AmishWarlord

My Feedback: (5)

People not willing to pay for quality.

You guys ever notice on auction sites like ebay that people are just not willing to pay much for a built plane? Like lets say you just want to gain some experience building different planes and you like to break even or maybe even make a little profit wile doing it. Well, from what I've seen on ebay it would work like this. You'd make a Top Flight Corsair. Build it scale with rivet details and instal a nice 4 stroke engine and Robart retracts. Well, you would think that would sell for a lot of money! You be lucky to get the cost of the engine and retracts back much less the cost of the kit. Forget about getting any money for construction cost or your time building it. Why is this? You would think that in this ARF age people would be willing to drop some money for a really nice plane. It looks like however that people would gladly spend $350 and a ARF "kit" than spend the same amount of money or less on a plane of the same size built from a kit or plans. I just don't get it.

Here is an example of this. Now I know we are not allow to post that we are having an auction but this link is from old closed auction that is just for our model economic discussion here in this thread.

This one is a guy from Organ.

Link to FW-190

He made a FW-190 from a Jemco kit. The plane is built to be a fast pylon racer. This is a brand new plane not used one. From the description it has all high quality hardware installed and comes with an OS 61 with incowl muffler. The plane has what appears to have a really good custom paint job. Radio installation looks really neat and functional. All in all I'd say this was a really sweet plane for someone that wants a screaming Reno warbird. So what did this plane go for? $212.65. That's not enough money to cover the cost of the engine and muffler let alone the plane. Lucky this guy had a reserve. I think this plane should have gone for $400-$500.

Now I'm sure some of you will suggest that because this plane is already built that 1/2 to fun of it is gone. I would agree with this in the past but not now in the age of the ARF. I see this over and over. A jet selling for less than the radio that comes with it or a 1/3 scale Extra selling for the cost of it's 3W engine. So OK we learn that not made in a factory is "used" and "used" is cheap. Maybe there is a "Risk" factor involved here. "Did that guy use enough epoxy in the engine mount and wing joint?" Well, them we get into engines. Have you guys seen this? A well used engine goes for about 1/2 it;s cost new. A engine that's new in the box or barley run will go for 3/4 of it's cost new! Why is this? From what we've seen with models it looks like a well used engine will go for 1/10 it's cost new and a new in box or barley run engine should not be over 1/2 the cost of the new one. I'm not talking about collector items here I'm talking about current engines like a 46 FX or a Magnum 61. If the "risk factor" plays a big part in keeping the cost of a model plane down then it should come really into play in a model engine. "Was this engine broken in or did the guy just put it on his Q-500, lean it out and rip it around the pylons"?

I just don't understand the discrepancy between the prices people are willing to pay for a nicely built model and an old raged out used engine.

Mystic6

My Feedback: (1)

I think you partially stated it yourself. It's a risk. You have no idea how good a builder the person is, and you're only seeing photos. You also have no recourse should the plane or engine turn out to be junk. Add in the extra shipping cost because the plane is built, and you've got some of the reasons.

SHARK

This is a good thread. I have wondered about this too. You would think someone could frame up a popular kit, like the Sig Somethin Extra and sell it at a swap meet for a few bucks more than the kit costs because it's already built. There shouldn't be much risk if it's not covered and you can see the workmanship. It sure doesn't work that way though. The only way it would sell, at least at the meets I go to would be to price it at $30 -$40.
It's just a hobby, not a business and business logic doesn't always apply.

mvigod

Supply and demand determines all pricing. There is obviously adequate supply of certain models in a form that people are willing to pay only certain dollar amounts for.

On the surface it does lack any logic. Sometimes stuff in this hobby goes for 50 cents on the dollar give or take and that could be for an ARF even that has less than 10 flights on it. An item is only worth what one person is willing to pay for it and both here and on ebay it shows what people will pay.

Boats are like this too...buy it and few things depreciate as fast...they say the happiest day in a boat owners life is the day they bought their new boat and the day they sold it

Flyfalcons

The same thing is true with Homebuilt Aircraft. You can buy a beautifully built one with low time for less money than it takes to build it yourself. Only if you build a name for yourself in either field can you expect to make any money building kits.

RCaeroguy

My Feedback: (4)

We all know that the name of the game is to get something for nothing or as close as we can get. We don't want to pay any more than absolutely necessary. Unless someone who knows and understands the kind of work that goes into well built scale aircraft, you'll never convince that person to pay what it's worth. I will hardly even pay catalog prices for new kits. I always try to get them cheaper. The funny thing about ebay is, sometimes thing go for way more than they're worth and sometimes you can't break even. It's like Marc said I guess, supply and demand. If you're going to build planes to sell, try swap meets and the like. Somewhere people can actually see how it's put together. I know that when I look at planes on ebay and even up on RCU, I'm a little skeptical.

Just my wandering thoughts.

68v

My Feedback: (5)

I personally like the people on this sight. I see a lot of people selling a $500.00 to $750.00 item for $250.00 to $400.00 and then some joker comes along and offers $75.00 to $125.00. Its like they just don't have a clue what this stuff is worth? Go figure what their thinking?

bkf

My Feedback: (5)

With all due respect sir they are just living in what the economy can bare now, and it ain't much.

planecrazy101

I believe that in this instance the plane would bring closer to what it's worth if it didn't include the engine and radio. First, they just add to the risk, and second, the buyer may not like the combination. MY 2.

rockmon

Seems to me everyone has forgotten what an auction really is and ebay is an auction, you put your item up for BID and the highest bidder walks away with it. I know you all know that but it seems your trying to turn it into a retail store or something. I bet you don't see one person come here and complain that he put in a low BID on an item and got it, jeez guys think about what your saying here. That's part of it getting something for next to nothing, it's a game man, it's all a big game. If you want that kind of money for your effort you better hang out your shingle and get your business going and don't expect someone to give you top dollar on an auction site for your beautiful creation.

RCaeroguy

My Feedback: (4)

Rockmon, you said what I was trying to say in my post. Auctions are just that, auctions.
Well said.

Al Stein

My vote is with the guys talking about risk.

When I pay somebody for their building skills, I'm betting my money that they have more skill than I do -- and as a builder, I don't see many people who do.

I regularly sell planes for a lot more than the cost of their kits and am still told by most buyers that I should charge more. I think they can say that because at that point they have the product to look at, so they can tell what it's worth. It's just not easy to get a good enough look at something on the internet to tell what it's worth.

Of course the supply and demand thing helps -- if I'm building on speculation, I'll usually build something that I know is very saleable at the time, and if I sell on the internet, I try and post detail pictures showing the workmanship.

redrocker

"Risk" could be the key.
The only time I have sold a plane for anything near what I had invested in it is when a fellow club member offered to buy a plane I frequently fly at our field, and it was good flying plane with a reliable engine. So- bottom line is that the guy was not really taking any risk, and wanted to pay a fair price for the plane.

Regarding economics of RC, what I do not understand is the strange relationship of the cost of ARFs compared to kits. Take the Goldberg Tiger II- you would think the ARF version would cost a bunch more than it does, compared to the kit price.

Al Stein

Around here we're guessing that foriegn factory ships sitting at the edge of our territorial waters are doing more than just fishing... how else could anyone buy covering, shipping, and building labor for the price difference?

I turned down the last guy who asked me to build him a plane -- because he wanted a basic trainer and I cannot give him a good value on a plane like that as compared to a factory-built ARF. For something more advanced, there's added value in the custom work and extra care I put into it, but for something basic, ARFs are just coming out at too good a price to argue with. Too good a price to match legally in this country.

mulligan

To me, it makes little sense to buy a built airplane on Ebay. Yes, risk is the big reason. For example, I saw a guy at Deland a couple weeks ago trying to sell a H9 P-51 ARF built for $650!!! The ARF is $250, the engine and radio gear were worth another $200, but it was an ARF for God's sake! And to top it off, the cowl was all messed up, the canopy was sloppily attached, etc.

If I am going to pay for a built airplane, I will find someone I know and trust to do the job and pay him fairly.

On Ebay especially, it's a crap shoot. Why would a seller want to auction a plane on Ebay instead of posting here or another RC oriented site?? Hmmm, makes you wonder, doesn't it? Maybe I'm too cynical, but my belief is that sellers (of RC at least) on Ebay don't want the product scrutinized very much, so they don't go where the more savvy buyers are.

- George

Texas 3D

My Feedback: (16)

That's why I only buy NIB stuff on ebay (and have also found some killer deals), and if I buy a used plane (if ever), I would get it from the LHS where they are hanging from the ceiling and can be inspected prior of purchase, or from a fellow club member where I know the history of the plane.
I have sold also some of my stuff on ebay, but it is also mainly NIB stuff for which I have no more need for.
If I need to sell a plane, I prefer to sell it here on RCU because there will be questioning and answering going on before making the purchase/sale. I always tell them exactly in what shape the plane, engine, servos, etc. are before selling. I have had no complains so far. The same I would expect if I would buy somebody's else plane here. I am always willing to pay a fair price if the item is exactly as described. Unfortunately ebay doesn't seem to work that well with used RC items.
So therefore: Yes it is a risk to bid and buy on ebay, and that's why the prices are so low.
Just my $0.02
Look at this plane on ebay. Fixer upper super special ! Think there was a risk in buying it ? LOLROTF This is hilarious

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=19164

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

That, in a nutshell, is called business. Just because some yuckles puts a price of $500.00 to $750.00 on somthing doesn't make it worth that! In the old days it was called haggling! Wheeling and dealing is an art that is quickly being lost in this country to the Saturn car dealers "well, if that's the sticker price thats all there is too it mentality." Rest assured, you won't find me buying a car from dealers like that!

AmishWarlord

My Feedback: (5)

"Look at this plane on ebay. Fixer upper super special ! Think there was a risk in buying it ? "


LOL that's too funny! But it did sell! Go ebay!


Oh how about this retched P.O.S. of a RC airplane. Guy only got one bidder. :P

hookedonrc

There is not enough money to buy the product and pay the builder for the sentiment that is not of the buyer. I am new to this hobby and even my ARF's carry some sentimental value to me. No one pays for sentiment.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

As it was stated above, this is a hobby. There are very few people out there that build to make money. We have a flyer at our field that is one of the best builders I have ever seen. Whenever I buy a plane from him he sells it for the cost of the plane/engine/monokote/radio (if installed). I don't know how many times I have offered him more for the plane because his time and experience is definately worth something to me. He always says no and explains that he builds for fun. It's what he enjoys doing. He's retired and if he starts getting paid to build then it's too much like having a job again!!!!!

just my 2 cents worth

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

While this may make a few people mad, if I purchase a RTF plane, I make sure that the value of the parts minus the airframe is not greater than the price I pay. This is definitely unfair for some but I have had RTF planes that came apart in less than 10 flights. I had one that the guy swore was ready to go and I have to replace the flight battery pack (1800maH that cycled at 600maH) tightened the engine screws. (one nut was missing) and replace the tank (leaked around the brass tube)

I had another plane that I bought and during the second flight, the aileron came off. No excessive speed (I use large diameter, low pitch propellers) I had another one that the gear came off during a landing attempt (built, not ARF) and I had to fly around with out a gear trying to figure out what to do.

Did I get what I paid for (YES I love this hobby). Is their risk buying from others YES. Will I do it again? (YES)!!!

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

LOL! I guess that WOULD ruin his fun!

bushwhacker

Any item is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. It is after all a buyers market. He pays the piper calls the tune.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I will buy used kits. And let me tell you, rare old kits that are out of production fetch a healthy price on Ebay. I would never bid on a built aircraft for sale on Ebay unless it was close enough to pay a visit and inspect it first hand. So, I think the idea that you have a national market on Ebay is just an illusion. I think most people only consider the built planes that are close enough for them to actually go inspect. And I worry about shipping a built plane as well.