser 3D was the least problem prone kit so far.

I like to build, but I like to fly, too. And to me, the adrenalin from flying is far better than the solitude of building.
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Old 07-23-2002, 09:42 AM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

I have to admit, their are a lot of marginal product out there. But as I understand a Beautifil Almost Ready to Fly (BARF) won the IMAC Unlimited Nationals this past weekend!
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Old 07-23-2002, 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by MinnFlyer
My dad is 82 years old and flies every day. He gets bored with his planes, and every now and then he sees an ARF that catches his eye and decides to get it so he doesn't have to waist time building. And EVERY time he does it, (4 at last count) he swears he will never do it again.
MinnFlyer,

Your dad is 82 and with all respect to you & him, he has probably been building kits and scratch since before I was born (1972!) and you have grown up with this tradition. And since ARF's are a recent addition to the hanger, there is no comparison for a man of this experience. This comparison is similar to myself, who has gone from driving stick shift cars for 10 years in Europe to automatic cars in the US....there is no comparison, stick shift is the way to go but that's another debate The funny thing is, most Americans would agree with me but they would never buy a manual shift car - why? Because automatics, as are ARF's, are convenient to the average Joe Bloggs out there.

IMHO, ARF's have are just another addition in a very long line to that has tried to make life convenient to Western society (others being drive through banks, fast food take-away's - even drive through beer stores as found here in Houston )

As you rightly point out, you get what you pay for. You pay the right money and you should get a decent ARF that is beautifully constructed, expertly covered and is an amazing flyer. But never compare them to the kits that you build as, unless you are a poor kit builder, there will be no comparison.

I would love to read someone's comments who has gone from building ARF's for 10 years to building kits. I have just bought my first kit two weeks ago after building 2 ARF's (I've only been in this hobby for 6 months) so I will give my opinion then!

Until then, Happy Flying!

Crawls off the soap box
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Old 07-23-2002, 01:56 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

Ok, before anybody get too bent out of shape, allow me to apologize and explain my view.

First, take everything I say on the subject of ARF's with a grain of salt. Half of what I say is tongue-in-cheek. Like the razzing rival football fans give each other.

The roots of my dislike of pre-fabed airplanes derive from the fact that it's getting harder and harder to find good kits because so many manufacturers are switching to ARF's because so many people are buying them.

I am really appalled at how many cool new planes are hitting the market that I can't (or won't) buy because they are not available in kit form. I have a big problem with manufacturers of ANY product that does my thinking for me, and because there are so many people in the world who don't want to have to think, I have to suffer the consequences. The other thing that ticks me off is that in many cases these people are lead to believe that a new way of doing something is better than it really is. It's called SALESMANSHIP.

Let me give you some examples.

Back when I learned to drive a car, you had a little button that would squirt fluid on your windshield, then, you turned on your windshield wiper until your window was clean. But, the engineers decided that I was too stupid to use TWO buttons, so now I have a button that, when I press it, the DRY wipers scratch my windshield by sweeping the DRY dirt across it two times before some fluid squirts out, and then the wipers stop automatically whether the windshield is dry or not. BUT! This is BETTER cause I only have to push ONE button!

I saw an infomercial recently where some lady was showing how well her machine cuts broccoli. She took a small, neatly trimmed head of broccoli and put it in the machine, and voila! What she doesn't bother to tell you is that she had to cut it to size and neatly trim it with a KNIFE before she put it in the machine! Three more whacks with that same knife and you don't NEED the damn machine! BUT! The machine is better because she wants you to buy it!

Or try this one... Go into your local Burger King and ask for a double meat Whopper Jr. The kid behind the counter will stare at the cash register like a deer in the headlights for a few minutes, and then say "we don't have those", or "I can't sell you one of those". Why not? Because they don't have a friggin button on their cash register for it and God forbid they should have to use their brains or make a decision.

Yea, I know I sound like an old fogey (Now back in MY day etc.) But the bottom line is that too many people want someone else to do their thinking for them, and as long as we let that happen, we are left at the mercy of the thinkers.
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Old 07-23-2002, 03:02 PM
  #20  
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

I echo your sentiments MikeB.

I've given up on kits, good ones are getting harder to find and many are still produced with unsharpened dies (die crushing). What's worse, the balsa quality in kits has diminished.

I'm moving on to plans building. Should be cheaper anyway, I've been discarding most material (especially hardware) in kits of late anyway....

You can have your (b)ARFs, automatics , Big Macs ,Nintendo, pastel sweaters, near-beer etc.

I'm a BBQ steak 'n potatoes, stick drivin, Canadian beer drinkin, jeans 'n t-short wearin', Unix developin', politically incorrect, fabric 'n dope coverin, carpenter's glue 'n epoxy type malcontent and d*mn proud of it!

(b)ARFs are only good for landfill and making my planes look extra nice when I set up beside them.
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Old 07-23-2002, 04:20 PM
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Default ARF's are KING!!!!

Originally posted by MinnFlyer
I have a big problem with manufacturers of ANY product that does my thinking for me, and because there are so many people in the world who don't want to have to think, I have to suffer the consequences. The other thing that ticks me off is that in many cases these people are lead to believe that a new way of doing something is better than it really is. It's called SALESMANSHIP.
oh boy oh boy oh boy.
What kind of car do you drive? What do you call it? How long did it take you to build? Or did you buy it? Wouldn't you consider that an RTD? (Ready to Drive) Bet you could’ve built a better one.

Do you have a washing machine/dryer? I bet you still take your laundry to the 'crik' huh? No machine for you.

Do you have a microwave? How long did it take you to build that. Plan on getting a patent? Don’t let them damn master degree technology geeky guys think for you! – REEEE…BEL!

TV… do you have a TV, was that RTW? (ready to watch) or did you design and build that too?

Phone, now that must of taken a while…must of hurt the ol’ noggin thinking up that one.

Now this may be a stretch, as some may actually build, but do you live in a house? or maybe a lean-to? How long did ya take on that one?

…wow this could go on for ever (just razz’n MinnFlyer)

Originally posted by Jim_McIntyre
I echo your sentiments MikeB....

I'm a BBQ steak 'n potatoes, stick drivin, Canadian beer drinkin, jeans 'n t-short wearin', Unix developin', politically incorrect, fabric 'n dope coverin, carpenter's glue 'n epoxy type malcontent and d*mn proud of it! ....
BBQ - open pit? half credit, but likely not. Does your design incorporate 2 or 3 levels, brickettes? propane?
Did you raise the cow? Did you kill the cow? Hack and slash the cow? I say ARTE (almost ready to eat)
Did you grow the potatoes? ARTE
stick drivin - huh? I build arfs and I drive stick, is this like a contradiction ?
How about that brew (another stretch, as many Canadians do make their own brew hehehe) but probably not, so ARTD (almost ready to drink-gotta take the top off first ya know)
Jeans – geez, that must be time consuming, nah …RTW (ready to wear)
t-short- haven't heard of that one - your own design?
Unix – wow, don’t get me started on this…must have come to you in the middle of the night huh? right.... ARTBAOS (almost ready to be an OS)
Politically incorrect - ok
Fabric and dope - what's the dope for ...hehehe
Homemade glue ? ARTU (Almost ready to use)
Malcontent – you do seem that way by your post :P


…And ever and ever… , again, just razz’n Jim


There’s a long list of remarkable benefits of ARFs, please, let me state some more:

-There are some excellent ARFs out there. Period.
-Countless beginners have had excellent success with them.
-Countless experienced flyers have had excellent with them.
-The instructions in most have been awesome.
-The hardware has been fine and no less then what is given in many kits.
-The assembly can be average to superb, and likely better than a no experienced beginner could do.
-The cost of an ARF is fantastic. Truly unbeatable in many circumstances.
-Some even offer a complete replacement to newbies if they plant it, with a qualified instructor
-The ARF is allowing some great new planes to be manufactured. Cudos!
-Your entire heart and soul is not necessarily invested in the plane. Some say this is a ‘con’. I say horsepucky. Wanna make a wager on how many potential RC’ers we’ve lost due to the fact they poured all their time and energy into their FIRST ‘KIT’ plane, only to have it turn into a pile of TOOTHPICKs and NEVER get back to the hobby again?
-The ARF allows you to take time to better yourself in other ways, spend time with loved ones, do chores, make money to pay the bills etc. I don’t think we all have the luxury of sitting in a shop for 10 hours a day working on our passion.
- The ARF allows the newbie to get acquainted with the hobby, and fully develop. Maybe, just maybe (cringe teeth) build a kit or 2!!!

AND…...who knows how many GREAT remote control enthusiasts we would not have today if it wasn't for the ARF invention. I for one am glad to have them as part of the RC community!

The one supposed con that never ceases to amaze is "what are you going to do if you have to make a repair". I mean what? Duh. I guess some kit builders assume that it takes some magical gift to sand and glue balsa?. Truly baffles the mind. I hazard to guess that I could build just as well, if not better than some self proclaimed 'kit' builders. It’s just time. Oh, I bet most already have those skills from other areas of their lives. But heh, give me 10 hours a day, lotsa extra $, and I’ll build up such an air force that you might even allow me in your private little group! Ok, I know that's going over board sorry

With that said, some of these self-proclaimed "kit" builders make it seem as though they should be working for NASA, when it reality it is quite laughable at the the jigsaw puzzles that are made out to be boxes of sticks.

Cut yourself down a balsa tree (ya, I don’t even know if it’s a tree – I build (oh sorry), no, assemble ARFS, cut me some slack eh? Thx) , and out of that create a true 1/3 scale biplane, and ya you gots skillz

But buy a Something Extra “kit”, build it in an evening and make it seem like you just allowed man to land on Mars – well…I don’t get it hehehehe. :stupid:

A builder who continually avoids the astonishing benefits of the formidable lineup of impecable ARFs must live in a sad, confined and deprived world. :sunsmiley

I on the other hand, being an ARF assembler of sound mind and body, can see benefits to BOTH the ARF, and the kit.

hehehe ...you're right, this if fun. Just like razzing football fans … and yes it’s slow at work.

flame suit on :boxing:
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Old 07-23-2002, 04:51 PM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Nice to see somebody takes this the 'tongue in cheek' way it's meant.

As a matter of fact, I grew up on a farm and did 'scratch build' a lot of them meat 'n potatoes. I also enjoy camping so the BBQ is often no more than a 'circle of rocks'.
As for the original vehicle, did I mention I used to build my own go-carts?
As for Unix, yes, I write a lot of the services I use, in fact I was a tools provider until last year when I sold out to the Java world. Before that I worked on embedded systems and wire-wrapped my own systems and wrote simple compilers for them.

As Sun Tzu wrote: "Know your enemy before attacking (paraphrased)"

Now for some serious material;

My hobby (not to be confused with everyday things like cars and microwaves) includes the fine crafting and flying of aircraft. IMHO, buying an ARF cheapens my hobby untill it's not much more than a step above playing nintendo.

I recently heard that dropping the "builder of the plane" rule is being considered for FAI F4C. I DO NOT feel this is a good move. Too many competitions have moved to the "who has more money" instead of a "who can build/fly better competition".
I think this move would considerably cheapen the hobby and seriously hamper the possibility of it ever being considered a sport (and reaping associated benefits) as it is in other countries.

If ARF builders want to compete, let them get their own category, not corrupt mine! :boxing:
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Old 07-23-2002, 05:33 PM
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Arfin',
I'm glad to see that someone around here can dish it out too!

And Jim, next time you're in Minnesota, the steaks are on me! (then we'll go flyin'!!!)
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Old 07-23-2002, 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by Jim_McIntyre
...
I recently heard that dropping the "builder of the plane" rule is being considered for FAI F4C. I DO NOT feel this is a good move. Too many competitions have moved to the "who has more money" instead of a "who can build/fly better competition".
I think this move would considerably cheapen the hobby and seriously hamper the possibility of it ever being considered a sport (and reaping associated benefits) as it is in other countries.

If ARF builders want to compete, let them get their own category, not corrupt mine! :boxing:
darn corrupt arf'rs :devious: . But I totally agree with you on this Jim. Never looked into competition in RC, but good Lord, common sense has to prevail? no? "ya, I bought this completed plane yesterday" as he collects his trophy...puke. This, unfortunately is what causes me to not want to compete in many disciplines. Like go carts too eh? Some guy spends 10,000 on a cart, and another spends 2000, and they compete against each other...ya it's about skill...but....
Imagine a swimsuit competition? Some mutt hires some babe for oodles of cashola to put in a pageant. The babe wins, and the mutt collects the fame and prizes - wouldn't make sense to me.

Jim, Mike thx for not ripping me a new one :surprised
....and if I only built kits...I might be having steak in Minnesota too :disappoin
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Old 07-23-2002, 06:29 PM
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Hey Minnflyer, do the mosquitos prefer ARF's or kits when they carry your planes away. Mother Nature knows best. LOL
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