J3FAN

SCENARIO : Instructor graduates a student and to help out in his RC forthcoming career GIVES him a NIB Engine.....
"time passes" (several months)
Instructor asks student : IF you wont use engine, can you return it ?
Student says the engine was never used and was GIVEN AWAY but may be found and RETURNED.
Was this an "Injungiver" situation ?
If the student had no use for the engine, is it proper to ask for it returned?
The RATIONALE applied is that if the student has no use for the item then the original owner should get it back without benefitting a third party who was not involved in the original deal.
Very interested in "opinions"
(Flaming not required or appreciated)

Hossfly

My opinion is that if the student wasn't going to use the engine within the foreseeable future, to ask for it returned is no problem.

However if the stud. says it was passed on then IMO it has passed on. End of story.

The giver GAVE it. The recipient was correct in treating it as his own and has no responsibility to the original giver.

depfife

My Feedback: (14)

If there were no stipulations placed when the engine was presented to the student, IMO it is his to do with as he pleases. I don't see anything terrible about the instructor mentioning to him that he has a use for it if the student does not need it, but that is as far as I would go. I certainly would not expect him to retrieve it from the person he gave it to.

Eric

Mettler1

IMO the student should have given the engine back if they were not going to use it. It's called courtesy.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

I tend to agree with Horrace on this one. (Whew! That was hard to type. [8D])
However if all parties are agreeable to it and the end recipient has no immidiate need and all are freindly I may go ask for the engine back and explain the whole situation. Otherwise the deal stands as a deal.

If you can't look yourself in the eye or tell your mother and be proud after you did it, chances are it wasn't ethical. Sometimes the ethical thing will make us feel small at the moment but good later on.

last12know

The instructor gave with no stipulations, student gave it away. Why was there even a question of it being given back?

Cyclic Hardover

My Feedback: (3)

So which one of the three are you???? The Instructor, Student or the guy who received the engine!

ClemenTang

Or are you the engine?

Eastern culture don't have it any different either. It is a gift. Think of it as such.

Clement

DBCherry

My Feedback: (4)

If the gift was a gift, without stipulation, then the instructor should not have asked for it back. Period.
Dennis-

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

While I agree with the theory that once given, the engine was the givee's to do with as he pleased, it is pretty darn cheesy for him to do that. I'm sure the instructor, proud of his new graduate, gave him the engine to further his modeling experience. It is rather ungrateful of the new pilot to give that present to someone else, IMO.

I train a lot of newbies, and usually contribute something besides my time to their effort. And I have indeed given an engine that I wasn't using to one guy, who put it on his second, kit-built model.

You can bet the grocery money that anyone I gave something to, with the un-stated but obviously understood purpose of furthering their experience/enjoymwent in the hobby, who then gave that item to someone else for nothing in return, would get no further help/attention from me.

What you describe, J3FAN, is pretty much a slap in the face to that instructor.

aimmaintenance

I think calling it a slap in the face of the instructer is a bit much.
I've been given items as a gift that I knew I didn't want when I recieved them but to be polite just smiled and said thankyou. Later down the road have passed them along to someone that did want/need them. I don't feel bad about that. Furthermore if the guy gave the engine to someone that needed it then the instructers gift has benefitted another person in the hobby. If I was the instructer I wouldn't be the least bit upset.

crownvic

If the newbee had no use for the motor he could have just said thanks any way and told the instructor to give it to someone who could use it

JMO
Lonnie

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

I agree with you lonnie. At the very least, if the student had decided later on that he wasn't going to use the engine and didn't want it he should have at least let the instructor know and offer it back to him first or ask if it was ok to sell it/give it away. That would be having a little gratitude for the free gift!!!

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

But this is fairly common. There's an instructor thread, instructors sharing some of their experiences, like helping someone learn, then giving them a plane, never seeing them again and finding out the student sold the plane. Dozens of stories like that.

A gift's a gift. If you want to train your instructors to give NOTHING but the minimum, then treat their gifts like disposables. I'd say this instructor just learned a lesson.

You might share with your children how you think they should handle gifts from people.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

MikeL

My Feedback: (3)

To answer the question, no, there was not any unethical behavior here. Yes, there may have been better ways for some of the parties involved to handle themselves, but that in and of itself doesn't make their actions unethical. It looks like there was a lack of communication on the instructor's part. If he intended that the engine should be used by the student on a new model, he should have made that clear when he gave the gift. That would have given the student the opportunity to decline.

All in all, this really isn't a big deal. It's certainly not something worth creating hard feelings over.

Live Wire

I have given Planes, Motors and time when it is given to some one what they do with it is their business. The ties between a student and a instructor some times does not last but its thinking of what you can get down the line. The old adage was if you don't have a use for some thing don't except it let the giver give it to some one that will appriciate it.

*Crash*Johnson*

My Feedback: (7)

Cut the engine in half and give one half to each person. Problem solved.

AgCat1982

I agree completely with the notion that it was a slap in the face to the instructor. This whole idea of "he gave it to him then he can do what ever wants with it" bothers me. This may be legally accurate, however, it say a lot about peoples attitudes today. It should have been known that the only reason he got the motor was to help him fly! Which, in turn, should have been clear to the student, that if he was not going to use it, offer it back to the instructor asking him to give to the next student. The idea the student didn't even consider the reason he was given the gift and feel "the heck with you, its mine now and I can do what I want with it" (not saying he actually said those words) really bothers me. Like I said, of course he could do what he wanted with it. It just say a lot about todays youth, IMO.

Jim Messer

My Feedback: (2)

I had a similar situation a few years ago. A member of our club that was newly married and without much money came to my house and asked to borrow my foam wing cutter. "Sure - of course you can". At the same visit I learned that he didn't have an engine for the plane he was building, so I "loaned" him a brand new in box engine to get him in the air, with the stipulation that when he got enough money to purchase an engine, this one would be coming back. I also loaned him a bunch of other goodies, and he left with an armfull.

A couple of months later Sean stopped coming to the field and to the club meetings. Probably about two months after that I saw Sean on the street and asked him what's up? He said that he had gotten out of the model business. I asked about my foam cutter, engine, and other stuff, and he told me that he had sold it all.

I just chalked that up as a bad experience. Some people are like that. You live and you learn.

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

We have two ways to look at this.
Ethical and legal.
From an ethical stand point, if someone gives you something to benefit you, it is only ethical to return it if it isn't used. From a legal standpoint, ownership passed to the student and he/she can do with it as they wish.

Live Wire

It is not just what some people consider young people that you have to watch out for. "Been there done That"[:@]
Edit
It looks like some people are just looking for a sucker to put the touch on. And theres a sucker born every day

ClemenTang

Jim's experience is certainly a bad one cos he gave with a stipulation and some items are actually loaned so the givee's failing to return a loaned item and actually sold it equals theft, doesn't matter what lawyers have to say.

For a gift, however, I won't mind the givee passing it on. He might truely think it's as meaningful giving it to the next guy. If I gave it I don't need it nor expect it back. For me it's given away and I can understand he might feel the same and gave it away, and think the same of me.

Clement

famousdave

My Feedback: (61)

If someone gave me something and I didn't use it I would offer it back to the giver long before giving it to someone else. It is a common courtesy. Unfortunately, not too many people know what that is any more.

I had someone I worked with who I thought was smart "beg" me for Nascar tickets (I know some of the Nascar, IRL and CART team owners so I get a lot of racing freebies). Well, I went through considerable trouble to get a VIP package for 2 people including passes for the sponsor tent, press areas and seats in the terrace (best seat in the house) . I gave that person the tickets for what I would consider a lifetime experience for her and her husband. She was thrilled to death, so she says.

At the last minute just before the race she gave them to a friend because her husband didn't want to go. Then the friend (who I did not know or had even met) passed them to his teenage son. Now I had no control over who was going to the event, and that access included hot pits, garage areas and press booth - my rep was now on the line.

I was FURIOUS. I hated to do this but I reported the tickets as stolen and security confiscated them at the track entrance when the kids showed up.

Unless it was something I gave a person as a present (i.e. birthday, xmas, etc) I would be bothered if someone gave away something of value I donated to them to help them out. I would be outright pissed if they sold it and pocketed the cash.

Maybe I'm messed up but that's the way I think anyway.
DP

Taildrager-inactive

My Feedback: (11)

Giving something with strings attached is no gift, it's a form of controll. The instructor had the right to ask if the student was going to use the motor, but not expect that the student would give it back. End of story. We all know 99% of the time you don't get something for free.

scottrc

[:'(]Forgot what I was going to say[:'(]