awesome

My Feedback: (1)

Hi , Don't know if this is the right forum , but here goes.
I am in the early stages of designing a R/C electronic fuel injection system for myself and maybe for sale. I'm just wondering if any modelers would like to see this in production?
If so , would you care to offer any input as to what features you would like to see in such a system , for example the ability to log data , user interface you would like best (stand alone or via p/c laptop) , etc.? Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks ,Leon.

banktoturn

awesome,

The feature that might justify the expense, weight, and complexity of fuel injection is superior engine performance. The ideal user interface would be one or two screws to adjust the thing.

banktoturn

CHassan

My Feedback: (13)

OS already has a Fuel injection engine http://www.osengines.com/engines/osmg0662.html
Probably more out there his is just the one I have heard about

awesome

My Feedback: (1)

banktoturn ,I am designing a efi system for a petrol / spark two stroke. I don't understand how you have come to your conclusions regarding weight ,etc. Do you honestly belive that efi runs second to carburettor and mechanical/vacuum distributor? If so you don't know what your missing out on. If you want to live in the '70s then i guess thats up to you, perhaps you should drop a carby back on your late model injected car and talk to me then! As for the OS efi system , this is fuel control on a glow 2 stroke , a step in the right direction , but what i am talking about is slightly more sophisticated than that. I am a keen aeromodeler who wants to develop a new technology for these engines , but i guess i'll have to put up with uninformed uneducated comments , it's all part of the ego trip some people feel they have to make! I'm in this hobby to have fun and maybe put something back in . Stupid comments are acknowledged , but not appreciated!

banktoturn

awesome,

I'm sorry, I didn't express myself clearly enough. I'll try to do so now. I understand the benefits of fuel injection very well. I was responding to the question you asked, which is what features we might be interested in. I was being a bit judgmental in my response, in the sense the I was emphasizing that the main 'feature' to be desired from fuel injection is the performance benefit. In particular, I was making the point that the ability to get at the data that might be processed in the operation of an EFI system is not a valuable feature, although it may well appeal to some modelers who just get a kick out of that kind of thing. The only interface needed for an EFI system is that which is needed to adjust it. Ideally, it should require none. Moreover, I was making the point that, in order to come out ahead, you have to get the performance benefit without giving up too much in terms of weight, complexity, and cost. I did not mean to imply that fuel injection is inferior to carburetion, and, looking back at my post, I don't see how you inferred it.

Poor reading comprehension is acknowledged, but not appreciated.

banktoturn

RCaeroguy

My Feedback: (4)

Hey awesome, chill man. It's not worth getting all worked up about. Take a Valium, read banktoturn's comments for what they are and answer the man in a civilized manner. jeez.

Lynx

If you wanted to succesfully sell units to the average RC'er, make it idiot proof and don't over complicate the setup. Extra information from the engine is almost completly useless to all but the highly experimental users, and they make stuff themselves anyways. They don't care what the engine is running at as long as it's running well.

bear750

My Feedback: (30)

Well, he did say "any comments would be appreciated"...

I'll have to agree with the former replies. I cannot speak for other modelers, but I don't think any additional weight or complexities would be good for a scale model, unless it were on something with extremely light wingloading beforehand, and the modeler in question had the time/desire to review all of the engine data. I for one would be just as happy with an engine that maintained a needle valve setting for longer than one flight session. JMHO

Dago Red

My Feedback: (11)

Is making a fuel injected engine hop it up any on RPM's. and will it decrease the engines life span?, either way, if ya sell it and i can afford it, i might have to give one a try, i thought they were always neat, and OS is a bit high in price, what else is new, good engines, good luck, keep us posted.

Jemo

My Feedback: (5)

What post were you reading..I didn't see anything like that.

niceorange

Woah, what is up with that Bro, Banktoturn was simply stating the obvious, not slamming tried and true technology. I think you need to remember that complicated is not always better. Is a carb so inferior that it justifies the time, labor, and money involved in an efi system? I dont know, but thats just an opinion, I'm not suggesting anything more!

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

I would not say a carb is inferior at all!! Each has its purpose, and its pluses.

Fuel injection would be neat, but would not be as cheap.

Jemo

My Feedback: (5)

awesome :

.
#1- Better throttle response than we have now.
#2- Reliable operation.
#3- Cost effective.
#4- User installable.
#5- Weight, although it will probably be a trade off. You must remember you will be dealing with people who go to great pains to shave ounces off an airframe.

Data Log:

The things I see most people interested in are. In flight RPM and Cylinder Head or EGT.
and it should probably be stand alone.

If an EFI unit can deliver better performance in all throttle ranges, then we have now, I think they would forgo the data log as there are already systems out there to preform those functions.

One more thing, take the chip off your shoulder, nobody is knocking your project

Lynx

How many modern day cars are many with carburetors, how many are made with EFIs? Nuff said.

XR2PROBE

My Feedback: (2)

well i'll add my 2cents worth to the discussion

all in all i think there is enough(EGO) in this room to do more harm then good especially when a Seller is trying to promote a Sales....in essence being callis is a sure fire way to lose customers ...even potential customers..............with that said

heres my gripe on feul injection systems.........I have seen and used several......mainly the CONLEY system which even though it isnt a feul injection system as mentioned above......but rather a feul pump that runs on the compression waves that the engines produce...............the gripe is .........eventually parts wear out even vibration causes premature failure.........now im not running these applications in airplanes but rather 2cycle and 4 cycle boats

not only do i have a problem with the wear issues but also the use of finding servicable parts for replacements..........If I was looking to make a good product i would design it to use readily availiable parts and would limit the complexity of most kists out there.........I would be interested to see how the final product not only performed but also in the asthetical value of an attractive product and it doesnt have tobe complex tobe functional

I agree with JEMO in his conclusion but i would like to add that with the idea of being able to not only self install the product but be able to service it as well

now with my boats I would like to see a feul injection system design that would be able to stand on its own and with my boats i could safley get away with the extra weight and even a sepparate power source.......but in addition to the idea i would like to see a few additions

like a spark arrester, a sepparate power source for power, a kill safty,and data files shown for the testing that was compiled from actual models that have been tested using your product...........all for the name sake that unlike me im sure there are others out there that go to extreme lengths and money to make sure they have a reliable model and I dont know of too many that would be willing to add something that could wind-up doing more harm then good........And one last comment.........in reguards to what you just read....I have put $3000 into my one 6' boat and its not even complete but i'm not sure if i would put a new system in the boat if it was a one time deal.........meaning if I the buyer had to do any modifications to the engine to get your product to work correctly........i would have to be absolutly sure that the process could be reversed before i would consider such an extreme concept

banktoturn

Lynx,

I understand your point, but how many cars have to be light enough to fly, maintained by a hobbyist in his/her basement, and only cost $200.00?

banktoturn

MustangFan

Would like to see someone enter a new Fuel Injection system ... so I'll encourage you to proceed.

What may sell the device:

1.) Cost effective ... doesn't cost as much as a new engine.
2.) More Power or
3.) Better Fuel economy
4.) I agree with others on Reliability
5.) I agree on others with good throttle response ... Linear
6.) Electronic setup - no screws or knobs
7.) LCD option (with data switches) for looking at and setting parameters, plug accessible on fuse
8.) Parameters such as max head temp, average fuel flow (rich - lean) or fuel flow vs rpm, any thing else pertinent.

If you are making this controller for gas, would you consider having a spark advance unit together with it. One neat package would be welcome and maybe desired by engine manufactures.

Keep us informed on your progress and decisions !

StarskiPZ

If you are going to do it on petrol engines, how about some smart electronics that works together with the ignition timing.

Result = low idle, great response, high power.

Some adjustment for different loads ( prop sizes ), then again you could go fully auto...?

would you use a commercial injector??

Do it & good luck!

JoeMamma

awesome

Your idea sounds great, but to make an RC engine as easy to start, operate and diagnose as current automotive fuel injection systems, you should have basically all of the same components they posses. The following (typical) components are all used as computer inputs:


1. Crankshaft position sensor
2. Camshaft position sensor (if using a 4-stroke)
3. Cylinder head temperature sensor
4. Intake manifold temperature sensor
5. Oxygen sensor
6. Idle air control motor
7. Throttle position sensor
8. Manifold absolute pressure sensor
9. Battery voltage sensor
10. Oil temperature sensor
11. Fuel temperature sensor
12. Fuel low-pressure sensor
13. Fuel high-pressure sensor
14. Mass airflow sensor

The more inputs the computer looks at, the better it will control its outputs.

These computer inputs then control various outputs or functions:

1. For ignition coil spark, spark advance and spark retard
2. For fuel injector pulse width
3. To a high-pressure fuel pump
4. To a malfunction indicator lamp for examining trouble codes
5. For a tachometer output

The following will also be necessary:

1. A wiring harness for all the necessary circuitry.
2. A throttle body using either a throttle body mounted injector, or a direct port injector mounted directly at the cylinder head.
3. A mechanical or electrical fuel pressure regulator.
4. A small on-board computer that is capable of self-diagnosis.
5. A data link connector for connecting diagnostic test equipment to the computer.
6. A diagnostic scan tool to easily determine problems.


Anyway, this is probably why current RC engine manufacturers don't make such an engine.

If you can engineer and design a way of miniaturizing all of these components, you've got it licked.

Please keep me informed of your progress and GOOD LUCK in your engineering endeavors.

Cdallas2

"If you can engineer and design a way of miniaturizing all of these components, you've got it licked."


And be able to keep the weight to a minimum.

airwethead

I think "awesome" didn't get the immediate flood of praise he expected, and left in a huff.

awesome:
You asked for input, and you have gotten nothing but good stuff from everyone. I don't see how you even interpreted banktoturns reply as negative. You asked a question, he replied, very politely I might add, and you responded immediately with hostility. Nowhere in your original post did you even state that you were talking about gas and not glow engines.

With that said, my gas engines run just fine with carbs, but the prospect of an affordable, light, efficient efi system is very interesting. If you can maintain the level of civility that is expected of an adult, I, for one, would like to hear of your progress.

Keep us posted!

awesome

My Feedback: (1)

Banktoturn , I unreservedly apologise for my remarks to your reply.I have been known to get too close to something i am working on and chew people out to vent. So i hope you accept my apology for "taking it out on you" , i will keep my bad moods to myself , sorry! To all else who have replied to my questions , please keep the ideas coming , as i really do appreciate your input . If my remarks have offended anyone else here i'm sorry , so flame me if you like

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Awesome:

I have shown my butt a time or two, now you have shown yours, and we have both apologised. Ler's all drop that part of this thread.

So.

Awesome, the two systems currently on the market, the OS electrically controlled system and YS' full mechanical system have nothing in their design that prevents them from being used with gasoline fuel systems, and the YS is already on a four stroke.

And both are quite primitive compared to current automotive systems. But they also show that great complexity is not necessary to run well.

But neither is intended to increase economy per se, they are mainly for more consistent engine run with possibly, a bit more power.

And both are, in my opinin, inordinately overpriced. The YS is nowhere nearly as overpriced as the OS, though.

Truly speaking, there is absolutely no way OS can justify the $400 to $700 premium they are charging for $5 worth of electronics, and possibly as much as $30 in mechanical bits.

The YS system is almost reasonable, and compared only to YS engines itIS reasonable.

So, is this another reason to buy Magnum engines? Haw.

Now, Awesome, some engineering results, please.

Bill.

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

You guys are trying to re invent the wheel..A properly adjusted carburetor works just fine, and is already on the engine...You want do do modelers a great service ? Refine the already very good carbs we already have, maybe better mid range control..If the fuel mixture is correct, all the injection in the world won't make the engine run any better....What could be easier than twisting a few needles ?

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

RCIGN1 or RCIGN:

Not none o' me, Charlie!

Read my post again. Where did I say use it?

I really thought I, too, was giving arguments against both FI and EFI.

Thanks.

Bill.