Swastika & Iron Cross
#51
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well...no cos i dont take offence from my own country's flag, sure we did some bad stuff in the past but can you name a squeaky clean country?
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Originally posted by vtol_guy
sure we did some bad stuff in the past but can you name a squeaky clean country?
sure we did some bad stuff in the past but can you name a squeaky clean country?
That is a really blind statement, to say you have done 'some bad stuff' is really, really, sad for me to read.
Anyway, back to the point. So you don't mind puting up emblems showing your country's arm/Air force etc. So why should there be any worry about Swastikas? This might sound cheeky, but it is not meant to be. Both the US Army, believe it or not, and the Hitler, have commited terrible terrible attrocities (spelling?), so if you put a flag on your plane, you are, in your own ways, supporting these. But, this is if you look at it too deeply. I am sure that peopel don't give a damn about putting that little flag on their sports model, trying to give it a little fighter look. So it goes both ways, either all, or nothing.
#54
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i said earlier that i dont mind when people use swastika's or whatever for education or scale models or whatever, it just gets me when people show the swastika on themselves or graffiti0ing places with the swastika because they think its rebelling or whatever
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Originally posted by Tall Paul
CCRC, the motivation for using the Nazi swastika on a sport plane, not a scale model, is to OFFEND!
CCRC, the motivation for using the Nazi swastika on a sport plane, not a scale model, is to OFFEND!
Germany displayed that insignia on all its aircraft during the second world war. So if I am building an airplane that I want to look like one of those airplanes, and if it does not have exact scale dimensions, panel lines and rivet detail, then all of a sudden my motivation changes from building a great looking airplane to trying to offend somebody!! I strongly disagree with you sir!
#56
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Swastika & Iron Cross
The gratituous display of the symbol of German National Socialism is frequently interpreted as a hate crime.
.
Check my HOB Bf-109E sloper... not a stika in sight, and it doesn't lack anything of the plane or the era.
.
.
Check my HOB Bf-109E sloper... not a stika in sight, and it doesn't lack anything of the plane or the era.
.
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Remember what I said previously-about a RED STAR as the very FIRST US insignia???
Dear ScottRC:
The PIPE Here again-and if you saw my "title" of my previous post here in THIS thread, I mentioned that US Air Service aircraft, at the very beginning, actually had RED STARS as insignia!
The very early models of Curtiss "tractor" (prop at the nose, unlike the earlier Curtiss "pushers") aircraft, like the Curtiss R-4 "pre-Jenny" biplanes used to hunt down Mexican warlord Pancho Villa in 1916-17, actually had RED STARS on their rudders and (I believe) wing panels!!! I DO remember an old photo of one of these planes taking off that appeared in a long-ago issue of Leo Opdycke's WORLD WAR I AERO quarterly magazine, and where the black-and-white photographic film in those long-ago days tended to act more like today's INFRARED film in how the gray tones were SO dark on any color containing ANY degree of red pigment, the RED stars actually looked VERY dark-ALMOST black-in "gray-tone" value.
Of course, and MUCH better known of, was the case where the USA was told by the British that the Americans' next insignia, the famous "Star-in-Circle" emblem of the Golden Age era between the wars, COULD be misread as a German Eisernes Kreuz at a distance by mistake-so the USA, in late 1917, picked up the Imperial RUSSIAN "roundel" marking, but made the proportions MUCH more like a British RFC/RAF roundel-so there's TWO instances of "Russian insignia" being used on US warplanes in our nation's history!
I was FLOORED when I saw that WW I AERO photo of that Curtiss R-4 taking off in 1916, in the American Southwest, with what looked like SOVIET stars on its rudder and (I think) under its wing...if I EVER find that photo, I'll scan it and share it here at RCU with my fellow av-fans!
Yours Sincerely,
The PIPE!
And WHOOPS, PhillyBaby-the Messerschmitt 109 is CORRECTLY prefixed "Bf"...make NO mistake about it!!! Just ask me by Email about WHY this is true, and I'll explain...no kiddin' !
The PIPE Here again-and if you saw my "title" of my previous post here in THIS thread, I mentioned that US Air Service aircraft, at the very beginning, actually had RED STARS as insignia!
The very early models of Curtiss "tractor" (prop at the nose, unlike the earlier Curtiss "pushers") aircraft, like the Curtiss R-4 "pre-Jenny" biplanes used to hunt down Mexican warlord Pancho Villa in 1916-17, actually had RED STARS on their rudders and (I believe) wing panels!!! I DO remember an old photo of one of these planes taking off that appeared in a long-ago issue of Leo Opdycke's WORLD WAR I AERO quarterly magazine, and where the black-and-white photographic film in those long-ago days tended to act more like today's INFRARED film in how the gray tones were SO dark on any color containing ANY degree of red pigment, the RED stars actually looked VERY dark-ALMOST black-in "gray-tone" value.
Of course, and MUCH better known of, was the case where the USA was told by the British that the Americans' next insignia, the famous "Star-in-Circle" emblem of the Golden Age era between the wars, COULD be misread as a German Eisernes Kreuz at a distance by mistake-so the USA, in late 1917, picked up the Imperial RUSSIAN "roundel" marking, but made the proportions MUCH more like a British RFC/RAF roundel-so there's TWO instances of "Russian insignia" being used on US warplanes in our nation's history!
I was FLOORED when I saw that WW I AERO photo of that Curtiss R-4 taking off in 1916, in the American Southwest, with what looked like SOVIET stars on its rudder and (I think) under its wing...if I EVER find that photo, I'll scan it and share it here at RCU with my fellow av-fans!
Yours Sincerely,
The PIPE!
And WHOOPS, PhillyBaby-the Messerschmitt 109 is CORRECTLY prefixed "Bf"...make NO mistake about it!!! Just ask me by Email about WHY this is true, and I'll explain...no kiddin' !
#58
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Originally posted by Tall Paul
The gratituous display of the symbol of German National Socialism is frequently interpreted as a hate crime.
.
Check my HOB Bf-109E sloper... not a stika in sight, and it doesn't lack anything of the plane or the era.
.
The gratituous display of the symbol of German National Socialism is frequently interpreted as a hate crime.
.
Check my HOB Bf-109E sloper... not a stika in sight, and it doesn't lack anything of the plane or the era.
.
I just love the "thought" police!
Todd
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Paul:
Why do you think that you're plane isn't missing something. I think it would look a lot better with the swastika's.
And why don't (or can't) you actually say swastika. A symbol is just that; a symbol. The same one can have many different meanings.
Why do you think that you're plane isn't missing something. I think it would look a lot better with the swastika's.
And why don't (or can't) you actually say swastika. A symbol is just that; a symbol. The same one can have many different meanings.
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A hate crime is real... at least in the eyes of the law in many countries. I didn't know if the US had them, so I googled "hate crime" - the first hit was an FBI site, so I guess such a thing is recognized in America. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm
All of which has nothing to do with model airplanes.
All of which has nothing to do with model airplanes.
#61
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Aren't all crimes "hate" crimes??? I think the people who don't like these scale markings WANT to be offended. Some people exist just to b!#ch and whine and try to ruin things for everybody else. No one is making you look at them. If you go to a scale event you know you will see these markings and be offended, so stay home. You gripe and moan and take the decals off of your plane, and that's fine. I'm sure you offend some scale enthusiasts by removing them. It's all a vicious cycle.
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! GO USA!!!!!!!!!!! GO USA!!!!!!!!!!!
IronZ
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! GO USA!!!!!!!!!!! GO USA!!!!!!!!!!!
IronZ
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General Lee
Gee I guess my plane, (see my avatar) would catch some slack in some locals but not in Northern VA, but it is after all patterned after the General Lee from the Dukes of Hazzard. I think we should definitely stick with History as it happened not how we would have liked it to happen. I happen to be a Civil War Buff and really get irked when we change history for the Political Correctness of the times. Keep the German insignias on German Planes just as they were. I used to do civil War re-enactments and was really surprised when some spectators got offend that the south actually used Rebel Flags In the re-enactment.
OK off my soap box now
Terry
OK off my soap box now
Terry
#63
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Symbols are important in that they have meaning. They can mean different things to different people. This thread is a fine example of that. I think it's important that we respect each other's opinions, because we're certainly not going to change them here. What goes on one man's model is really no business of mine. If a fellow club member had something I found offensive on his airplane, I'd either ignore it or ask him what it represents to him. Just because I see things one way doesn't mean he can't have a different perspective. There's room for disagreement on this.
All that said, I see little wrong with representing a scale model in the same way the full-scale was marked. Swastikas were part of the scheme. If a person wants their kit-bashed 4*40 to look like a German WW2 fighter, I'd not be upset to see a Swastika on it either. It isn't necessarily an endorsement of Nazis, anti-Semitism, or any other political/racial ideology. There's nothing wrong with admiring the equipement or men of the Luftwaffe. It's little different than admiring the RAF.
This thread is treading on thin ice. Please keep it civil, respect each other's opinions, and focused on the issue of accurate markings on scale/semi-scale RC models. Most everyone has done an admirable job thus far, and should be congratulated on expressing their views in a mature manner.
All that said, I see little wrong with representing a scale model in the same way the full-scale was marked. Swastikas were part of the scheme. If a person wants their kit-bashed 4*40 to look like a German WW2 fighter, I'd not be upset to see a Swastika on it either. It isn't necessarily an endorsement of Nazis, anti-Semitism, or any other political/racial ideology. There's nothing wrong with admiring the equipement or men of the Luftwaffe. It's little different than admiring the RAF.
This thread is treading on thin ice. Please keep it civil, respect each other's opinions, and focused on the issue of accurate markings on scale/semi-scale RC models. Most everyone has done an admirable job thus far, and should be congratulated on expressing their views in a mature manner.
#64
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Now how would you guys feel if I made my TF P-51 with German markings. Swastika's and all. I have seen photo's of captured allied aircraft that were repainted.
Would that be wrong or still okay.
Would that be wrong or still okay.
#65
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just out of interest does anyone usually give it much more than a few thoughts when putting german insignia on their aircraft???
Some people find the swastika offensive for things that happened in the past,
Can't we just repsect people opinions on this subject????
Some people find the swastika offensive for things that happened in the past,
Can't we just repsect people opinions on this subject????
#66
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As a German born and educated American I feel only Pride and Greatness in the Symbols of the former 3 rd. Reich and I am proud to display these on my Models.
Is it not strange that we forget the good and just remember the bad and ugly???
Is it not strange that we forget the good and just remember the bad and ugly???
#67
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The best place for the swastika is on the side of a scale P-51 or P-47.... in rows...
Irritates the **** out of some people!
And when they complain, tell them those represent "good" Germans.
Irritates the **** out of some people!
And when they complain, tell them those represent "good" Germans.
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Here's a link to a whole bunch of them: http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/capture.htm
#70
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Gentlemen, this is not a forum to debate the merits of history. I've removed several posts that have added nothing to the discussion about what is appropriate about models, and will remove any more that are made. Please excersise some restraint.
Some of you (Tall Paul and Cdallas2) are making blatant attempts to bait others. That stops here and now, understood?
Some of you (Tall Paul and Cdallas2) are making blatant attempts to bait others. That stops here and now, understood?
#72
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History is History. We cant change it. I agree, sone folks get offended when you say hello.
Keep 'em scale. Explain that you like the airplane, not the symbols and what they stand for. Just my 2 cents.
Keep 'em scale. Explain that you like the airplane, not the symbols and what they stand for. Just my 2 cents.
#73
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I think some people have got my views a bit mixed up so just to clarify...
I DO think its ok to have the swastika show on scale aircraft or used in educational purposes ec
It DOES offend me when you see people "rebelling" by grafitti-ing with swatstika's ect
I also apologise for my earlier posts regarding history of some countries, as you can see it is something i'm quite passionate about but i apologise for posting them up hear.
I DO think its ok to have the swastika show on scale aircraft or used in educational purposes ec
It DOES offend me when you see people "rebelling" by grafitti-ing with swatstika's ect
I also apologise for my earlier posts regarding history of some countries, as you can see it is something i'm quite passionate about but i apologise for posting them up hear.